New Prius, Mpg Con?

[the punisher]

OK what’s the deal, 59 plate prius

all the sales bumf say 70mpg its all over the show room in the brochure

real life 45 at worst -55mpg at best

eco button make not the slightest bit of difference, car is driven smoothly trying to balance the graph in the eco zone for max efficiency.

I like the car as a whole, but can not help but feel conned as I could have spent far less on a straight diesel car and ended up with the same MPG.

So what gives… ?

Speak to Toyota and they say its cos its cold and I have the heating on etc etc… well why you are not told this when you buy the car that the 70mpg is clearly achieved under lab condition not real life condition.

Joel

[spacenase]

Congratulations, you've fallen into the economy trap that all of the manufacturers use. You'll probably find a disclaimer in the small print of the brochure that the quoted figures may not be achievable in real life.

You're right that the mpg figures are worked out in laboratory conditions, the theory being that you get a repeatable result that can be used for comparison. Two things to bear in mind, the manufacturers are likely to set up the test cars to give the optimum performance, and the hybrid technology on the Prius skews the results since it can do most of the test on Battery power. You are unlikely to get the quoted mpg figures on any car.

The trick is to research the car before you buy, by checking out other owners views and findings on the internet. I did this before I bought my Gen II Prius and therefore expected the 45 - 55 mpg that I'm getting.

The only consolation is that you'd be lucky to find a diesel car of a similar size that gives you free car tax. This may make up for it, depending on your mileage.

KEITH.

[Grumpy Cabbie]

OK what’s the deal, 59 plate prius

all the sales bumf say 70mpg its all over the show room in the brochure

real life 45 at worst -55mpg at best

eco button make not the slightest bit of difference, car is driven smoothly trying to balance the graph in the eco zone for max efficiency.

I like the car as a whole, but can not help but feel conned as I could have spent far less on a straight diesel car and ended up with the same MPG.

So what gives… ?

Speak to Toyota and they say its cos its cold and I have the heating on etc etc… well why you are not told this when you buy the car that the 70mpg is clearly achieved under lab condition not real life condition.

Joel

Where have you been the last couple decades? This is not just a Prius issue. I thought it was common knowledge that the manufacturers figures should be taken with a pinch of salt as they are based on a test route in ideal conditions and are done on a rolling road. I have driven many, many, many different cars and have worked out that I usually get about 2/3's the fuel economy advertised. You will find that the same applies to BMW, Citroen, Ford etc. I have actually had 70 mpg out of my Prius on a long motorway run at 65mph but my normal town figures are about 48 mpg. This is still a heck of a lot better than I got previously out of diesel cars of similar size.

I find that the eco button does make a little difference in town, not a great amount, but a few extra mpg which is handy if you don't need the extra speed.

I hear what you're saying about getting a modern diesel, but again the advertised fuel economy will probably be much higher than real life driving. Toyota haven't done anything wrong, they have complied with a set test procedure as laid down by the EU. The Americans have a difference test procedure and their fuel economy figures do bear more resemblance to real life - the US Prius figures are 51mpg town & 48 mpg highway.

Finally, the Prius gets worse fuel economy in winter/cold conditions due to the engine having to run more to provide heat to the cat and the cabin heater. In summer it should improve somewhat. This is oposite to normal cars which use more in summer when the a/c is sapping power.

Hope this helps answer some of your concerns.

[Fujisan]

I like the car as a whole, but can not help but feel conned as I could have spent far less on a straight diesel car and ended up with the same MPG.

And you really think a diesel will achieve the laboratory test mpg in the real world!

I've drived diesel's and I know you have to try very hard to get anywhere near them.

Two second example: Happen to have a copy of BMW Car magazine next to me. For a couple of long term cars they have a 520d touring and an X3 2.0d. Currently they are getting 40 and 35 mpg respectively. BMW test figures say they will achieve 53.3 and 43.0 mpg respectively.

Plus you don't have any of the crap, modern common rail diesel drivers have to put up with:

Blocked EGR valves.

Blocked DP filters.

Blown turbo's.

Failed injectors.

HP fuel pumps / suction valves failing.

