Chevrolet Volt

[fuel miser]

Due to be launched in the UK later next year. 150bhp electric motor and combined economy figure of 176mpg. Based on an Astra platform - the car to save Vauxhall?

http://www.autocar.co.uk/CarReviews/FirstD...lectric/246503/

I believe the Volt works in EV mode all the time, a 1.4 petrol engine is utilised only to recharge the batteries. I hope it's sensibly priced.

[cootuk]

I wonder how many will break because an engine part has seized through lack of use, or bad petrol that's been sat in the tank for months without stabiliser? The four seats limits the market for families as well.

[phil4]

I wonder how many will break because an engine part has seized through lack of use, or bad petrol that's been sat in the tank for months without stabiliser? The four seats limits the market for families as well.

Got to love that review "Should I buy one? Yes....". I mean I appreciate the average joe bloggs doesn't get very far when doing a test drive, but should autocar really recommend buying one based on a short brief drive that didn't test very much (no petrol, no hills)?

Things that would concern me are more along the lines of how the car drives when using the petrol engine, how smooth the switchover is, and what the drive is then like. I'm not Mr Average, but my normal daily commute of 40 miles, is just on the edge of it's EV range, and a good few times a month I have to travel well over 100 miles. So I'd definitely want to know what it was like once the Battery was drained.

It's good to see all these technologies coming along, variations and alternatives, but all will have their own upsides and downsides. Once proper road tests are done.

[phil4]

Thinking about this more, surely the 176mpg is irrelevant......

With a Prius the only fuel you put in, is petrol... so 72mpg is as good as you'll get.

With the Volt, I may only have to put a gallon of petrol in every 176miles, but, that'll not be it, for that 176miles, I'll also need to put some electricity in. Which has an associated cost too (financial and pollution).

I'm sure it won't be long, before the marketing dept. manage to figure out that if they can manage the MPG test on EV only, then they can claim Infinite MPG!!!!

So surely we need some sort of better comparison tool? Pollution/mile, or Cost/mile or similar. Not easy to work out. Best would be something that equates the electricity to the petrol cost or polution, so we could keep MPG. Otherwise would need applying to all cars.

Sorry, what I'm saying is the 176mpg quoted, cannot be used as a direct comparison with your average petrol or diesel car.

[Grumpy Cabbie]

Thinking about this more, surely the 176mpg is irrelevant......

With a Prius the only fuel you put in, is petrol... so 72mpg is as good as you'll get.

With the Volt, I may only have to put a gallon of petrol in every 176miles, but, that'll not be it, for that 176miles, I'll also need to put some electricity in. Which has an associated cost too (financial and pollution).

I'm sure it won't be long, before the marketing dept. manage to figure out that if they can manage the MPG test on EV only, then they can claim Infinite MPG!!!!

So surely we need some sort of better comparison tool? Pollution/mile, or Cost/mile or similar. Not easy to work out. Best would be something that equates the electricity to the petrol cost or polution, so we could keep MPG. Otherwise would need applying to all cars.

Sorry, what I'm saying is the 176mpg quoted, cannot be used as a direct comparison with your average petrol or diesel car.

If it had 5 seats and a bigger boot I'd have one or the electric Laguna sized car Renault aim to release next year. All the bigger electric cars just seem to have 4 seats (3 passengers) which seems to restrict their market a little. Bring on the plug in Prius though I hope I misread the Battery range at 13 miles :(

Some interesting times ahead for motoring me thinks.

[Fujisan]

The four seats limits the market for families as well.

And from what I read those two back seats are not very comfortable / spacious anyway, more Corsa sized!

So, yes, not very family friendly.

The other point against the Volt / VX Ampera will be the price. I seem to remember a figure of £25 - 26K going around a while ago, when it was first introduced. That's quite a chunk of wedge.

Some interesting times ahead for motoring me thinks.

Oh, yes. Interesting times indeed.

[The Traveller]

Plug-in cars are not the green alternative for a pollution-free future. Unless that electricity is itself pollution-free at the point of production.

Coal-fired, gas-fired, oil-fired = plenty of CO2.

Nuclear = waste.

Even wind turbines, solar panels and wave energy; machines are used to make those components. Machines that need polluting electricity to run.

And does anyone believe that their domestic electricity bill will go down if they plug the car in to recharge overnight? We're all grumbling at the rises in our domestic energy bills, now someone thinks that we're going to start adding the car-charging to those bills.

