Vvti Engine High Oil Consumption

[IKR]

I have a March 2001 Avensis, which has started drinking oil. I'm in the process of measuring consumption, but it's looking like about 1L/1000 miles. The car is almost 5 years old, 50K miles and has a full toyota service history.

I'm shortly going to approach the dealer, with the aim of getting a new engine block under the 'secret' extended warranty that I've read so much about on here. I wondered how many people have suceeded in getting this problem fixed under this warranty, and what approach they've taken to persuading the dealer to undertake the work. Are they likely to just do it, or will I need to park the car outside their premises, covered in posters explaining how reliable toyotas aren't?

Please let me know your advice.

I can't help thinking that if it wasn't for sites like this, manufacturers would get away with murder. How did we survive before the internet?

Thanks

Ian

[G6-R]

Take a look at tis TOPIC:

http://toyotaownersclub.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=35764

Good luck

[tubaman]

Take a look at tis TOPIC:

http://toyotaownersclub.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=35764

Good luck 

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Having gone through the process about 6 months ago - make sure you get your local dealership on your side !

[silverarrow]

best option is to refer to this site and also you may find they will say 5 yrs and 100k the main problem is toyota say max 1 litre per 600 miles which is mad see the oil consumption poll also oil is a limited product and oil burners are not green so is high oil consumption :ffs: :ffs:

a letter to what car will help

discuss your problems on a busy sales day ie sat or sun make sure you are not hushed to a quiet room

toyota will take your engine block number because they know which blocks are duff

would you buy another toyota ???? :( :(

ask for a bore wear measurement

good luck

[IKR]

Thanks for the advice. I should know the oil consumption rate by next week, so will make contact with the dealer. I can feel a fight coming on, as I really don't think that the suggested oil consumption rate of 1L/600 miles is reasonable. I don't think that needing to top up the sump every time you refill with fuel has been acceptable since about 1950.

Would I buy another Toyota? It depends. I understand exactly how these things happen, so if Toyota will take full responsibility for it, yes. If not, no way, and I'll be doing my best to make sure that everyone hears about it.

When I bought this car there was very little to choose between an avensis and a primera. The primera was cheaper, more economical and much nicer to drive. It was also a less pleasant place to spend time, had poorly thought out controls and felt cheap. I tend to run cars for for about 10 years, so was looking for something really reliable, and hadn't been too impressed by the reliability of my (75000 mile) Micra. I always thought that Toyota had a very good reputation for reliability.

It seems I was wrong. I only wish that this Avensis was as good as my old Rover 214 (1991) which I traded in for the Avensis. In 10 years & 100K miles it needed a few consumable parts, 2 wheel bearings and a rotor arm.

Even the Micra (which has never actually broken down) has only needed a few suspension bits, a couple of electrical repairs and 2 wheel bearings, having now done 90K miles. We seem to be saying that an Avensis is scrap (beyond economic repair) at 5 years / 50K miles.

If Toyota feel that this is acceptable, I'll do my best to make sure that they regret it.

Rant over!

Ian

[Starensis]

IKR, your comments are intesting regarding Toyota's reputation......

I have also owned Rovers & had nothing but problems with them. IMO they are poorly desgined & built, plus dealer service in poor at best!!

I worked both at Rover & Toyota and know which car I would buy every time.

I also own a 2001 VVT-I Avensis ( with oil burning issue ). I recently had it serviced & was advised that a new type of oil had been used. 3500 miles later, & the oil level is still on Max mark.

I believe they used 15W/40 Mobil 1 oil.

You have your Rovers & Nissans ( or Renaults as they are now ), I will keep to Toyota's thanks!!

You will get a new short engine with 1000m/per litre consumption. You just need to log your issue with TGB to speed things up.

[G6-R]

IKR, your comments are intesting regarding Toyota's reputation......

I have also owned Rovers & had nothing but problems with them. IMO they are poorly desgined & built, plus dealer service in poor at best!!

I worked both at Rover & Toyota and know which car I would buy every time.