DM flywheels going bang (expensively)

The list goes on..........

Bottom line, if you try really hard with the Prius (this summer, when it is warm) you might get near or even exceed the 70 mpg figure. It is possible, because ordinary folk in the States tell us on Priuschat that they have done just that

Also factor in where you live (hills etc.) and the type of traffic you drive in, both will reduce mpg.

The Americans have a difference test procedure and their fuel economy figures do bear more resemblance to real life - the US Prius figures are 51mpg town & 48 mpg highway.

I think they are the smaller US gallons, 50 US mpg is about 60 UK mpg.

Plus our 72 mpg figure is I think a conversion from litres/100km because the tests were carried out to a mainland European standard.

[Sagitar]

OK what’s the deal, 59 plate prius

all the sales bumf say 70mpg its all over the show room in the brochure

real life 45 at worst -55mpg at best

eco button make not the slightest bit of difference, car is driven smoothly trying to balance the graph in the eco zone for max efficiency.

I like the car as a whole, but can not help but feel conned as I could have spent far less on a straight diesel car and ended up with the same MPG.

So what gives… ?

Speak to Toyota and they say its cos its cold and I have the heating on etc etc… well why you are not told this when you buy the car that the 70mpg is clearly achieved under lab condition not real life condition.

Joel

Have a look at this website for official consumption figures

There are standardised tests that are used to arrive at the figures quoted in government tables and which manufacturers use as the basis for the mileage figures quoted in sales literature. The terms used in the sales literature e.g. "extra urban", "combined" etc. are direct references to the government data tables - they are not some fanciful invention of the manufacturer.

It is impossible to produce a single set of figures that will replicate the results achieved by individual drivers, but the use of standardised tests gives a reasonable chance to compare vehicles on a like for like basis. The site makes comments on the relevance of the test figures to every day driving, it also gives some comments on the way that the tests are carried out.

I would guess that some vehicles will be flattered by the tests by reason of their design. It isn't difficult to imagine designers working to produce a set up that is aimed specifically at good performance under the conditions of the government tests, but all-in-all it is probably as fair a system for comparison as any other.

I think it is fair to use the figures to make a judgement about the comparitive performance of two different vehicles that you are considering, but don't expect to get the same figures as are achieved under the government test conditions, unless you drive in a way that exactly replicates the tests . . . . .

Having said all of that, there are undoubtedly diesel vehicles (and indeed some petrol vehicles) that will give better consumption than the Prius.

Several of the vehicles that return better mileage than the Prius are smaller vehicles and wouldn't meet my needs for that reason - your needs may be different. There are diesel vehicles of similar size that will give better consumption figures, but emission regulations have resulted in the fitting of particulate filters that are troublesome if your driving is mainly urban (as mine is). If most of your driving is at motorway speeds, and fuel consumption is a matter of high priority, then you might well have been better served by a diesel vehicle.

I cannot resist pointing out that the data are readily available and the time to consider them is before you spend your money.

[Chris Dance]

I am well pleased with my 02 Prius Spirit 57 plate . It gave me 65 MPG last August. For the majority of the time I get about 55 MPG; this cold winter it is 46 MPG. That is better than my neighbours Vauxhall which is diesal. I am well pleased with my Prius. My sons Prius gets flogged between UK and the French Alps regularly and he is getting over 50MPG. It has never faltered in the long journeys and with snow tyres on in the mountains it performs well.

[phil4]

I'm like the others above. I never expected to get 70mpg, I just used it as as a comparison between cars.

I've managed 67mpg. I see 70mpg as a target, a challenge, but certainly not expecting it.

I'm glad there's something we can use as a comparison, personally.

If you did genuinely expected to get 70mpg, then I'd also suggest you watch out for the widely used word "upto" in advertising.

I'd also suggest you try a) different driving techniques, and B) different routes, roads and traffic conditions. You'll see with both of these that the mpg can vary wildly, and you may even see it go up up up.

[avensis99]

OK what’s the deal, 59 plate prius

all the sales bumf say 70mpg its all over the show room in the brochure

real life 45 at worst -55mpg at best

eco button make not the slightest bit of difference, car is driven smoothly trying to balance the graph in the eco zone for max efficiency.