I'm amazed at the hype surrounding plug-ins as a realistic alternative. They aren't there yet and given the limitations of Battery capacity it'll be another generation at least. (please forgive the generation pun)

[Grumpy Cabbie]

Plug-in cars are not the green alternative for a pollution-free future. Unless that electricity is itself pollution-free at the point of production.

Coal-fired, gas-fired, oil-fired = plenty of CO2.

Nuclear = waste.

Even wind turbines, solar panels and wave energy; machines are used to make those components. Machines that need polluting electricity to run.

And does anyone believe that their domestic electricity bill will go down if they plug the car in to recharge overnight? We're all grumbling at the rises in our domestic energy bills, now someone thinks that we're going to start adding the car-charging to those bills.

I'm amazed at the hype surrounding plug-ins as a realistic alternative. They aren't there yet and given the limitations of battery capacity it'll be another generation at least. (please forgive the generation pun)

And your solution is what exactly? walk? horse drawn carriage?

[The Traveller]

Morning GC. It opens a can of worms, doesn't it?

Horse drawn carriage? Romantic, but impractical, even dangerous, in the era of the internal combustion engine.

Walk or cycle? Certainly for local needs.

More and better public transport, including the humble hansom cab? Yes, if it reduces the sheer quantity of vehicles on the roads at certain times of day. But trains are chock-full and hideously expensive, buses and coaches are cheaper, but still packed to bursting at key times. The biggest single failing of public transport is inconvenience. We've all become accustomed to using our cars, to travel when we want from departure to destination at places and times of our choosing. Public transport simply isn't convenient enough to meet our expectations (N.B. not our needs, but our expectations). The car fulfills all these requirements and the only way to separate us from the automobile is to make it impossibly expensive to use, by taxing us out of our cars. The fuel protests of 2000 put that notion to rest, no politician will vote to tax us out of our cars. Congestion is another bugbear as someone who used to do around 60k miles a year for work. I'd partly solve that by forcing Goods Vehicles to stay off the roads at peak times by law.

But back to the point; there's a lot of hype building up around plug-ins, even amongst the knowlegeable and well-informed members of this forum.

My point was that, even if we start seeing these appear on the streets in the next handful of years their range is seriously limited by the current (oh God, another pun) state of technology. And moreover the cost of recharging them is only going to go up as the price of electricity inexorably rises. The days of cheap energy are gone. Most people use one car for a range of needs, to commute to work, pop to town for shopping, travel on holiday and visit friends and rellies. The utility of a car with a severely limited range in such a variety of scenarios is not good. Should we then have an electric 'town car' for short range work and a fossil fuel car for medium and long range needs? Maybe, but who's paying for us to double our family car needs? Where shall we keep our 2nd or even 3rd cars, there's already not enough frontage on our street of terraced houses for one car per house to be parked on the road (the houses are 12' wide, the cars probably average 14' long) and no off-road parking space? Where is the recharging infrastructure?

One solution is telecommuting, but 'the Boss' doesn't trust the workers to actually get on and do the job unless he can see their faces in the office. It needs a cultural change in the workplace for that to happen, although it is already practical possibility for large numbers of us. Less traffic, less congestion, less pollution, smaller office requirements (reducing office-space, heat and light requirements and saving companies money), more free time in your day, less stress from travelling, faster average travel for those who do use the roads. It's a no-brainer, except for the office-based culture.

My personal opinion about renewables? Build tidal barrages on every major river estuary in the UK. You only have to consider what resources we have in this area; Solway Firth, Moray, Tay, Forth, Thames, Severn, Morecombe Bay to name but a few. A substantial part of our energy needs can be met reliably this way. Wind is unreliable and solar too, in the UK. But the tides aren't going away. You know exactly when they are ebbing and flowing, flow rates and the potential for power generation. The complaints of the eco lobby in this area should be dismissed. Given the choice between reliable tidal power or CO2 / wind turbines / more gas - oil - coal stations I know where I'd vote.

[johalareewi]

Bring on the plug in Prius though I hope I misread the battery range at 13 miles :(

I think you are right - i have read figures of around 15 to 20 miles and speeds of up to 60mph in EV mode.

Did you see the telegrah article?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/car-ma...ius-review.html

[Grumpy Cabbie]

Morning GC. It opens a can of worms, doesn't it?