I also own a 2001 VVT-I Avensis ( with oil burning issue ).  I recently had it serviced & was advised that a new type of oil had been used.  3500 miles later, & the oil level is still on Max mark.

I believe they used 15W/40 Mobil 1 oil.

You have your Rovers & Nissans ( or Renaults as they are now ), I will keep to Toyota's thanks!!

You will get a new short engine with 1000m/per litre consumption.  You just need to log your issue with TGB to speed things up.

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I thought the VVTI engines needed 10w 40 oil

[IKR]

Please don't misunderstand me - I really want to like this car. I've had it for 5 years, and want to keep it for at least another 5.

That's an interesting tip about the oil. Putting in a heavier oil is a classic trick for covering up a worn out engine.

Sorting through some old books last year, I found a book on maintaining Minis, printed in 1964. The gist of that book was that you should budget for a new / recon engine at 50K miles. I'm not sure that was really acceptable then, and it certainly isn't now, but it seems that a large number of Toyota owners are faced with it.

What proportion are failing do we think? Just a few, or a significant proportion?

Re Rovers, I can only say that mine (built 1991) was excellent all round. I know that the recent ones have poor head gaskets, but I'd rather replace a head gasket than everything below it.

I'm driving 500 miles this weekend, so will have measured oil consumption over 1K by early next week. Then it'll be into battle with the dealers. I have a horible suspicion that it's going to be using about 1L/1000 miles, which (from what I've read here), isn't enough to justify replacement (in their eyes).

We'll see.

Ian

[silverarrow]

ikr give them hell what car

the 5 yrs 100k is known about

i agree 1litre per 600 miles daft

but as for heavier oil please toyota you know that the manual states 5w 30 thus different oil why???

i agree worn engine with heavier oil means less oil used

but it is not a fix the egine will go bang :ffs: :ffs: :ffs:

[Black Knight]

Supposidly the problem with the rover engines (aluminium ones anyway) has been poor castings. They get bad porosity in them which causes localised hot spots. This softens the aluminium castings and relaxes the compression on the head gasket leading to leaks.

Problem is if you then go in and get the head gasket replaced and the joint faces skimmed it doesn't actually sort the problem. As soon as it starts running the problem begins to repeat itself.

Anyway, back to the topic.

If you look at the design of the rest of the ZZ engine you can tell it's designed to last much longer than 50-60k. If it's only designed to last that long why put in an expensive chained timing assembly that's designed to last over 100k if you're expecting to have to recondition it after 50k.

Best of luck but if Toyota are saying the spec is worse than 1 litre/600miles as a cut off level there's not much the dealer can do about it.

[Starensis]

The engine IS designed for 150,000 miles plus!!

The oil consumption is caused by thinning of the oil. This is due to "Blow-by" gasses in the sump.

It is a design fault which has now been corrected.

If your consumption is 1L/1000 miles I would personally hassle TGB. You will need your dealership to monitor it though. If they take your word & find bore measurements are within tolerance, you will get charged for the work.

Insist they top it up FOC & monitor.......

If it is excessive they will change the short engine!

Don't lose faith in your Toyota, they are still the most reliable cars on the road. This is backed up by all the surveys.

Sales are up for Toyota where all other Manufacturers are down. They are well placed now to be the largest Motor Manufacturer in the world. GM are in trouble!!

[silverarrow]

The engine IS designed for 150,000 miles plus!!

The oil consumption is caused by thinning of the oil. This is due to "Blow-by" gasses in the sump.

It is a design fault which has now been corrected.

corrected only on the new cars old blocks still have the design fault which a used car warranty will not pay for it is listed as an exclusion on most policies

we all feel toyota should do a recall they know the block numbers of the cars that are duff :P :P

some people with the 1.8 litre have had big ends go

so come on toyota

[Black Knight]

If what starensis says is true then it can't be a flaw that affects 100% of engines otherwise the motorway hard-shoulders would be littered with broken down Toyotas and there'd be an oil crisis as people had to refill every time they put petrol in. It actually appears to be a reasonablt low level problem (7-8 occurences on here?).