I like the car as a whole, but can not help but feel conned as I could have spent far less on a straight diesel car and ended up with the same MPG.

So what gives… ?

Speak to Toyota and they say its cos its cold and I have the heating on etc etc… well why you are not told this when you buy the car that the 70mpg is clearly achieved under lab condition not real life condition.

Joel

to give you a direct comparison between a diesel and a prius read the following:

i have the use of both a diesel and a hybrid and the average mpg for both over the same test route (journey to work and back, @ 30 round trip mix of main a roads and motorway) is as follows:

yaris 1.4 TR 57 plate sub 10k miles 50 - 52 mpg

prius gen 3 tspirit 59 plate sub 4k miles 45 - 50 mpg

those figures are based on the yaris used in mixed temps and the prius being used since new in september.

to give a wider ranging idea of economy the best acheived from the yaris since new on a long motorway run is 70 mpg.

and for the prius is 65 mpg on a long motorway journey also since new.

hope that this you some ideas and comparisons.

[Seamaster73]

On the other hand, it's the same laboratory conditions that are producing the ultra-low quoted emissions figures that save you in tax. ;)

[hertsnminds]

And you really think a diesel will achieve the laboratory test mpg in the real world!

I've drived diesel's and I know you have to try very hard to get anywhere near them.

The Verso I drive has a brochure quoted combined MPG figure of 44.8, over the first 14 months of ownership I have achieved an overall figure of 45.87MPG. This is mixed motorway and town driving, some weeks just short journeys other times trips of over 400 miles.

In my previous cars a Citroen C4 over 28 months of driving I achieved 48.19MPG, the quoted MPG figure was 47.1. Fiat barchetta urban MPG quoted as 28.5 over 44 months of driving the figure I achieved was 34MPG.

I don't think you can expect to match quoted figures on one tank of fuel but you should be able to come close to the combined MPG figure during the time you own the car (between 2 - 5 years).

[the punisher]

I see this situation in exactly the same light as the Broadband speed saga a few years back where all ISP in there advertising was by law required to add the words 'UP TO' to the speeds they were quoting e.g up to 8mb.

I can not believe the motor industry has been allowed to quote MPG figures for decades that any cars if they are often not achieved in real life. I have heard before that figures in the broachers’ are to be taken with a pinch of salt…. But seriously how are they still getting away with it? No matter how you dress it up its false advertising, also applies to BHP, 0-60 times, etc all change in real life situation.

Joel

[wooski]

It is a LEGAL requirement in the UK for Toyota to quote the EU tests. All car makers have to do this and they all use the same test - that way you as the consumer can compare different cars.

No one is getting away with anything.

I'm seeing around 50mpg in this weather but saw over 60mpg in the summer. Temperature makes a big difference.

[Fujisan]

The Verso I drive has a brochure quoted combined MPG figure of 44.8, over the first 14 months of ownership I have achieved an overall figure of 45.87MPG. This is mixed motorway and town driving, some weeks just short journeys other times trips of over 400 miles.

In my previous cars a Citroen C4 over 28 months of driving I achieved 48.19MPG, the quoted MPG figure was 47.1. Fiat barchetta urban MPG quoted as 28.5 over 44 months of driving the figure I achieved was 34MPG.

Well done You must be an exceptional driver

But I think you will agree with me on two points:

Firstly, you are in the minority of drivers (using any fuel type) who can get near the official figures. And the vast majority of drivers struggle to achieve even 80% of the official figure.

Secondly, the internet is littered with CR diesel owners moaning about their lastest expensive breakdown.

I was talking to a friend in work not so long ago. He drives a Mondeo TDi and every year for the past few years, once a year, he has had to dig out the exhaust gas recirculation valve Next time, he vow's to return to petrol power!

BTW, why were you driving the Barchetta economically, they should be driven for fun! :D I know that's how I'd drive it if I had one. ;)

I can not believe the motor industry has been allowed to quote MPG figures for decades that any cars if they are often not achieved in real life. I have heard before that figures in the broachers’ are to be taken with a pinch of salt…. But seriously how are they still getting away with it? No matter how you dress it up its false advertising, also applies to BHP, 0-60 times, etc all change in real life situation.

