Toyota In Actually Quite Exciting Shocker!

[Norfolk n Chance]

[The 2ZZ-GE was the first N/A engine to produce 100bhp/litre.... something Honda couldn't manage...

Where did you hear that?

I'll try and find the article where it stated that.... i should've stated the first engine to produce over 100bhp/litre anyway...

[Leeky]

[The 2ZZ-GE was the first N/A engine to produce 100bhp/litre.... something Honda couldn't manage...

Where did you hear that?

I'll try and find the article where it stated that.... i should've stated the first engine to produce over 100bhp/litre anyway...

Thats still wrong then as the S2000 F20C engine came out before the 2ZZ and is nearly 120bhp per litre.

Didnt like the Red, so photoshopped a nice Thundergrey/gunmetal FT-86 for you all. Something a little nicer to look at :)

[SF695]

Correct. With emphasis on the two "fairlys"

What is missing is the virtually instant throttle response of having a short intake.

When they were designing the Mclaren F1, and looking for the ultimate engine, any forced induction engine was immediately discredited.

Ferrari Enzo, Ferrari FFX, Maserati MC-12, any Lambo, Porsche Carrera GT. All N/A. See my above example of the GT3.

Sure the big power cars like the Veyron and McMerc are forced induction, but they are more intercontinental balistic missiles for oil barrons and footballers, not track day tearers.

Anyway, off topic... Toyota have anounced the first mildy interesting car in years. Yes it is Too late and too many have moved on from the brand, but we should all praise them for this step in the right direction.

-And slate BMW for this

Not just the M badge but the hallowed "M1". 3 Cylinder Diesel and Hybrid?

Sure, the turbo has it's disadvantages, which is why it's only the best "replacement for displacement" and not the ultimate one. But without checking up on it, i suppose all those supercars you mention use a V12. A V12 can't be compared to a I4. They are much smoother, especially at high revs. Same goes for the I6 in your M3 and your previous Supra's. I'm just saying, that say i had to pick between the 2ZZ-GE and the 3S-GTE, just to take an example, i'd go for the 3S-GTE. Why? Because with it's turbo it delivers a fair amount of power, without going into an extreme rpm.

[Bibbs]

The Honda S2000 made 237bhp from 2 litres before the Celica Gen7 came out with the 2ZZ-GE making 189bhp from its 1.8.

I hate to say it .. but 247bhp (250ps) from 1997cc. This was in 1999.

But even better was a Nissan engine :

Nissan Puslar N15 VZ-RN1

1.6 litre and 200ps ..

It's not about the bhp per litre, because BHP is a function of torque and revs, all you need is a revvy bike style engine.

The problem is the maximum limit of about 80/90 lbft of torque per litre for an NA engine. This is the engineering limit.

At the moment it looks like a RWD Paseo. *shudder*

[SF695]

The Honda S2000 made 237bhp from 2 litres before the Celica Gen7 came out with the 2ZZ-GE making 189bhp from its 1.8.

I hate to say it .. but 247bhp (250ps) from 1997cc. This was in 1999.

But even better was a Nissan engine :

Nissan Puslar N15 VZ-RN1

1.6 litre and 200ps ..

It's not about the bhp per litre, because BHP is a function of torque and revs, all you need is a revvy bike style engine.

The problem is the maximum limit of about 80/90 lbft of torque per litre for an NA engine. This is the engineering limit.

At the moment it looks like a RWD Paseo. *shudder*

Torque can be achieved using longer stroke, which is one reason why diesels are torquey. Unfortunately, for a given displacement that would mean reducing the bore, which again means compromising rpm. One of the things i like about the 3S is that it's square, delivering a fair amount of both. IMO the best starting point for a 2 litre engine.

[KPARRIS-JONES]

Correct. With emphasis on the two "fairlys"

What is missing is the virtually instant throttle response of having a short intake.

When they were designing the Mclaren F1, and looking for the ultimate engine, any forced induction engine was immediately discredited.

Ferrari Enzo, Ferrari FFX, Maserati MC-12, any Lambo, Porsche Carrera GT. All N/A. See my above example of the GT3.

Sure the big power cars like the Veyron and McMerc are forced induction, but they are more intercontinental balistic missiles for oil barrons and footballers, not track day tearers.

