Serious Engine Problem Following Turbo Breakdown

[theakie]

2001 Rav4 D-4D 2L turbo diesel, 100000 miles

I know you are not telepathic but can anyone shed any light on this...

Briefly:- Turbo broke/blew/failed @ 70mph on motorway. Had to drive for over 10 miles (in contraflow on motorway with no hard shoulder) with a metallic scraping noise - presumably the turbo failing. Then, exhaust suddenly spewing out loads of smoke. Was able to stop immediately smoke started. On hard shoulder, engine ticking over just as normal. Turned engine off. AA loaded car onto a transporter and dropped it off at our friendly garage. Tried to start it - clunk - engine hydraulic locked, oil in one of the cylinders.

They removed (what?) injectors (?) and turned it over - oil forcibly ejected and squirted all over ceiling of garage (literally, I've seen it!)

Got re-con turbo, fitted and engine starts as normal and sounds OK, perhaps a bit noisier than usual. Drives ok... just not "quite right". Garage says that there is something not right... misfiring... they think a bent con rod but they can't be certain without taking the engine to bits and say that we would be better off getting another engine.

Loads of phone calls/research - could be con rod, could be burned injector, could be burned piston/combustion ring? Today, spoke to a breakers yard about a replacement engine and they said that it is most likely the re-con turbo at fault - "they are notorious for not working right".

We are really skint but need to get this car back on the road. Our garage can't get any error codes off it but, with a previous (unrelated) problem, their machine couldn't get any codes but a Toyota dealer got it straight away. I know that if it is a bent con rod there will be no error codes but we are (clutching at straws) hoping that is isn't as serious as this!

Anyone got any experience/knowledge of this?

The car had not been towed to try to start it and only turned with the key about 4 times - and - as we stopped as soon as the smoke appeared, theoretically, this wouldn't have damaged/bent a con rod?

We just don't know what to do.

We DO trust our garage (a personal friend) but they admit that they aren't experts with this sort of problem.

Is it worth taking the car to a Toyota dealer to see if they can give a more concrete diagnosis?

Anyone have experience with re-con turbos?

Toyota dealer says on the phone that if it IS a bent con rod and it's not too bad we could just "live with it"...!?

Any suggestions would be gratefully received...

Many thanks

Mike

[anchorman]

Welcome to the club.

Keep your chin up - lets see what we can find out.

A con rod takes some bending, especially with a starter motor. If you drive it through a flood with the weight of the car behind it, fair enough but you are really unlucky to do it with a starter.

Your garage should know which cylinder/s were full of oil so home in on those. Start the engine and slacken the injector pipes in turn. As you do so the engine should die off but not on the cylinder that is missing. Normal diagnostic procedure calls for the cylinder pressure to be checked but not all garages have the equipment for a diesel. They could borrow or hire it or maybe you could ask the Toyota garage if they can do it. If you prove the cylinders are all in spec you can 99% rule out a bent con rod. In this case I would probably look at the injector of the affected cylinder. I'm not sure if 4.2 injectors are plug and play but they will probably operate well enough to make a test. Swap the injector with the adjacent cylinder then start it again and see if the miss has gone with the injector.

Finally, is it driveable? When the engine has been full of oil it can take quite some time to rid it out. Providing the misfire isn't shaking the car to pieces, take it for a run and see if it clears with time (5 miles) - don,t even try if it is bad.

I don't agree that you can ignore it as it will use excessive fuel and eventually cause more damage.

[Mach 1]

suprised only one cylinder with oil in, was it the nearest to the inlet pipe? The oil would have to go all the way through the intercooler aswell to get to the combustion chamber so has it all been cleaned out?

compression test invaluable, but injector check advisable aswell

[bothwell_buyer]

I'd use a Jap engine tuning specialist. Then I'm just simple and being a Fifer, like to save money

[igormus]

2001 Rav4 D-4D 2L turbo diesel, 100000 miles

I know you are not telepathic but can anyone shed any light on this...

Briefly:- Turbo broke/blew/failed @ 70mph on motorway. Had to drive for over 10 miles (in contraflow on motorway with no hard shoulder) with a metallic scraping noise - presumably the turbo failing. Then, exhaust suddenly spewing out loads of smoke. Was able to stop immediately smoke started. On hard shoulder, engine ticking over just as normal. Turned engine off. AA loaded car onto a transporter and dropped it off at our friendly garage. Tried to start it - clunk - engine hydraulic locked, oil in one of the cylinders.

They removed (what?) injectors (?) and turned it over - oil forcibly ejected and squirted all over ceiling of garage (literally, I've seen it!)

Got re-con turbo, fitted and engine starts as normal and sounds OK, perhaps a bit noisier than usual. Drives ok... just not "quite right". Garage says that there is something not right... misfiring... they think a bent con rod but they can't be certain without taking the engine to bits and say that we would be better off getting another engine.

Loads of phone calls/research - could be con rod, could be burned injector, could be burned piston/combustion ring? Today, spoke to a breakers yard about a replacement engine and they said that it is most likely the re-con turbo at fault - "they are notorious for not working right".