Joel

It is a LEGAL requirement in the UK for Toyota to quote the EU tests. All car makers have to do this and they all use the same test - that way you as the consumer can compare different cars.

Has Wooski says it is a legally required standard test for all cars in the EU. I think the trouble is the test is conducted over a very short distance so this distorts the figures for hybrids and range extenter cars like the Chevy Volt.

The Volt is quoted at 186mpg but this is only because most of the test will have been conducted on Battery power alone, before the ICE ever needed to fire up.

Maybe instead of seeing how many litres of fuel is used over a certain distance of the official rolling road route, a fairer test would be to put 20 litres of fuel in the car and see how far it goes (constantly repeating the official RR route). That way the effect of the first 40 miles on Battery power would be diluted.

[hertsnminds]

Well done You must be an exceptional driver

No special driving technique, no hypermiling. One of the reasons I chose the Verso is that it is one of the few seven seater cars under £20k that has a 0-60 time under 10s (not the new shape) and I have annoyed a couple of MX-5 drivers pulling away from roundabout exits faster than they can.

BTW, why were you driving the Barchetta economically, they should be driven for fun! I know that's how I'd drive it if I had one.

Always for fun, dropping a gear for every bend and besides the power only kicks in above 4,000 revs on the barchetta engine. :)

[The Traveller]

You're right that the mpg figures are worked out in laboratory conditions, the theory being that you get a repeatable result that can be used for comparison. Two things to bear in mind, the manufacturers are likely to set up the test cars to give the optimum performance

Spot on. If you read the fine print you'll discover that the test cars are a 'Basic' model of the car, not publicised, not available for general sale. In other words it's a totally stripped down version, probably without a lot of the interior. You will also find that you can contact them and ask to purchase such as Basic model and they are obliged to sell you one, so it must meet the Law as regards safety etc. I don't suppose they've ever sold a single one......

[Sagitar]

If you read the fine print you'll discover that the test cars are a 'Basic' model of the car, not publicised, not available for general sale.

Can you give me a reference to the "fine print" please? I would very much like to read it.

[The Traveller]

If you read the fine print you'll discover that the test cars are a 'Basic' model of the car, not publicised, not available for general sale.

Can you give me a reference to the "fine print" please? I would very much like to read it.

Gladly. I refer you to the official Toyota brochure publication, number GBNGV-079PR-VB July 2009. Page 44, footnotes where it reads;

" The fuel consumption and CO2 figures are measured in a controlled environment, in accordance with EU legislation EC 715/2007 as last modified by EC 962/2008, on a basic production vehicle. For further information or if you are intersted in buying a basic production vehicle, please contact Toyota Motor Europe NV/SA. The fuel consumption and CO2 values of your vehicle may differ from those measured. Driving behaviour as well as other factors (such as road conditions, traffic, vehicle conditions, installed equipment, load, number of passengers... ) play a role in determining a cars fuel consumption and CO2 emissions. "

A copy of said publication is next to me as I type this.

[Sagitar]

If you read the fine print you'll discover that the test cars are a 'Basic' model of the car, not publicised, not available for general sale.

Can you give me a reference to the "fine print" please? I would very much like to read it.

Gladly. I refer you to the official Toyota brochure publication, number GBNGV-079PR-VB July 2009. Page 44, footnotes where it reads;

" The fuel consumption and CO2 figures are measured in a controlled environment, in accordance with EU legislation EC 715/2007 as last modified by EC 962/2008, on a basic production vehicle. For further information or if you are intersted in buying a basic production vehicle, please contact Toyota Motor Europe NV/SA. The fuel consumption and CO2 values of your vehicle may differ from those measured. Driving behaviour as well as other factors (such as road conditions, traffic, vehicle conditions, installed equipment, load, number of passengers... ) play a role in determining a cars fuel consumption and CO2 emissions. "

A copy of said publication is next to me as I type this.

Thank you, but that is significantly different from what you said - i.e. " 'Basic' model of the car, not publicised, not available for general sale".

The footnote refers to a "basic production vehicle", which I take to mean a production vehicle that has not been specially modified or prepared.