My personal opinion about renewables? Build tidal barrages on every major river estuary in the UK. You only have to consider what resources we have in this area; Solway Firth, Moray, Tay, Forth, Thames, Severn, Morecombe Bay to name but a few. A substantial part of our energy needs can be met reliably this way. Wind is unreliable and solar too, in the UK. But the tides aren't going away. You know exactly when they are ebbing and flowing, flow rates and the potential for power generation. The complaints of the eco lobby in this area should be dismissed. Given the choice between reliable tidal power or CO2 / wind turbines / more gas - oil - coal stations I know where I'd vote.

Wow wasn't expecting such a huge response. I think cabs are the way forward but am slightly biased ;)

I think electric cars are a good step in the right direction, they cut local air polution (diesels are horrid even with all the particle filters attached) and can be charged from a renewable source depending where their owner gets their electricity. Perhaps there should be an obligation to only use renewable electricity if you own an EV? or at least at council run charging points etc? Lets see if our glorious councils practice what they preach so loudly and see if they install charging points - perhaps with free parking attached? I'll believe it when I see it though.

Getting back to subject, I think tidal has a future but will they ever be built in the UK? I doubt it very much. There will be too many protesters complaining about everything from lack of mud flats for birds to God knows what. The Daily Mail readership will be up in arms and it'll just drag on through the courts and nothing much will happen.

I did read about the solar powerplants they're thinking of making en masse in Northern Africa to transmit power to Europe. Total cost to supply Europe - £200 billion. A drop in the ocean compared to the money we have thrown away to the banks (who appear to be dreaming up more bizarre ways to charge for their services) Amazing that countries in North Africa can get their act together, yet we are just one big talking shop where nothing ever gets done. Am I getting cynical in my old age?

[wooski]

There are several points here that help the Prius plug-in in practical terms:

1. The Lithium Battery can charge up and discharge power at a much higher rate than the standard Battery. This allows not only stronger acceleration (so EV mode can cope with keeping up with normal traffic which the standard car can't) but also stronger re-gen - so you will gain more energy from braking than is now possible.

2. The issues with electric generation are totally true. However, in the middle of the night there is an electric generation problem as electric useage falls dramatically yet some power stations need to keep running. Most charging can be made to take advantage of this cheaper electricity that would otherwise be wasted to recharge their PHV's. And remember - most users who plug in will not have totally exhausted their Battery, so a 3 or 4 hour charge will be enough.

3. I would expect some owners to move to micro-generation from a variety of sources that will help recharge their PHV. This technology will get alot more sophisticated fast.

4. Toyota has to solve the issue of getting the sunroof to recharge the battery. OK - more useful for those in Arizona and the Med perhaps but still worthwhile. I believe they tried this on the Gen 3 and they had issues - which is why they diverted the energy to helping keep the car cool. Still saves some energy and makes for a more comfortable car but a little bit disappointing never the less.

Onto the Volt. I suspect that the engine on the Volt will run at a single most efficient speed which will be mighty odd for passengers. It's also far too small - one of the reasons I bought a Prius was that I wanted a full 4 seater that was big enough to comfortably take my parents in the back, a job the Prius does well. A Volt just wont cut it I suspect.

[cootuk]

Quite a few on the Priuschat forum have solar cells and could quite easily power an EV with their surplus

http://priuschat.com/forums/environmental-...tml#post1041066

[elliotsdad]

Things that would concern me are more along the lines of how the car drives when using the petrol engine, how smooth the switchover is, and what the drive is then like. I'm not Mr Average, but my normal daily commute of 40 miles, is just on the edge of it's EV range, and a good few times a month I have to travel well over 100 miles. So I'd definitely want to know what it was like once the battery was drained.

From my understanding of the technology used in the Volt, the petrol engine is never actually used to propel the car as it is in the Prius, but only to recharge the Battery when it is low. Therefore, one assumes that there will be no 'switchover' as such since the car is always driven by the electric motor. So the question should really be 'how noticeable is the petrol motor when it is running to recharge the Battery?' Since it is always being driven by the electric motor, I cannot see that it should be noticeable in the drive per se.

However, i could be totally wrong on this..... :D

[phil4]

Things that would concern me are more along the lines of how the car drives when using the petrol engine, how smooth the switchover is, and what the drive is then like. I'm not Mr Average, but my normal daily commute of 40 miles, is just on the edge of it's EV range, and a good few times a month I have to travel well over 100 miles. So I'd definitely want to know what it was like once the battery was drained.

From my understanding of the technology used in the Volt, the petrol engine is never actually used to propel the car as it is in the Prius, but only to recharge the Battery when it is low. Therefore, one assumes that there will be no 'switchover' as such since the car is always driven by the electric motor. So the question should really be 'how noticeable is the petrol motor when it is running to recharge the Battery?' Since it is always being driven by the electric motor, I cannot see that it should be noticeable in the drive per se.