Anyway, off topic... Toyota have anounced the first mildy interesting car in years. Yes it is Too late and too many have moved on from the brand, but we should all praise them for this step in the right direction.

-And slate BMW for this

Not just the M badge but the hallowed "M1". 3 Cylinder Diesel and Hybrid?

Sure, the turbo has it's disadvantages, which is why it's only the best "replacement for displacement" and not the ultimate one. But without checking up on it, i suppose all those supercars you mention use a V12. A V12 can't be compared to a I4. They are much smoother, especially at high revs. Same goes for the I6 in your M3 and your previous Supra's. I'm just saying, that say i had to pick between the 2ZZ-GE and the 3S-GTE, just to take an example, i'd go for the 3S-GTE. Why? Because with it's turbo it delivers a fair amount of power, without going into an extreme rpm.

That beemer=

[Norfolk n Chance]

I think we need a new thread to discuss engines now....

What do people think of the FT-86 from the info we have??

I much prefer it in Leeky's photoshop

[AE_92]

hmmm looks nice in that grey

[KPARRIS-JONES]

I think it looks amazing, I love it!

[SF695]

I think we need a new thread to discuss engines now....

What do people think of the FT-86 from the info we have??

I much prefer it in Leeky's photoshop

I think it looks nice. Now put the 2JZ-GTE in it. :)

[Leeky]

I want to see one with a 1LR-GEU in it :D 550BHP V10 Yeah! :D

[SF695]

I want to see one with a 1LR-GEU in it :D 550BHP V10 Yeah! :D

That's the engine in Lexus LF A ?

Let's take it a little easy. We want to afford this, don't we?

[Bibbs]

Torque can be achieved using longer stroke, which is one reason why diesels are torquey. Unfortunately, for a given displacement that would mean reducing the bore, which again means compromising rpm. One of the things i like about the 3S is that it's square, delivering a fair amount of both. IMO the best starting point for a 2 litre engine.

But there is still a limit of about 90 lbft per litre for an NA petrol engine.

[Karma Supra]

Bibbs is correct. At the currently level of technology 85-90 lbft seems to be the ceiling..

-It'll probably stay that way too as designers focus more on hybrid/alternatice power plants.

[SF695]

Bibbs is correct. At the currently level of technology 85-90 lbft seems to be the ceiling..

-It'll probably stay that way too as designers focus more on hybrid/alternatice power plants.

Then again, there is allways the turbo. Some of you may regard it as old technology, but it's still the most effective way to increase torque and bhp with for a given displacement. Or supercharger for those of you who don't like the lag. Less effective, but smoother.

Sorry, going of topic again, but i have to agree with those who find it strange to put an engine with less power than the 3ZR-FAE in a sport coupé in 2009/2010. A N/A Celica had more power back in the 80s.

[Bibbs]

Some of us want NA throttle response.

In which case to have NA and a lot of torque, you need a BIG engine.

[SF695]

Some of us want NA throttle response.

In which case to have NA and a lot of torque, you need a BIG engine.

True, very true. But you can hardly compare todays modern turbo cars with the turbos of they 80s. Large singleturbos, that didn't really kick in before 4000 rpm or more, compared to smaller, more responsive twin turbos. Seen the torque curve of BMW's 3.0 twin turbo? It's as flat as they get, from 1200 to 5000 rpm. A larger engine with the same output may be more throttle responsive, but i could live without that.

[bigshark]

so what is going to be then - the new celica, or the new corolla??

i would prefer if it was the new corolla coupe! noice :)

[Leeky]

According to AutoExpress.....the FT-86 is going to be 200bhp nasp and will carry the Celica name (Gen8).....this sounds a lot more realistic...

Being a flat 4 it has a short crank and low centre of gravity. Should be good for high rpm and good handling.

Gonna be a bit tougher to change spark plugs though.....

About time the celica got back to its roots like the supra's which took over the A platform...none of this fake FWD Coupe based on the Carina/Avensis T platform stuff we're had for the past 4 generations :P ;)

[bigshark]

could you photoshop me a one in a super red colour!? :D

[Norfolk n Chance]

According to AutoExpress.....the FT-86 is going to be 200bhp nasp and will carry the Celica name (Gen8).....this sounds a lot more realistic...

