Rav4 2007 D-cat Cylinder(s) Not Working Occasionally

[tomasandfilm]

Hi everybody,

I wish i did not have to add this new topic and could find the answer in other posts already!

The problem with my Rav4 130K D-CAT (bought new in June 2007) is that sometimes the engine starts acting as if 1-2 cylinders are not working. The car has 50.000km, and the defect has been repeating for the last 10.000km, usually every 2-3 thousand kilometers. The following happens:

1) some 3-10 minutes after starting with the cold engine, the engine loses power. It never happened during accelleration, rather when the engine was ~1.300rpm peacefully going through the neighbourhood on a third gear. Then I suddenly felt that the car was slowing down; if I applied more gas (pedal down), then the engine would start choking, the whole car would be shaking as if either injection timing had gone mad in some cylinders, or something like that (you don't feel the vibration so much if the rpm is higher than 3000). Therefore, the car could be driven only with rpm >3000, that applied to any gear, even the 1st one; otherwise, if there is any load on the engine, there is terrible vibration/detonation/explosions from the engine/exhaust system. This situation lasts for the whole trip. Maximum speed is only 140km, fuel consumption doubles. Even when the car is running at idle, you hear that the sound is not right; if you press the pedal on idle, the rpm goes up, however, even the handle of rpm indicator is shaking when it passes ~1500rpm. Important to note, the warning message on the display CheckEngine-CheckVSC-Check4x4 (cruise control does not work as well) does not come on immediately when the engine goes crazy. It did start blinking once, but only after I had driven the car some 50km already.

2) if I let the engine cool down and start it some 6 hours later, it works fine. It works fine for another 2-3 thousand kilometers, and then goes wrong again. If I happen to be close to my home, I just drop it off there and drive it later. However, it is a problem if I am travelling, and it occurs in the beginning of some longer trip:(

3) there may be some relation between this engine problem and the error message (CheckEngine...), but not clear exactly what. The first two times the problem happened, there were no error messages, but I drove the car only 10-15km, perhaps not long enough (~41.000km and 44.000km) For the third time (~46.000), the error message did come up after 50km. Next day in the morning, the engine was already fine, but the error message was still on. However, since I had to spot and switch off the engine on the way to Toyota service, even the message stopped blinking. The car was absolutely back in order! The dealer made the recording from the ECU (at least that's what I was told).

4) then, something different happened (46.500km): the error message started blinking (but the engine was fine) after driving some 160km distance on the highway; it came on when the engine was running at idle at the traffic lights. The engine was running fine all the time, fuel consumption and power were OK. Fortunately, the error message was still blinking on the next day, when I took it to Toyota, where they apparently reinstalled the ECU, which gave me hope for the better future (which did not come).

5) at 50.000km (I made a 1.000km non stop trip in the meantime), the same problem as in 1). No error messages blinking, but the engine goes crazy 5 minutes after starting the car. The problem persists throughout the whole 160km trip, but disappears after I leave the car for 6 hours.

The biggest problem is that I was never able to take the car to the dealer when the engine was going crazy. I don't think they imagine the extent of the problem, because "Toyota is a very good car, etc." Even I did not experience it so badly when I connected the spark plug cables in the wrong order on my first car some 20 years ago. At Toyota, first, they told me that fuel quality was bad (it never happened with my previous diesel car, which I had for 300.000km). OK, i bought the diesel additive from Toyota. The only other "repair" that was made was reinstalling the ECU. I pointed them out the possibility of an error with the mechanic cleaning of the EGR valve, however, they told that my car has an electronic one (it clicks 2-3 times after switching the engine off), and no errors where detected from the ECU readings.

My question is if anybody has any clue what is wrong? I do not now the construction of this engine well enough to judge where an answer could be. Is there anything I can do to "fix" the car if it happens on the road (e.g. reconnect the Battery so that the car "resets"). Obviously, the error has to do with some "self-maintenance" procedure which the engine does after certain mileage or number of hours. Which parts and sensors are involved in it? Could it be related with EGR valve or some other component, which I could suggest the dealer to inspect? I really would appreciate any comment or your feedback regarding this problem!

[anchorman]

Hi everybody,

I wish i did not have to add this new topic and could find the answer in other posts already!