However, i could be totally wrong on this..... :D

That's a good point, and in that case the thing of concern, is indeed the effect of the petrol engine. I guess it's possible, that the petrol engine may not be able to charge the Battery as quickly as power is drawn if travelling at high speed/accelerating quickly. So it could perhaps limit speed and acceleration. On the flip side, as you say, you may not even notice. Just a shame the review made no mention and didn't test it.

[timberwolf]

2. The issues with electric generation are totally true. However, in the middle of the night there is an electric generation problem as electric useage falls dramatically yet some power stations need to keep running. Most charging can be made to take advantage of this cheaper electricity that would otherwise be wasted to recharge their PHV's. And remember - most users who plug in will not have totally exhausted their battery, so a 3 or 4 hour charge will be enough.

I'm curious how is the energy wasted? Do the power stations just dump the waste energy as heat? Apart from the electricity generation that is used to pump water up a hill into a reservoir, I am guessing the national grid can't accept excess electricity?

[Grumpy Cabbie]

Things that would concern me are more along the lines of how the car drives when using the petrol engine, how smooth the switchover is, and what the drive is then like. I'm not Mr Average, but my normal daily commute of 40 miles, is just on the edge of it's EV range, and a good few times a month I have to travel well over 100 miles. So I'd definitely want to know what it was like once the battery was drained.

From my understanding of the technology used in the Volt, the petrol engine is never actually used to propel the car as it is in the Prius, but only to recharge the Battery when it is low. Therefore, one assumes that there will be no 'switchover' as such since the car is always driven by the electric motor. So the question should really be 'how noticeable is the petrol motor when it is running to recharge the Battery?' Since it is always being driven by the electric motor, I cannot see that it should be noticeable in the drive per se.

However, i could be totally wrong on this..... :D

That's a good point, and in that case the thing of concern, is indeed the effect of the petrol engine. I guess it's possible, that the petrol engine may not be able to charge the Battery as quickly as power is drawn if travelling at high speed/accelerating quickly. So it could perhaps limit speed and acceleration. On the flip side, as you say, you may not even notice. Just a shame the review made no mention and didn't test it.

Surely the engine will be powerful enough to generate enough electricity to power the motors. This is how some trains work. It would be a terrible oversight if it couldn't.

[The Traveller]

2. The issues with electric generation are totally true. However, in the middle of the night there is an electric generation problem as electric useage falls dramatically yet some power stations need to keep running. Most charging can be made to take advantage of this cheaper electricity that would otherwise be wasted to recharge their PHV's. And remember - most users who plug in will not have totally exhausted their battery, so a 3 or 4 hour charge will be enough.

I'm curious how is the energy wasted? Do the power stations just dump the waste energy as heat? Apart from the electricity generation that is used to pump water up a hill into a reservoir, I am guessing the national grid can't accept excess electricity?

Ex-National Grid employee.

Hi Timberwolf,

It's all done via scheduling. Each day is split into 30 minute periods. Demand forecasting starts one year before the time of demand and is reviewed on a constant basis, right down to ITV telling Grid exactly when the commercials in Corrie will start (to the second) and end so they can provide a boost for all the kettles going on and off. This continues until the moments before a 30 minute window opens.

All generators declare well in advance what gensets they will have available for each 30 min period and how much power each one can supply. They also declare how much they will charge per MegaWattHour for that genset to provide that power. A unit within National Grid assesses the expected demand for a specific period, looks at the available generation & associated prices and places contracts for the generation to meet the demand, starting with the cheapest gensets and working towards the highest price. When they place enough contracts to meet the demand then any generator whose price was above the cut-off point supplies nothing and gets nothing. So it's a fully competitive blind dutch auction. There are constraints in the system, most generation is in the North and Scotland and the highest demand is in the Home Counties, but there are only a finite number of pylon lines for bringing energy South from the Trent and Humber.

There is a 'base demand' overnight, at a surprisingly high level, mostly from industries which never 'cool down' like steelmaking. By and large the nuclear stream plus other assets support the base load, then as demand waxes and wanes other assets are brought on and off. Immediate spikes are catered for by fast run-up assets like the large hydro schemes in North Wales, if the spike looks set to continue then assets like gas-fired are ordered and brought online. The cost of using these standby assets is far higher than the usual contracted prices, so they're used only in absolute necessity.

The reason that Economy7 electricity is cheaper is to encourage use of assets overnight, when the demand is smaller and the wholesale price is much lower.

