The Great T180 Scandal.

[bothwell_buyer]

Toyota have a history of this going back many years - when the RAV was launched in the UK back in 1994, the only tyre made for it was a Dunlop and it was at the time a unique size. Back then a tyre cost £200 !!! We waited 6 weeks for a replacement windscreen back then as well.

In the same year I bought a Previa and surprise..... the tyres were a unique size with a replacement costing £200. I can now buy replacements for the Previa at well less than £100 !

Maybe all manufacturers do it?

[DaronB]

Chaps, As usual thanks for all your support.

I managed to catch a local tyre fitter at 1700hrs this evening who thinks he may be able to help. I have forwarded him DarenB's photo's and instructions so that he can see what I am after and he will let me know on Monday if he thinks he can do it. This in effect means that a nail in the tyre today could be costing up to £500 (my guess at the moment).

However, on a positive note, once these are replaced I will be able to keep the car on the road without being held hostage to these stupid tyres and Toyota!

Daren, if you do read this then many thanks for being so organised with the photo's!

No problem, tell the guy it's really straight forward, not difficult, the only small delay had was getting the last bits of the tyre edge off but it was only a 5 min delay. The whole operation took about 15-20 mins per wheel. By the way someone commented 'im not taking an angle grinder to my alloys' in fact because the run flat band sits well up off the alloy the grinder wheel should not touch the alloy, the guy who did ours used a small wheel grinder and was very careful stopping regularly to check he wasn't near the alloy. You can see in my photos after the band came off there wasn't a mark on the alloy but whoever is using the grinding wheel just needs to go slowly and carefully. Good luck.

[Davrav]

More like trapped rats than guinea pigs. They weren't experimenting, they knew exactly what they were doing.

Anchorman The T180 is a top of the range vehicle aimed at a different market than the rest of the Rav range and the RFT system is part of this strategy. Using the terms like trapped rats and guinea pigs is disingenuous to me, who is more than happy with the RFT system.

My wife is the main driver of the car and to know she is not sitting at the side of the road -day or night- with a flat is reassuring.This along with all the other safety kit, driver aids and four wheel drive when needed makes the T180 a very worthy car.

It's all very well having a 'Top of the Range' vehicle if you have a 'Top of the range wallet' but I am not sure that it is acceptable to become a hostage to a particular tyre manufacturer or dealer when it comes to repair.

The concept of the RFT is a good one from the safety point of view and other manufacturers have used a different approach fairly successfully. The Toyota system with the band is an adaption of a military solution where saving the tyre is secondary to saving the personnel - the tyre/wheel assembly becomes completely disposable in a combat situation I would imagine.

Carrying a spare wheel/tyre has been a long and succesfully proven solution to having a flat and, provided the spare is maintained and the driver is either able to change the wheel themselves or is a member of a motoring organisation, he/she would not be stranded for very long.

The Toyota RFT system has been trialled largely 'In the field' by owners who have had, as you say, some security in the event of a puncture or blow out but who have also been footing the development bill to a considerable extent and putting up with considerable inconvenience to boot.

The fact that Toyota seems to be moving away from this particular technology speaks volumes to me personally.

Ultimately though it all comes down to personal choice and 'horses for courses'

Just a shame that Toyota has not been completely transparent about the potential costs and drawbacks of the system and also that they don't seem to want to offer any help to those who want to rid themselves of it.

[anchorman]

More like trapped rats than guinea pigs. They weren't experimenting, they knew exactly what they were doing.

Anchorman The T180 is a top of the range vehicle aimed at a different market than the rest of the Rav range and the RFT system is part of this strategy. Using the terms like trapped rats and guinea pigs is disingenuous to me, who is more than happy with the RFT system.

My wife is the main driver of the car and to know she is not sitting at the side of the road -day or night- with a flat is reassuring.This along with all the other safety kit, driver aids and four wheel drive when needed makes the T180 a very worthy car.