Based on what Starensis says then logic holds that Toyota DON'T know the engine numbers that problems will occur on. If they don't know the numbers how can they do a recall?

[silverarrow]

it is a known design fault fact low sulphur fuel and blow past gas its a bore wear problem which other car manufactures did a recall for

toyota take the block number because they know when they modified the block

so from 2000 to 2002 1.4 1.6 and 1.8 vvtis are likelt to be affected but the wear issue occurs at different miles ie stop start driving and high revs and not keeping the oil to the max increases the wear

some toyotas do 4 k a year so the bore wear issue will take time to show its self

it does not mean the problem is not present

so many people had company cars and are not bothered about a new engine or the costs also many customers change the car and the car falls out of main agent servicing

i have talked to many mechanics who have heard of loads of vvtis needing a new block and the customers just accept a cheaper quote and go ahead with it

only time will tell but the block has been modified ;)

[Starensis]

There was also an issue with cracks in cylinder head, but this was cured pre 2001 models.

The official line is that if the oil consumption is greater than 1L/1000 miles, then the short engine will be replaced.

This is however conditional on full service history & monitoring consumption by dealerships.

I agree with what most of you are about Toyota knowing the affected Engine No's & that they should recall all vehicles accordingly....

If you think about it though. Between 2001 & 2002 they built 120,000 vehicles.

It would be a major recall with this amount of vehicles + what would they do for the repair?

I doubt they would change all short engines without any indication the vehicle was defective.

At least, they should ask all dealerships to monitor all vehicles & top-up FOC. Mine is consuming 1L/2000 miles at the moment, which does not warrant any action. I have done 42,000 miles. I would like the satisfaction though that the dealership are monitoring & will take the neccessary action.

I think we all need to think about how we can get Toyota to respond to this issue, via this site. If this is a design fault ( which it is ), why do some engines burn more than others? It is unfair to replace an engine which has done 50,000 miles in 5 years & not an engine that has only done 20,000 in the same period.

Can we get Toyota to respond to this topic??

:ffs:

[Black Knight]

However if you look at your own thread that you started asking about peoples oil consumption there's a number of high mileage engines mentioned on there as not using a drop.

Also you're generally likely to hear about a problem but not so likely to hear about all being well (I've yet to see a thread stating "I've had my car 3 years and all the widgets are perfect")

Also as we mentioned before our understanding of the problems regarding sulpher levels in fuel differ somewhat. Did you ever speak to your mate regarding that?

Finally is your suggestion to recall every engine built between 2000 and 2002 on the off-chance that a small number of them might go wrong? How many engines would that be?

You do realise as well that the money to do that would have to come from somewhere and that would have to be added to the price of future sales hence the cost of your car would go up in turn.

You do not look after your customers by upping the price of their cars, calling x-many million cars back for (according to the number of people complaining on here) a low level problem that probably won't affect them (so long as it isn't dangerous anyway).

Actually what you do is precisely what it sounds like they've done and extend the warranty to catch those that do have a problem

[Black Knight]

Sorry, starensis. I must have been mid type when you posted :)

I think we're singing from roughly the same hymn sheet though

[silverarrow]

well put starensis do toyota have insurance for warranty claims like other companies or do they self insure????

the point of principle is the fault should not occur in the first place

we are alll aware that it is a manufacturing fault and a known issue and a fix is possible ie new short block

i am aware of several people who gave up and sold their cars but bought honda audi and mazda

so toyota lost in the end they also told so many friends work mates about the problems they had with toyota

i do not accept that its a limited problem its a problem with all just x miles has to be on the block before it is seen ie high miles to show

it would be interesting to know what has been modified and when??my friend from Shell is out of the country at present due back soon ;)

[Black Knight]

As far as I'm aware Toyota manufacturing warranty is covered by Toyota themselves but to be honest it doesn't matter if you insure against warranty or have the company cover it. You have to budget against either the insurance premium or put a pot of money aside to cover it. If you have a big warranty problem that pot has to be very big, if you have a big warranty claim on your warranty insurance the premiums will be big therefore the cost to cover that has to be added to the vehicles overhead to pass the cost to the customers.