The problem with my Rav4 130K D-CAT (bought new in June 2007) is that sometimes the engine starts acting as if 1-2 cylinders are not working. The car has 50.000km, and the defect has been repeating for the last 10.000km, usually every 2-3 thousand kilometers. The following happens:

1) some 3-10 minutes after starting with the cold engine, the engine loses power. It never happened during accelleration, rather when the engine was ~1.300rpm peacefully going through the neighbourhood on a third gear. Then I suddenly felt that the car was slowing down; if I applied more gas (pedal down), then the engine would start choking, the whole car would be shaking as if either injection timing had gone mad in some cylinders, or something like that (you don't feel the vibration so much if the rpm is higher than 3000). Therefore, the car could be driven only with rpm >3000, that applied to any gear, even the 1st one; otherwise, if there is any load on the engine, there is terrible vibration/detonation/explosions from the engine/exhaust system. This situation lasts for the whole trip. Maximum speed is only 140km, fuel consumption doubles. Even when the car is running at idle, you hear that the sound is not right; if you press the pedal on idle, the rpm goes up, however, even the handle of rpm indicator is shaking when it passes ~1500rpm. Important to note, the warning message on the display CheckEngine-CheckVSC-Check4x4 (cruise control does not work as well) does not come on immediately when the engine goes crazy. It did start blinking once, but only after I had driven the car some 50km already.

2) if I let the engine cool down and start it some 6 hours later, it works fine. It works fine for another 2-3 thousand kilometers, and then goes wrong again. If I happen to be close to my home, I just drop it off there and drive it later. However, it is a problem if I am travelling, and it occurs in the beginning of some longer trip:(

3) there may be some relation between this engine problem and the error message (CheckEngine...), but not clear exactly what. The first two times the problem happened, there were no error messages, but I drove the car only 10-15km, perhaps not long enough (~41.000km and 44.000km) For the third time (~46.000), the error message did come up after 50km. Next day in the morning, the engine was already fine, but the error message was still on. However, since I had to spot and switch off the engine on the way to Toyota service, even the message stopped blinking. The car was absolutely back in order! The dealer made the recording from the ECU (at least that's what I was told).

4) then, something different happened (46.500km): the error message started blinking (but the engine was fine) after driving some 160km distance on the highway; it came on when the engine was running at idle at the traffic lights. The engine was running fine all the time, fuel consumption and power were OK. Fortunately, the error message was still blinking on the next day, when I took it to Toyota, where they apparently reinstalled the ECU, which gave me hope for the better future (which did not come).

5) at 50.000km (I made a 1.000km non stop trip in the meantime), the same problem as in 1). No error messages blinking, but the engine goes crazy 5 minutes after starting the car. The problem persists throughout the whole 160km trip, but disappears after I leave the car for 6 hours.

The biggest problem is that I was never able to take the car to the dealer when the engine was going crazy. I don't think they imagine the extent of the problem, because "Toyota is a very good car, etc." Even I did not experience it so badly when I connected the spark plug cables in the wrong order on my first car some 20 years ago. At Toyota, first, they told me that fuel quality was bad (it never happened with my previous diesel car, which I had for 300.000km). OK, i bought the diesel additive from Toyota. The only other "repair" that was made was reinstalling the ECU. I pointed them out the possibility of an error with the mechanic cleaning of the EGR valve, however, they told that my car has an electronic one (it clicks 2-3 times after switching the engine off), and no errors where detected from the ECU readings.

My question is if anybody has any clue what is wrong? I do not now the construction of this engine well enough to judge where an answer could be. Is there anything I can do to "fix" the car if it happens on the road (e.g. reconnect the battery so that the car "resets"). Obviously, the error has to do with some "self-maintenance" procedure which the engine does after certain mileage or number of hours. Which parts and sensors are involved in it? Could it be related with EGR valve or some other component, which I could suggest the dealer to inspect? I really would appreciate any comment or your feedback regarding this problem!

Welcome to the club.

The problem you describe is not uncommon and is caused by the EGR valve sticking open. Here in the UK the warranty has been extended to 160k kms or 5 years but yours should be within the normal warranty terms anyway;

http://toyotaownersclub.com/forums/index.p...+valve+sticking

Good luck!

[tomasandfilm]

Anchorman,

Thanks for fast reply!

Two more questions regarding detecting the faulty EGR:

1 - Is the EGR error always recorded in the ECU, even when the error message (checkEngine etc.) is not displayed? If so, what is the error code?

2 - Otherwise, how can I prove to the smart Toyota dealers that it is the EGR that is faulty? Is there any official Toyota site which contains information for Toyota dealers, repair updates etc. that I could suggest these guys to look at?

[anchorman]

Anchorman,

Thanks for fast reply!

Two more questions regarding detecting the faulty EGR:

1 - Is the EGR error always recorded in the ECU, even when the error message (checkEngine etc.) is not displayed? If so, what is the error code?

2 - Otherwise, how can I prove to the smart Toyota dealers that it is the EGR that is faulty? Is there any official Toyota site which contains information for Toyota dealers, repair updates etc. that I could suggest these guys to look at?

Yes the code will be stored and it is 0400. To help you explain the fault to the dealer use this pdf;

4.3_P0400_DTC.pdf

This advises the dealer to reprogram the ECU to prevent such a failure but this has now been extended to changing the EGR which is free of charge to the owner and it is important that you let Toyota do the work because it will work out at around €700 for you to do it if the vehicle comes out of warranty. There is a new valve (part No 25620 - 26091) so don't accept that they clean the existing one.