Hi T180 Belfast

My previous reply may have been lost in all the others as this is always an emotive subject.

We are alike in that neither of us would compromise safety for the sake of money but it isn't the concept of these tyres that frustrates me it is the fact that they are not freely available in the aftermarket at a price that reflects the real cost of producing them. Our friend from Bridgestone came on and told us all the things that we wanted to hear in terms of development costs, servicing costs and the relaxation of this tie up with TGB. You have said that you can get them at what sounds like a much more reasonable price than many others here. This is a demonstration that all things are not equal unless we are to believe that considerable regional difference in price can be expected. The RAV in the USa is available with a V6 engine which is quite comparible with a T180 but the US marketing people have not seen it necessary to utilise this system and my feeling is that the US market place dictates that they would not be accepted. Is the vehicle any less safe or debased in terms of its position at the top of the range for not having them? I don't believe so.

I accept the T180 is a remarkable vehicle with matching performance and that the RFT concept can only enhance the package. What I cannot accept is that some owners are being fleeced for the cost of replacing them. I worked in the motor industry for many years and have attended the meetings where some bright spark wanted a notch or a lug that would make the replacement of pads impossible unless they were bought via them and this has that smell to me.

Just wait until one of the competitors comes up with a compatible product and see the prices tumble. That is when owners who then have a choice are likely to boycott the Bridgestone/TGB tie up and that is when they hopefully end up with egg on their face through not taking a measured approach to recovering the sytem costs.

[Taylor6971]

Guys,

Just to let you know the end of my saga...

I contacted the independent this morning and they said that after speaking to Bridgestone they couldn't remove the support ring. According to Bridgestone the support ring is an integral part of the wheel assembly and as such if removed lessens the strength of the wheel. I don't believe that for a minute! However this was enough to scare them away from doing the job.

So at this point I then bit the bullet and had the RAC come and collect the car and take it to Attleborough (24 miles away) to have the tyre changed. Fortunately Attleborough being one of the better Garage's keeps a tyre in stock and were able to do it this afternoon. So one new tyre fitted £217.50! The support ring thankfully was okay!

My next plan is to see if I can find similar looking alloys and then get all four changed, so for you Run Flat lovers, keep looking out on eBay if you want a spare!

On a serious note, this forum is an excellent place for advice, support and just to vent your anger. I may not always agree with what everyone says, but I am really happy to be part of a forum where we all feel comfortable to say what we are thinking.

Thanks again chaps

[bomber06]

I had the local independant garage come back to me today. They had spoken to the Bridgestone Health & Safety department and were told that they were able to remove the support ring, but I had to sign some sort of declaration/waiver and contact my insurance company to inform them that I had changed the original specification of the car.

BUT: They would charge me £40 per wheel to remove the support ring and then £150 for each new tyre. If i went for 4 tyres then that would be £760. Probably get a new set of wheels and tyres for that sort of money and recoup the cost by selling the wheels/tyres.

Just dont know what to do??

[MarsKy]

I had the local independant garage come back to me today. They had spoken to the Bridgestone Health & Safety department and were told that they were able to remove the support ring, but I had to sign some sort of declaration/waiver and contact my insurance company to inform them that I had changed the original specification of the car.

BUT: They would charge me £40 per wheel to remove the support ring and then £150 for each new tyre. If i went for 4 tyres then that would be £760. Probably get a new set of wheels and tyres for that sort of money and recoup the cost by selling the wheels/tyres.

Just dont know what to do??

I can't think why a support ring is required to strengthen the wheel. Yes - to support the tyre. But if the structural integrity of an alloy wheel is dependent upon a support ring (when every other cars' isn't), then I'd be worried - if I didn't think Bridgestone were talking bull. The waiver is a scare tactic. As is contacting your insurance company - that's none of Bridgestone's business.

Buy standard alloys and tyres and offset the cost by selling your T180 set.

My T180 gets its 2 year service at the end of the month. All this cr*p is seriously making me think of getting rid of my T180 (there's a nice Mercedes ML500 for sale in Hamilton...)