We are really skint but need to get this car back on the road. Our garage can't get any error codes off it but, with a previous (unrelated) problem, their machine couldn't get any codes but a Toyota dealer got it straight away. I know that if it is a bent con rod there will be no error codes but we are (clutching at straws) hoping that is isn't as serious as this!

Anyone got any experience/knowledge of this?

The car had not been towed to try to start it and only turned with the key about 4 times - and - as we stopped as soon as the smoke appeared, theoretically, this wouldn't have damaged/bent a con rod?

We just don't know what to do.

We DO trust our garage (a personal friend) but they admit that they aren't experts with this sort of problem.

Is it worth taking the car to a Toyota dealer to see if they can give a more concrete diagnosis?

Anyone have experience with re-con turbos?

Toyota dealer says on the phone that if it IS a bent con rod and it's not too bad we could just "live with it"...!?

Any suggestions would be gratefully received...

Many thanks

Mike

Hello Mike

I ve carefully read these developments and brouhgt to the following conclusion:

- even yr turbo was faulty -- you could drive the car at low load/speed -- it is not a turbo guilty in your case !!!

- it is good you ve stopped engine once smoky.

As I can deem you have a comon rail - -correct ??? In such a way the most likely prorblem was with one injector: the needle was blocked in a lifted position or the loading spring got broken and the full amount of diesel from the rail has filled in this cylinder under 900 bar (!!!)resulting hydraulic lock. The reasoon of it might be either dirty fuel or overheating of injection nozzle. You can calculate the volume of the rail and volume of compression chanber - -it is understood the inner volume of thhe first one is greatly more and can easy fill this chamber -- the same is deemed has happened. The engine has to be very carefully inspected to be sure this issue has not affected liner/con rod/piston/crank shaft with shells. Good luck with investigations + revert.

Cheers/Igor

[dawesy]

as it sound like the turbo suffered catastrophic failure its possible that if it was the compressor wheel that broke up its gone through the engine which can cause a huge amount of damage.

try the simple things first , check for error codes.

it isnt that hard to bend a rod, on a diesel it doesnt need much of a bend as a diesel relies on the correct compression for combustion if the rod is even slightly bent the cylinder pressure will be down leading to in efficient combustion and poor running

[theakie]

Thank you all for your help, which did give us some hope!, but things have taken a turn for the worse.

Our garage had done all the normal checks and tests, cleaning out the intercooler etc but couldn't find the problem. I don't know if only 1 or more cylinders were affected as the garage boss has been off for the last week and communicatin isn't good. So - we got the car transported to a Toyota dealer for diagnostics/investigation. The idea being that using their experience and specialist equipment, they could come up with a more definate diagnosis.

They first said that, on starting, it didn't sound bad at all...

However, once warmed up it ran really rough, the coolant system over pressurised and that once it was turned off, it wouldn't start again until it cooled down a bit - they said it was "partially seizing". They "didn't bother" doing a compression test as this would not have given any better info. They don't know what is wrong - could be head gasket, could be head, could be cracked cylinder, could be conrod, could be blah blah blah and the only way of finding out is to strip the engine - £££££!

I don't know much, but, if the head gasket/head/block failed that couldn't cause the turbo to go? Going back to the day it went wrong, according to the temperature gauge the engine never overheated - turbo went, oil floods into the engine, burns, exhaust smoke, controlled stop on hard shoulder, engine idling normally then turn off with the key. By the time the AA arrived and transported the car to a garage (about 2 hours later) the engine was "hydraulic locked". Our garage showed me the turbo once they had removed it and the "driveshaft" (or whatever its called) rattled around instead of spinning sweetly on its bearings. So - can I assume that the turbo failing was the thing that started the chain of events?

I am told that oil burning in the engine causes locallised overheating so that could have blown the head gasket? Could that have damaged the head? The block? What...?

We have thought about getting a replacement engine and have trawled those "find a part" type websites but once we had researched the car breakers who had the right engine we found that they all had loads of bad reports - non delivery after taking the money, delivering non working parts, being really helpful until you ask them to sort out a problem, refusing refunds on the grounds of loads of excuses and delaying tactics, "the worst company I have ever dealt with", "don't buy a part from them if they were the last company on earth" etc etc !

We have a VERY limited amount of money and can't afford anything to go wrong. Talked it over with our local friendly garage and, once the car has been recovered back to them, they are going to take the head off and have it pressure tested and, obviously, look for evidence of gasket failure. I (think) I am hoping that they find one of these to be the problem as anything else would be much more serious?

Oh God, please give me guidance! Failing that, can anyone else add any ideas/thoughts?

[dawesy]

mmmm doesnt sound good.

if it hydraulic locked then it may have damaged the head gasket so it could just be that. TBH the only way to find out for sure is strip it down. guesses cost money.

hope it turns out well.