Further up the same page, there are differing figures for specific models - i.e. with and without the solar roof. The provision of these differing figures is difficult to reconcile with your interpretation of the situation.

The UK responsiblity for testing for fuel consumption lies with the Vehicle Certification Agency - the same body that deals with homologation. I find it very difficult to believe that they would accept for fuel consumption testing a vehicle that did not comply with their own homologation requirements.

What manufacturers may say about petrol consumption in their advertising is regulated by the VCA and what follows is an extract from their documentation. If you really believe that Toyota is perpetrating a confidence trick then I suggest that you ought to inform the VCA.

"It is the intention that the 'model' should be a description recognisable to consumers by

reference to the way vehicles are badged, e.g. Ford Focus, and obvious characteristics of the

vehicle e.g. 1.8 litre diesel engine, five speed manual gearbox. Manufacturers may wish to

specify further detail such as trim/tune level, body type e.g. TDCi 4 door saloon. The

descriptions used for each entry in the guidebook ('New Car Fuel Consumption and Emissions

Figures' published by VCA) are a good example of how models should be described. The aim is

to make the consumer's choice easier, not more difficult.

Where specifications of vehicle with differing fuel consumption and CO2 figures are grouped

together within one model description, for each parameter, the worst figures from all

specifications in the group must be displayed. For example there may be 5 different

specifications of vehicle within a model description, each with a different figure for CO2

emissions, urban, extra-urban and combined fuel consumption. The figures displayed on the

label for this model should be the worst CO2 figure, the worst urban fuel consumption, the worst

extra-urban fuel consumption and the worst combined fuel consumption regardless of whether

the worst figures for each parameter come from different vehicles within the group.

It is not acceptable to choose to show the best figures for the model, or the figures relating to

the vehicle on display, if another specification of the same model, as described on the

poster/label, has worse figures. Checking that the right figures are displayed could ultimately

require liasing with the manufacturer, but cross-referencing figures on labels with those on

posters, on the VCA's web site www.vcacarfueldata.org.uk and in promotional literature should

usually be sufficient.

[DrCez]

Some good comments/answers above.

The bottom line is that the Prius is best in class for petrol consumption and it's worth noting that even when the Prius is compared with efficient diesel models it does better on CO2 emmisions because diesels emit more per litre of fuel. Also, websites like fuelly can give an alternative guide to real life figures.

I find the following bit of marketing material more interesting (from Toyota's UK website) as it is extrapolating the official consumption figures to a real life situation:

"Class-leading fuel economy - Up to 716 miles on a single tank of fuel"

The Discover Prius video even highlights some suggested routes in Continental Europe, e.g. from the north of France to Monaco (about 680 miles by my reckoning).

To achieve 716 miles in one tank you would need to:

1. achieve a somewhat challenging 72.4 mpg for the whole journey;

2. ignore the low fuel warning light and beep which I gather comes on when there is about 8 l left, i.e. for the last 127 miles assuming 72.4 mpg;

3. risk damaging the fuel pump (and other components?) by running the fuel tank until empty.

That said, I don't really have a problem with the above (it is no doubt possible to achieve more than 716 miles on a single tank of fuel): at the end of the day we all have to look beyond the sales talk when making a purchase decision, and there is legislation in place to help curb some of the excesses of the marketing men.

[The Traveller]

If you read the fine print you'll discover that the test cars are a 'Basic' model of the car, not publicised, not available for general sale.

Can you give me a reference to the "fine print" please? I would very much like to read it.

Gladly. I refer you to the official Toyota brochure publication, number GBNGV-079PR-VB July 2009. Page 44, footnotes where it reads;

" The fuel consumption and CO2 figures are measured in a controlled environment, in accordance with EU legislation EC 715/2007 as last modified by EC 962/2008, on a basic production vehicle. For further information or if you are intersted in buying a basic production vehicle, please contact Toyota Motor Europe NV/SA. The fuel consumption and CO2 values of your vehicle may differ from those measured. Driving behaviour as well as other factors (such as road conditions, traffic, vehicle conditions, installed equipment, load, number of passengers... ) play a role in determining a cars fuel consumption and CO2 emissions. "

A copy of said publication is next to me as I type this.