[anchorman]

I'm fairly sure the Bridgestone guy said that the wheel was standard and an ordinary tyre would fit. I think lots of cars are fitted with lower profile tyres and not sure the insurance has to get involved.

In the same thread there was a guy who had changed his wheels and tyres to standard and I think there was photos.

[DaronB]

I'm fairly sure the Bridgestone guy said that the wheel was standard and an ordinary tyre would fit. I think lots of cars are fitted with lower profile tyres and not sure the insurance has to get involved.

In the same thread there was a guy who had changed his wheels and tyres to standard and I think there was photos.

That was me and I can assure everyone here the T180 alloys are totally standard alloys, they are not made to suit a support ring, the support ring is made to fit the wheel! The same tyre used on them is also used on Lexus which don't have the run flat system.

Don't believe the scare tactics, removing them will not affect the safety or driving of the car at all, in fact if anything it improves the ride slightly (not as stiff on the road).

Also as another member here pointed out in Europe the T180 was sold with or without the run flat system and the wheels were the same. I think the wheels suit the car so why burn money by changing them ;)

Just buy a spare to keep in the boot in case you get a puncture.

[Pritch]

I'm sure someone paid over £400 for one a while back. Don't forget that they can damage your valve/tpms (sorry find that your valve has been damaged!! ;) ) when they replace the tyre, which could add another £100 odd to the bill. If I was in a position to change my car, I would.

Asking a daft question - I have Bridgestones on my Rav (02 reg 2.0 D4D), they look newish, not aware that they are anything other than normal tyres - would they be these run flat types - now hoping they are not !!

Nothing said re tyres when I bought the car from a garage !

Cheers

[duncerduncs]

Asking a daft question - I have Bridgestones on my Rav (02 reg 2.0 D4D), they look newish, not aware that they are anything other than normal tyres - would they be these run flat types - now hoping they are not !!

Nothing said re tyres when I bought the car from a garage !

Cheers

Don't panic!!

They are not run flats, run flats are only fitted to T180 and SR180 models

[Pritch]

Asking a daft question - I have Bridgestones on my Rav (02 reg 2.0 D4D), they look newish, not aware that they are anything other than normal tyres - would they be these run flat types - now hoping they are not !!

Nothing said re tyres when I bought the car from a garage !

Cheers

Don't panic!!

They are not run flats, run flats are only fitted to T180 and SR180 models

Niceone - thanks

[Big Kev]

I'm fairly sure the Bridgestone guy said that the wheel was standard and an ordinary tyre would fit. I think lots of cars are fitted with lower profile tyres and not sure the insurance has to get involved.

In the same thread there was a guy who had changed his wheels and tyres to standard and I think there was photos.

That was me and I can assure everyone here the T180 alloys are totally standard alloys, they are not made to suit a support ring, the support ring is made to fit the wheel! The same tyre used on them is also used on Lexus which don't have the run flat system.

Don't believe the scare tactics, removing them will not affect the safety or driving of the car at all, in fact if anything it improves the ride slightly (not as stiff on the road).

Also as another member here pointed out in Europe the T180 was sold with or without the run flat system and the wheels were the same. I think the wheels suit the car so why burn money by changing them ;)

Just buy a spare to keep in the boot in case you get a puncture.

Thanks to DaronB and Anchorman et all....I've read enough....I am now looking to purchase a small angle grinder for future use.

I will find a local guy nearer the time to jack the car up two wheels at a time and remove said apparatus, and I will remove the rings myself if need be.

ORMI and Anchs can expect some stupid questions re the "detecty pressure down sendery" things when I proceed.

Am particularly pleased re DaronB remark on slightly improved ride quality, which I find slightly "choppy" and had already blamed a bloody great steel band round my wheels before consultation with anybody. Mind you, the roads up here could lead to the closing of Catterick tank testing areas.

Cracking posting. Thanks to Taylor---- for starting(I also use one of your guitars.....marvellous!)