To summarise, to fix your vehicle you need;

1. The ECM to be reprogramed

2. A new EGR valve.

.......both at no charge to you.

In the UK Toyota Customer Relations know about the campaign so if your dealer cannot find the information ask them to call TGB on

+44 1737 363633

If I can help further let me know.

ECU__ECM_Flash_EGR_valve_recall.pdf

[tomasandfilm]

Anchorman,

Thanks a million! I wish Toyota service technicians checked these forums to inform themselves regarding proper repair procedures:)

[tomasandfilm]

Hi Anchorman,

I am back again with the same old problem!

Toyota obviously has different policies in different countries, OR internal rules which discourage dealers from making costly warranty repairs, because nothing has been fixed on my car:( by the Toyota dealer. Each time, they say that there is no error in the ECU; the fact that the engine is choking/detonating does not seem to be registered as problem. It could well be that these guys have no experience with such a problem, however, they are fully certified Toyota/Lexus dealers, so should be competent, eh?

In any case, can you suggest any contacts to Toyota Europe or whatever central office that deals with warranty issues and customer support? Clearly, trying to sort it out with a dealer is a waste of time; most importantly, each time the engine starts vibrating and shaking, it is also damaging for the car (clutch + gearbox). That' is why I would like to get some directions or documentation from Toyota, so that I can bring it to louwman.cz together with my car and get them to fix it.

Thanks.

Anchorman,

Thanks for fast reply!

Two more questions regarding detecting the faulty EGR:

1 - Is the EGR error always recorded in the ECU, even when the error message (checkEngine etc.) is not displayed? If so, what is the error code?

2 - Otherwise, how can I prove to the smart Toyota dealers that it is the EGR that is faulty? Is there any official Toyota site which contains information for Toyota dealers, repair updates etc. that I could suggest these guys to look at?

Yes the code will be stored and it is 0400. To help you explain the fault to the dealer use this pdf;

4.3_P0400_DTC.pdf

This advises the dealer to reprogram the ECU to prevent such a failure but this has now been extended to changing the EGR which is free of charge to the owner and it is important that you let Toyota do the work because it will work out at around €700 for you to do it if the vehicle comes out of warranty. There is a new valve (part No 25620 - 26091) so don't accept that they clean the existing one.

To summarise, to fix your vehicle you need;

1. The ECM to be reprogramed

2. A new EGR valve.

.......both at no charge to you.

In the UK Toyota Customer Relations know about the campaign so if your dealer cannot find the information ask them to call TGB on

+44 1737 363633

If I can help further let me know.

[anchorman]

Hmmm

Well I'm afraid thatTGB seem to have changed their stance on this and are less willing to offer a "no quibble" warranty on the EGR. However, they are saying that the Toyota Centre should pass on the fault code to Toyota technical and they will advise on what can be done under warranty. There must be a Toyota Customer Relations department for you locally which you can usually get from a link on the sales website.

Your other option is to get a code reader (about €30 off ebay) and read it yourself to start with just so you know they are coming clean with you and just so they know you are not completely stupid! If you read the code I will tell you what it means. Most good local garages have a reader so they might do it for you at a small cost.

[tomasandfilm]

Thanks for response.

I found a couple of testers on ebay; I understand these should work for D-cat.

Which ones can be more useful - those devices that connect with computer and can display data from car sensors, or just simple standalone "two-button" scanners?

COMPUTER: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ELM327-USB-CAR-DIAGN...d#ht_2304wt_991

SIMPLE:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Toyota-RAV4-Compatib...e#ht_3384wt_940

OR: would you have something else to suggest?

Thanks, Tomas.

Hmmm

Well I'm afraid thatTGB seem to have changed their stance on this and are less willing to offer a "no quibble" warranty on the EGR. However, they are saying that the Toyota Centre should pass on the fault code to Toyota technical and they will advise on what can be done under warranty. There must be a Toyota Customer Relations department for you locally which you can usually get from a link on the sales website.

Your other option is to get a code reader (about €30 off ebay) and read it yourself to start with just so you know they are coming clean with you and just so they know you are not completely stupid! If you read the code I will tell you what it means. Most good local garages have a reader so they might do it for you at a small cost.

[anchorman]

Tomas

The "simple" one is perfect. I have that code reader and it works well.

Regards

[igormus]

Anchorman,

Thanks a million! I wish Toyota service technicians checked these forums to inform themselves regarding proper repair procedures:)

Hi MAte

I agree with you on 1000000000%

SOmetimes they do not follow the issue reason but only try to change parts etc :)

Good Luck/Igor