Solid Or Dual Mass Flywheel Replacement ?

[spotts]

Hello,

I am new to the owners club and hope that I am posting this in the correct place !

Having read the excellent info about flywheels, I am faced with changing mine on a D4D 2003 model.

There seem to be quite a few aftermarket solid flywheel units available and would like to know if anybody has actualy fitted one and if so, is there is a noticeable difference in use compared to the standard dual mass flywheel? I understand the reasons behind the dual mass flywheel but it is very tempting to go for a solid flywheel that should last longer but do not wish to turn my Rav 4 into something resembling an old Landrover !

Any experiences or suggestions much appreciated.

Sean

[Ravi Shankar]

I'm no expert on this but hope this helps,Anchorman seems to be the oracle around here :D

http://www.toyotaownersclub.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=74099

[Ravi Shankar]

Forgot to say welcome from me.

[anchorman]

............and from me! I think all is contained in the link.

[ivecoman]

hi sean i had same problem with my 2003 rav4 d4d . i am a mechanic by trade myself and am aware that the dual flywheel is to keep shocks from the gearbox but this is due to it using a solid clutch plate i.e no springs. i fitted the kit included was the solid flywheel, clutch with springs, pressure plate and new bolts. takes 6 hours to strip out and the same to refit. have to say mine is in now about 8mts and feels perfect. one thing i will say only fit a blue print kit i,ll try and find the kit number for you and pm you with it. best regards pete(ireland)

[spotts]

Hi Pete, Thanks , its great to have the benefit of your experience. Look forward to receiving the part numbers and any reccomended suppliers (even in Irland as I will be shipping to France).

Anchorman & Shankar, please excuse me for starting this thread, I had missed the fact that the link from the pinned DMF post continued on after the first page ! Having now realised my error & having read the lot I feel like I have been on a long journey & am now very well informed particularly thanks to Anchorman & Hemi.

Still very happy to hear of actual Solid Flywheel experiences now that they will probably have covered quite a few miles.

[Sarah White]

Hi all,

I bought a Rav4 XT5 2005 D4dD which had done 44,000 miles in February this year and two weeks ago (beginning of June) the dual mass fly wheel went. Not happy as you can imagine - bought another Toyota because of the excellent reliability of my previous petrol Corolla 04 plate which happily went to 97500 miles with just services and tyre changes.

Have done some research about the dual mass v solid mass - do please bear in mind that I know very little about engines and knew even less about fly wheels - and it appears to be a problem that affects diesel engines from 2002 onnwards. I spoke to Toyota UK and they denied there was an issue with the fly wheel. At this point I pointed them towards Anchorman's excellent article on this forum and suggested they noted the 69 PAGES of comments that follow!!

I then looked up solid mass fly wheels on the internet and it seemed a more reliable option. So I went to my local Toyota dealership to ask if it was possible to do on a Rav4 and I have to say that the Service Manager there was extremely helpful. He said that in his previous job at Ford, he had replaced Dual Mass Flywheels with Solid Mass ones on a regular basis. He looked up my car reg and said there was a solid mass kit for it. His experience was that solid mass fly wheels have much less of a failure rate, so of course I was interested. I asked if having a solid mass fly wheel would cause any detriment to the engine, gear box etc due to added vibration and he said no, it would be fine, just like having a dual mass fly wheel but my gear changing will have to be more synchronised to eliminated any judder. (Essentially that is what the dual mass fly wheel does for the driver)

So I then asked for a quote and to have a dual mass fly wheel fitted was just short of £2k. However, as I would be a new customer to them, he offered a 20% discount off the labour and a reduction on the parts which reduced the amount to £1640. He also quoted for the solid mass fly wheel conversion which would involve using parts manufactured by Valeo (highly recommended French company apparently) but fitted in the Toyota workshop for £1360. Was grateful for this guy's honesty and help.

As I do bookkeeping for a mechanic, he has since offered to do it for cost for me, so that's the way I'm going to go. Just thought it would be helpful for other Dual Mass Flywheel victims to know there are other options than just replacing it and hoping it lasts another 5 years. I'll let you know how I get on with the solid mass one :0)

[gjnorthall]

Although the Rav 4.2 DMF was prone to failure it's nothing as bad as some other manufacturers. Some Vauxhalls suffered failure every 20 K miles or so. Like all evolving technology - DMF's have improved and it's really a non-issue with the 4.3 Rav from 2006. Lots of owners have fitted solid flywheels with no reported issue and the dire warnings from DMF manufacturers about failures by gear chatter etc etc haven't really come to fruition.

[Bodgit-fixit-run]

I changed to a solid flywheel and clutch last year. Well worth the effort. Got mine from Techniclutch on eBay only £126 or theabouts plus fitting at my local 4 by 4 garage. I also tow with it. The friction plate has longer springs so acts in the same way as the DMF, I think.

[Sarah White]

Thank you both for your comments, very re-assuring!

Have to say this forum has been a brilliant source of information, for which I'm very grateful - long may it last!

Have a great day :0)

[Cyker]

If your DMF has lasted quite a long time, I think there is no issue with putting in a new one.

A DMF's advantages is they present a smoother power delivery to the transmission, and also tend to be lighter which means better acceleration response.

The problem with DMFs is they don't like low RPM or hard acceleration.

I very often idle-roll in traffic at 800-1000rpm and I know that would be very punishing for a DMF.

A lot of modern diesel ECUs are tuned for DMFs tho'; They specifically limit torque, esp at low RPM and low gears, to protect the DMF from being damaged by large torque pulses. The other potential issue is that a drive train built for a DMF may be lighter and less robust than one built for an SMF, so putting an SMF in may reduce its life. (Kindalike how old iron-block diesel engines are virtually indestructible and could take more forced induction than an very inappropriate simile , but these modern alloy ones are a lot weaker and would probably crack at far lower boost levels than the iron blocks can take!)

[Bono Estente]

I recently fitted a new LUK dmf and clutch kit.....its totally transformed the car. ...no more vibrations no more booming at low engine revs....I can low change gear at 1k rpm and pull away in higher gears without that horrible vibration through the cabin.....it does now actually drive like a petrol vehicle....cost me £437 just for parts......but well worth it. Lets hope it lasts another 90k.

Dmf is definitely a wearable part just like the clutch in my opinion....and will eventually need to be replaced....hopefully they are made better now 10 years on...

my theory is people that report no ill effects with a smf is that they slowly get used to the vibrstions when there dmf fails and so when fitting a smf they notice no difference.....I can vouch for this from my own experience. .... new dmf is like a new car..

[Cyker]

I wondered about this too; I assumed the SMF would need to be heavier than the DMf in order to dampen out the vibrations to a similar degree, which would impact acceleration responsiveness.

If you used an SMF that weighed the same as a DMF, it would not be able to damp out the torque pulses anywhere near as well!

[Bono Estente]

The damping springs on a dmf are in the actual flywheel and are much longer....on a smf they are in the clutch disc... There is damping with and smf kit but not as much as with a dmf....