Big Kev

[chatman]

Asking a daft question - I have Bridgestones on my Rav (02 reg 2.0 D4D), they look newish, not aware that they are anything other than normal tyres - would they be these run flat types - now hoping they are not !!

Nothing said re tyres when I bought the car from a garage !

Cheers

Don't panic!!

They are not run flats, run flats are only fitted to T180 and SR180 models

Niceone - thanks

Could be the fact that a nice big spare wheel hanging on the back door of the RAV :unsure: ....as all those with run flats or sealant have no spare tyre. The 4.2 model RAV as voted the best looking RAV Model :P :P never had these fitted...

[DaronB]

As I said before just be really careful, take your time and stop regularly to to check and stop heat from building up. With care and patience it's a doddle ;)

[anchorman]

I'm fairly sure the Bridgestone guy said that the wheel was standard and an ordinary tyre would fit. I think lots of cars are fitted with lower profile tyres and not sure the insurance has to get involved.

In the same thread there was a guy who had changed his wheels and tyres to standard and I think there was photos.

That was me and I can assure everyone here the T180 alloys are totally standard alloys, they are not made to suit a support ring, the support ring is made to fit the wheel! The same tyre used on them is also used on Lexus which don't have the run flat system.

Don't believe the scare tactics, removing them will not affect the safety or driving of the car at all, in fact if anything it improves the ride slightly (not as stiff on the road).

Also as another member here pointed out in Europe the T180 was sold with or without the run flat system and the wheels were the same. I think the wheels suit the car so why burn money by changing them ;)

Just buy a spare to keep in the boot in case you get a puncture.

Thanks to DaronB and Anchorman et all....I've read enough....I am now looking to purchase a small angle grinder for future use.

I will find a local guy nearer the time to jack the car up two wheels at a time and remove said apparatus, and I will remove the rings myself if need be.

ORMI and Anchs can expect some stupid questions re the "detecty pressure down sendery" things when I proceed.

Am particularly pleased re DaronB remark on slightly improved ride quality, which I find slightly "choppy" and had already blamed a !Removed! great steel band round my wheels before consultation with anybody. Mind you, the roads up here could lead to the closing of Catterick tank testing areas.

Cracking posting. Thanks to Taylor---- for starting(I also use one of your guitars.....marvellous!)

Big Kev

Recognise these Kev? This is the new 18" wheel - it just has a gunmetal colour and uses conventional tyres;

........and don't worry about the TPMS. It will continue to work and in any case we can get rid of that!

[duncerduncs]

Just a quick word of warning...

The Yokohama Geolandar G91 in size 235/55R18 is currently only available in the USA :)

[anchorman]

Wheels are the same design though duncs - I was looking at them on an SR recently.

[local hero]

Wheels are the same design though duncs - I was looking at them on an SR recently.

There are loads of 235/55/18 tyres I found some Yokohama G0 51 but why Yokohama? General grabber used by Chatters + Hoovie are available for under £100 in that size Stew

[chatman]

General grabber used by Chatters + Hoovie are available for under £100 in that size Stew

:unsure: I have Bridgestone's on mine now...but have a GG tyre as the spare....ooh did I say SPARE TYRE :P :P :P and mine are 235/55 R60 in size.....

[Big Kev]

I'm fairly sure the Bridgestone guy said that the wheel was standard and an ordinary tyre would fit. I think lots of cars are fitted with lower profile tyres and not sure the insurance has to get involved.

In the same thread there was a guy who had changed his wheels and tyres to standard and I think there was photos.

That was me and I can assure everyone here the T180 alloys are totally standard alloys, they are not made to suit a support ring, the support ring is made to fit the wheel! The same tyre used on them is also used on Lexus which don't have the run flat system.

Don't believe the scare tactics, removing them will not affect the safety or driving of the car at all, in fact if anything it improves the ride slightly (not as stiff on the road).