Thank you, but that is significantly different from what you said - i.e. " 'Basic' model of the car, not publicised, not available for general sale".

The footnote refers to a "basic production vehicle", which I take to mean a production vehicle that has not been specially modified or prepared.

Further up the same page, there are differing figures for specific models - i.e. with and without the solar roof. The provision of these differing figures is difficult to reconcile with your interpretation of the situation.

The UK responsiblity for testing for fuel consumption lies with the Vehicle Certification Agency - the same body that deals with homologation. I find it very difficult to believe that they would accept for fuel consumption testing a vehicle that did not comply with their own homologation requirements.

What manufacturers may say about petrol consumption in their advertising is regulated by the VCA and what follows is an extract from their documentation. If you really believe that Toyota is perpetrating a confidence trick then I suggest that you ought to inform the VCA.

"It is the intention that the 'model' should be a description recognisable to consumers by

reference to the way vehicles are badged, e.g. Ford Focus, and obvious characteristics of the

vehicle e.g. 1.8 litre diesel engine, five speed manual gearbox. Manufacturers may wish to

specify further detail such as trim/tune level, body type e.g. TDCi 4 door saloon. The

descriptions used for each entry in the guidebook ('New Car Fuel Consumption and Emissions

Figures' published by VCA) are a good example of how models should be described. The aim is

to make the consumer's choice easier, not more difficult.

Where specifications of vehicle with differing fuel consumption and CO2 figures are grouped

together within one model description, for each parameter, the worst figures from all

specifications in the group must be displayed. For example there may be 5 different

specifications of vehicle within a model description, each with a different figure for CO2

emissions, urban, extra-urban and combined fuel consumption. The figures displayed on the

label for this model should be the worst CO2 figure, the worst urban fuel consumption, the worst

extra-urban fuel consumption and the worst combined fuel consumption regardless of whether

the worst figures for each parameter come from different vehicles within the group.

It is not acceptable to choose to show the best figures for the model, or the figures relating to

the vehicle on display, if another specification of the same model, as described on the

poster/label, has worse figures. Checking that the right figures are displayed could ultimately

require liasing with the manufacturer, but cross-referencing figures on labels with those on

posters, on the VCA's web site www.vcacarfueldata.org.uk and in promotional literature should

usually be sufficient.

When a GB-specific sales brochure tells me that I need to speak to Toyota's European Head Office (which is what the 'NV/SA' bit means) and not the local dealers about their testing model if I want to buy one then a dose of scepticism is a healthy thing to have around. The fact that I am not directed to their own dealer network kind of suggests a little subterfuge. I just have a slightly different interpretation to yourself on the meaning of a handful of words. You may be 100% right, in which case I would stand corrected, and vice versa. It would be interesting if someone with a Toyota connection were to comment on this.

The blurb that you've reproduced says explicitly that "Manufacturers may wish to specify further detail such as trim/tune level, body type e.g. TDCi 4 door saloon" a suggestion pointedly not taken up in that brochure. There is no detail offered whatsoever as to what a "basic production vehicle" might be. This three word phrase is Toyota-specific, BTW. Search for it and you only get Toyota references coming back, all of which are unhelpfully non-specific about what it means. Work in sales of anything long enough and you start to scan the fine print to look both for what is in there and also, more importantly, what isn't. It's like an insurance policy, the important thing is not really what's included, but the exclusions.

It's not worth us arguing about though. I love my Prius, like all of us here I'm sure, and I'm not about to call Belgium to get a basic one. I don't expect to ever achieve the official figures, but am more than happy with what I am getting, knowing that as the weather improves it will probably get even better.

[larvington]

I've been using the fuelly web site to track my consumption. I've typically been averaging about 46 mpg but have only been doing short commutes. On my most recent fuel up I had a couple of longer journeys and have also started driving the car a bit more economically (as I get used to driving it) - I made 76.4 mpg on this fuel up.

[Sagitar]

I made 76.4 mpg on this fuel up.

Wow - that is incredible - I am only doing about 48 m.p.g. indicated at present.