[Mach 1]

Blown head gasket rarely causes a partial seizure of the engine unless the engine was left to completely drain of water and heat up excessivley. A bent conrod I don't believe would do it either. What may have happened is the big end bearing may have been damaged due to the hydraulic locking and this could cause the big end to knock and when run, to partially seize. But that doesn't explain the water pressure rising.

I can only say that the best thing to do is take off the head, and I tend to think you may have a cracked bore, which you could verify with the head off. Some can be repaired but unfortunately it won't be cheap

[theakie]

Thank you for your replies... got no further yet.

Our local garage have recovered the car from the Toyota service centre and have been given a report which is very non committal and vague. Our garage is trying to do some more tests and exploration - trying to avoid taking the head off due to the cost.

Someone has told me that when diesel engine oil burns it leaves a very thick residue that is really hard to shift and it could be this residue that is causing the engine to partially seize when the engine is up to normal temperature/hot?

Is that likely?

If so, could it also cause the coolant to overpressurise?

Has anyone heard of this as a possible way of cleaning out the engine: drain all the oil and refill with half engine oil and half hydraulic oil. Run until hot and then drain and repeat. Then drain and fill with normal oil? (Apparently, hydraulic oil really cuts through oily gunge!)

Our garage says that this sounds dodgy and could do more damage...

Any ideas or other suggestions?

Failing that: does anyone have a decent engine going cheap?

Or does anyone want to buy a lovely Rav4 with a mysterious engine problem that no-one seems to be able to identify...

Mike

[anchorman]

Forget about the engine being clogged up. If that were the case all our diesels would be clogged and apart from the EGR valve which isn't your problem that isn't the case.

Your garage should follow normal diagnostic procedure and they should find the problem.

[PaxosStu]

Hi everyone. Resurrecting this old post as exactly my problem. 2003 Rav4 2.0D4D 146,000 miles (live in greek islands) Pattern of events as follows for ref for the experts.

Changed timing belt as routine precaution at greek toyota dealer 10,000miles ago (11/16) also changed all tensioners (i supplied parts-school boy error i know but in my defence a local garage was gonna do it for me and told me to get the parts, then bottled it so i had to sent to franchised Toyota dealer on mainland greece -hence why I supplied parts) Didnt change water pump!!!!!!! Yes i know i should have (more later) 170€ labour to change belt. 

9/18 car broke cambelt so sent back to Toyota dealer (TD) for investigation, found water pump to be partially siezed intermittently and eventually wore out new belt and it snapped. No tell tale noises from water pump which would have made me check!!! Cut a long story short it bent 12 of 16 valves and had job done (1250€) 

Picked up car weds (2 days ago) all good, drove to bulgaria 340miles all good. Had MOT done there yesterday morning then headed back on motorway. 80mph (i dont cane it always under 3,000rpm) all the way no issues then approx 200 miles into trip felt a very feint stutter almost like a fuel injector starvation and very very slight loss of power, slowly over a 3-4km stretch continued to lose power very slowly then a rotary “dry” noise which at the time i suspected was turbo, slowed right down trying to make next exit as was in mountainous section in very heavy fog (not safest place to stop) but in last few secs, loss of power got worse and what sounded like some small/big end knock, pulled over immediately and turned off. Tried to start several times first of all it sounded partially siezed but turned over to a fashion but after recovery truck,  i tried it and now seems stuck. Important to say there was never ANY smoke from exhaust, never any oil pressure or EML lights illuminated, nothing. I’m an ex car dealer and know my way round a car and there were no symptoms whatsoever prior to the little buffer then subsequent events above. Any thoughts? Toyota dealer saying turbo axle has siezed and they’re gonna take off the inlet manifold to see if they can see any fragments? I know i should have stopped when i heard the rotary dry bearing noise but as mentioned it wasnt safe in the fog! And no the fog wasn’t from my exhaust!! Lol 

[PaxosStu]

Sorry. Burning question. Could the head/valve work done by Toyota contribute in any way to the subsequent turbo failure? I did 560miles after leaving the garage so if any obvious problems it would have happened well before that surely? Could something have maybe gone down the oilways and then worked its way to the turbo? Or do u think it’s totally coincidental 

[gjnorthall]

It's easy to check if the turbo is seized without dismantling. Remove the suction hose and with a thin screwdriver - attempt to rotate the impeller - it should rotate with virtually no resistance and there should only be perceptible lateral movement on the shaft. In the majority of cases, turbos will squeal before the shaft seizes or breaks and thereafter will be silent and the reduction in engine power will be very noticeable. Again in the vast majority of cases - it's the turbine wheel that's damaged and bits will end up in the cat - it's quite rare for the compressor wheel to fail so it's unlikely that bits would end up in the inlet manifold. Whilst there may be an issue with the turbo - this would not affect the engine turning over, so if there's something stuck as you describe - it's not because of the turbo, and you have another issue. If the turbo is damaged, it's important to ascertain the root cause - the key thing is to check the oil feed and return lines for restriction. If the turbo is original, then 146K miles is a very good life.