It's just one of the reasons that Toyota are cheap compared to the likes of Mercedes. Mercedes build quality has been so poor over the past decade that they have to put quite a premium on the car to cover the warranty work.

I'm sorry to hear your friends were unhappy with Toyotas but does that limited number of lost sales make up for the cost of a recall. Starensis quotes 120,000 vehicles built and I think someone quoted 3200 quid on one of the oil consumption threads. 384 million quid against a loss of sales of what? 10 cars? maybe 200,000 quid.

It may be dependant on mileage but the data I'm seeing from here doesn't seem to show that. Again to reference back to one of your other threads some are high mileage, one sounds like only 600 miles (although we both asked for clarification on that one)

Give me a shout when you here back from your mate (PM or post on one of these threads). Always like to learn some thing new. Cheers

[Alexandkaren]

We have no idea how many cars have had this problem. Not everyone will have looked at this website who have bought an Avensis that has gone wrong.

The other thing is that it may be a bit early for people to realise that they even have a problem if you consider 12,000 miles annual average mileage.

Mine went wrong 58,000 miles, although I noticed oil consumption just before 50,000 and I don't drive slowly. Most Avensis I see are driven slowly and carefully so wouldn't be surprised if they will go slightly longer before this issue is picked up.

[silverarrow]

i agree with you so many cars are low miles and thus the oil is often diluted by condensation products many people state higher miles with fsh is better than low miles

i still think 5k oil changes are good for engines all my cars have had 5k changes

if i was in a company car than i would not give a hoot but its my money so it matters to me :D

a toyota that does just 5to 8 thousand miles a year will take time to show up oil consumption problems and so many will change the car anyway

my grandad did this

after all its faith in the product :hokus-pokus:

i have heard some dealers tell customers its normal to use oil ??? yes but how much?? and moreover they have been told they bed in ??

to an extent yes but after so many miles no way

modified parts because the fault is present

so as alex and karen have said time will tell

the point will come when the cost of the block is way past the cost of the car and i bet toyota will give a discount of a new car ???

but talk about bad cars and bad dealers means customers will go over to another company less sales for toyota

[Starensis]

My personal concern is that I will probably not reach 50,000 miles after five years.

What happens if the oil consumption accelerates post 50k & after the five year period. <_<

I guess I will be lumbered with a short engine change :ffs:

I always try to keep my mileage under 10k per annum, however, with this issue I guess I need to hit 50k before the end of next year. This way I will know if my engine has the fault.

The other option is to sell & buy something else.

My son has a 1998 fiesta 1.25L ( 35k). It doesn't use a drop of oil from one service to the next. Now that's what we all expect.........

[copperdog]

Hi Starensis,

Have read through these posts, very interesting. I would recommend that you read my post of 23rd September 2005 (currently on page 4) regarding my experience. I am now the happy owner of a non oil-burning Avensis !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[copperdog]

SORRY, Last post was for IKR Doh!!!!!!!!!!

[Milo]

I have a March 2001 Avensis, which has started drinking oil. I'm in the process of measuring consumption, but it's looking like about 1L/1000 miles. The car is almost 5 years old, 50K miles and has a full toyota service history.

I'm shortly going to approach the dealer, with the aim of getting a new engine block under the 'secret' extended warranty that I've read so much about on here. I wondered how many people have suceeded in getting this problem fixed under this warranty, and what approach they've taken to persuading the dealer to undertake the work. Are they likely to just do it, or will I need to park the car outside their premises, covered in posters explaining how reliable toyotas aren't?

Please let me know your advice.

I can't help thinking that if it wasn't for sites like this, manufacturers would get away with murder. How did we survive before the internet?

Thanks

Ian