The only energy wasted is in tranmission (from power station to substation) and distribution (from substation to your house). About 7 - 10 % disappears whilst in the cables on the pylons. And you're spot on in speculating about the hydro reservoirs. If used then they are pumped back 'uphill' overnight, when the cost of running those electric pumps is at its lowest. And also correct that there is no store for electricity, in the way that gas and water can be stored for future use.

Graphical information about supplied energy (in GigaWatts) over the last 7 days, last 24 hours and in realtime can be found on the Grid website at;

http://www.nationalgrid.com/uk/Electricity/

And use the three hyperlinks over on the right hand side of that page.

Economy7 and PHV's? Hmmmmmmm. I suppose it's feasible and probably the cheapest way to charge up.

[fuel miser]

This article has some more info about the Volt, INCLUDING THE PRICE!!!! :(

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/carreviews/fi...rolet_volt.html

[wooski]

Economy7 and PHV's? Hmmmmmmm. I suppose it's feasible and probably the cheapest way to charge up.

Yes Economy 7 - alot will use that. It was the cheaper early morning stuff I was referring too.

Dont some nucleur stations have to be kept running tho? We will end up with more of these I'm sure.

[wooski]

This article has some more info about the Volt, INCLUDING THE PRICE!!!! :(

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/carreviews/fi...rolet_volt.html

£35K. I'm not surprised.

I cant help thinking that current lithum batteries are not the long term solution. I know many are working on better soltions - with 1 being mentioned in the press a few years ago. I'm sure Battery technology will evolve like everything else.

Why dont crystals work like in Sci-Fi???

[Fujisan]

The other point against the Volt / VX Ampera will be the price. I seem to remember a figure of £25 - 26K going around a while ago, when it was first introduced. That's quite a chunk of wedge.

Seem's I was being a bit optimistic with £26K :(

£35,000! :censor: Hell's bell's, they're having a laugh! :shutit:

You would have to do some serious miles or keep it a very long time to make any kind of saving with it.

And we know you can't do either of those thing's, because being from G- :censor: -M, it will start to fall to bit's within weeks of leaving the factory!

And what's all that rubbish about turning the ignition key AND then pressing a start button! :ffs:

One or the other, not both please.

Dear God, that is shocking price, can't get over that!

[Grumpy Cabbie]

The other point against the Volt / VX Ampera will be the price. I seem to remember a figure of £25 - 26K going around a while ago, when it was first introduced. That's quite a chunk of wedge.

Seem's I was being a bit optimistic with £26K :(

£35,000! :censor: Hell's bell's, they're having a laugh! :!Removed!:

You would have to do some serious miles or keep it a very long time to make any kind of saving with it.

And we know you can't do either of those thing's, because being from G- :censor: -M, it will start to fall to bit's within weeks of leaving the factory!

And what's all that rubbish about turning the ignition key AND then pressing a start button! :ffs:

One or the other, not both please.

Dear God, that is shocking price, can't get over that!

But maybe it depends on how many miles you do as to whether it will pay for itself. Though at £35k you'll probably need to drive to the moon and back every year to make it pay!

I think it'll make sense in America as they get government subsidies for such vehicles. Perhaps our government should put its money where its mouth is and either subsidise these sorts of cars rather than blow our hard earned tax money on those hundreds of useless adverts that they presently fill our tv's and radios with.

[timberwolf]

Economy7 and PHV's? Hmmmmmmm. I suppose it's feasible and probably the cheapest way to charge up.

Yes Economy 7 - alot will use that. It was the cheaper early morning stuff I was referring too.

Dont some nucleur stations have to be kept running tho? We will end up with more of these I'm sure.

It was an interesting post on electricity distribution but I do wonder about the efficiency of only buying 30 minutes of electricity from a power station, what do the nuclear and coal fired power stations do with all that steam if they don't win the bid for the next 30 minute slot? When I drive my Prius on short trips, I get lower mpg because of the penalty of heating up the petrol engine for most of the journey, on a long trip the mpg goes up because the heat up penalty occurs at the beginning of the trip and many more of the miles are with an engine that has already got up to operating temperature.

I vaguely recall a trip from college to the Drax power station, I don't remember much other than it was a coal fired power station, and that my lecturer wore a light grey suit.

[Fujisan]

I vaguely recall a trip from college to the Drax power station, I don't remember much other than it was a coal fired power station, and that my lecturer wore a light grey suit.

I bet the suit didn't stay light grey at coal fired power station!