But... quite a lot of reports talk about the car that it took inspiration from... the Corolla AE-86...

Taken from an old blog...

Autoblog.com reported last monday (July 30th) that Toyota is in the process of forming a special committee dedicated to creating interesting cars, mainly because Toyota has no sports cars left in their current line-up. Lexus is of course working on some good stuff, i.e. the IS-F and LF-A, but since the MR2 and Supra, Toyota has only been supplying the non-performance section of the market.

So the time has come for the resurrection of the AE86, a Corolla coupe from the 80's. Japanese car magazine Best Car (Japanese language site) has pried loose some initial specs of the AE86:

•under 4m long,

•approximately 1,7 m wide,

•measuring 1,35m from the ground up,

•target weight lies under 1000kg,

•will most likely be powered by a 1,5 liter 2NZ-FE engine.

Toyota's new partner, Fuji Heavy Industries (or Subaru to most people) will be supplying the RWD drivetrain.

[SF695]

I like that part about the special committee. Present line-up leaves much to be desired. Lets just hope they come up with something interesting, that is affordable here. Why can't cars just have the same prices everywhere?

[Karma Supra]

Seen the torque curve of BMW's 3.0 twin turbo? It's as flat as they get, from 1200 to 5000 rpm.

This is getting boring now, so it's the last I'll say on it. I am really very aware of the BMW TT engine, Its !Removed! good, and it’s a very easy one to compare to the 3.2 N/A on my car, and done to death on BMW forums... (coincidently, the "new" turbo engine makes less bhp/litre than the old N/A, but that is irrelevent as is the fact that your beloved TT engine is in the 335i, but when they made the M3 they put an N/A in)

That engine in a lighter 1 series coupe (135i, awesome car) is a beast, faster than mine in a straight line sprint. With the performance brakes it even stops faster from speed too... but guess which one is quicker by a few seconds around a track, tested back to back with the same driver? If you want to drive in a SPORTY way, over all power is not as important as finesse, which is the point I have been trying to get across all along. Turbo can also be fun in a massive hit of power “lets tame this beast” kind of way, I have had all sorts of turbo cars, proper performance cars and talk from years of experience, and pounding the ring (oooh er). Do you track you Avensis often?

If stringent emissions and the green brigade mean we have to put up with turbos as the only way to have a remotely interesting car, then so be it. Until then we have great cars like the 997 GT3 to show use what a well balanced quick reacting drivers car should be, leaving its more powerful 997 turbo brother to flex it's proverbial muscles and let people with big watches and suit tops worn over T shirts brag about in London wine bars.

Now hopefully we can put this to bed... and acknowledge that Toyota are trying to step in the right direction here. About time too! The Flat 4 engine could potentially be mounted very low too, as long as the platform is not too like the Subaru 4wd version in which case it'll hover high in the engine bay to allow for a diff underneath, like the impreza. Low and behind the front axle, proper RWD setup LSD and not as floppy as the Gen 7 Celica and we could have another cult car!

Like then the “fast and the furious” came out, we all knew it was a crap movie... but it was a car movie... slag it off too much and less people will want to make more! I Hope Toyota make this, its fan !Removed!-tastic, people love it and they make more! Hell, If Toyota start making decent (read interesting) cars again I’ll buy one. Until then there is a generation growing up that has never seen a decent sporty Toyota. By the time they are all driving they will see the brand as one aimed at old people, boring people and company car fleets. I have said this all along! My generation? WE had Sega rally, stunning looking MR2s and lairy Supra turbos! – I’d say that explains why I have had 9 Toyotas.

[SF695]

I'm only saying that i like the approach taken by some european car makers, in this "green eara" using small turbos to awoid using larger displacement engines, as opposed to the Honda approach of highreving engines. Notebly Audi and Saab and now BMW seems to be getting on that train too. The Audi TFSI does have a turbolag, but it's so small that i could live with it. And since Toyota made some great turboengines in the past, i don't see why they can't use that option as well in the future. I for one, hope they will.

[AE_92]

now this is what it should look like

sorry for small size