Also as another member here pointed out in Europe the T180 was sold with or without the run flat system and the wheels were the same. I think the wheels suit the car so why burn money by changing them ;)

Just buy a spare to keep in the boot in case you get a puncture.

Thanks to DaronB and Anchorman et all....I've read enough....I am now looking to purchase a small angle grinder for future use.

I will find a local guy nearer the time to jack the car up two wheels at a time and remove said apparatus, and I will remove the rings myself if need be.

ORMI and Anchs can expect some stupid questions re the "detecty pressure down sendery" things when I proceed.

Am particularly pleased re DaronB remark on slightly improved ride quality, which I find slightly "choppy" and had already blamed a bloody great steel band round my wheels before consultation with anybody. Mind you, the roads up here could lead to the closing of Catterick tank testing areas.

Cracking posting. Thanks to Taylor---- for starting(I also use one of your guitars.....marvellous!)

Big Kev

Recognise these Kev? This is the new 18" wheel - it just has a gunmetal colour and uses conventional tyres;

........and don't worry about the TPMS. It will continue to work and in any case we can get rid of that!

Hi Anchorman,

Yep...them's the wheels I've got, albeit I prefer the all over alloy rather than the darkened centre. Saw them on a branny the other dat at Mr.T.

Thanks for note on TPMS.

bIG kEV.

[Stupidmia]

Just picked up my Rav4 from the local dealer today having had my discs skimmed and the Service Manager (who is always pretty helpful) brought up the subjects of the dreaded Runflats....they do not have the gear to do them and have had to take them in a van to a North East dealer in the past, so he told me he had been in discussions with a local tyre centre (Haven Tyres, Lillyhall) to see if they would consider purchasing the gear. So far, they haven't agreed to do it...however, they took out the support rings on a couple of wheels (I'm certain he said 1hr labour for two wheels) and have said they will offer the service in the future!

Looks like an option for me in the future....I would get the compressor/gunk should I have a proper flat.....but I will leave the TPMS connected (I realise that the gunk blocks them and they cost ££s to replace) but I've got to look at the number of punctures people get these days and think that even if I get one, there is a chance it will be a slow one and be picked up by the TPMS, thus allowing me to pump it up a bit and simply go direct to nearest tyre centre for repair/replacement (before needing to add the gunk).

Seems a pretty sensible option for me.

I expect it would have been a different story if the dealer had the gear...but they haven't and they do need to support customers who have bought Rav4s with RFTs.

[Plutus]

It's strange (ha ha) that Toyota have not insisted all dealers have the equipment.

Usually to be an official dealer of an international motor company your showroom and service facilities have to meet their minimum standards otherwise you lose the franchise.

I don't have a T180 but did ask about run flats at my local dealership and they don't have the facility either.

Do you think Toyota have been treating this as an expirement? (can't find a cynical smilie)

[Stupidmia]

It must be down to the number of cars with RFTs they sell locally....it won't make good business sense if they only get 2 or 3 in a year for new tyres. Now the RFTs are going to be phased out (i.e. Toyota binning them and owners removing support rings/changing alloys) it wouldn't make sense to buy the gear now.

For the ones who bought the equipment and scammed customers in the early days (when they insisted the ring was always replaced)....soon enough, they are going to have to offer set price deals to change tyres (and not charge by 2 hrs labour) to try and coax people in and perhaps make them reconsider about doing away with the BSR (and get some use out of the equipment before it becomes redundant kit).

[Taylor6971]

Hi again

Isn't it amazing the variety of stories that we have all been told about these run flats. I don't doubt for a minute what anyone has said on here, but I have Bridgestone telling my local tyre fitter one thing, another fitter something different and then a Toyota franchise actually removing them. So much for them being "an integral part of the wheel assembly".

I think I may contact trading standards over this and ask them to get involved. This is beginnining to feel like dealing with Arthur Daily rather than Bridgestone and Toyota.

Regardless of your feeling for the actual device, this lack of clear and honest guidance on these is shameful!