1998 1.8 Gs Still Having Starting Problems

[peterc.lewis@blueyonder.co.uk]

I've posted about the on going issues with this car not starting.

Well the garage had a look and he could not find anything wrong EXCEPT the Battery failed when he tested draw etc. It's holding charge etc but appears to be struggling to start the car.

There was a problem with the starter motor (which was bust) and he checked that and it's fine.

The symptoms are that the car struggles to start then the revs restrict slowly climbing as the temperature of the car increases.

This guy was highly recommended by a number of sources.

If I bung a good quality (Bosch) Battery on there do you reckon that will at least remove one thing from the list .

Also my apologise to the posters who responded to the starter issue when I said the Battery was OK. It obviously wasn't (OK that is). Humble pie being eaten now .

[peterc.lewis@blueyonder.co.uk]

An update.

Got a Bosch Silver s 5 Battery and put it on the car.

Now , even though it still struggles to start, the Battery turns the engine strongly and it eventually starts though it still runs like a dog till it is warmed up.

Next move is to try and swap out one of the coil packs with a known good one.

If this has no effect I'll swap the other one out in the same way to see if this works.

Really am clutching at straws now.

[SF695]

Did you check the idle control valve?

[peterc.lewis@blueyonder.co.uk]

Did you check the idle control valve?

Whats one of them then ? I think you can take that as a no.

What I have done is check the spark plugs again , I realised I had not check the gapping and lo! and behold number 3 smelt vaguelly of petrol. The gap was 1mm instead of 1.4 (as per the haynes manual). Replaced it with one of the old ones (which was gapped ok) and she now runs fine from cold again.

I think the lesson there is to be much more thorough and not take things for granted.

I can believe I can be that stupid as I have a habit of jumping to conclusions.

Thanks for the tip off though , I appreciate you taking the time to help.

[peterc.lewis@blueyonder.co.uk]

AhH! This morning she started no problem but the revs are still stable but when I give it any throttle they are limited till she warms up. Disconnecting the air intake temp sensor seems to make no difference.

[Gooli]

These engine troubleshooting guides are for the 3S-FE engine

(2.0 litre petrol engine fitted in the 1998-2000 avensis),

but i guess it applies in most parts for your engine too.

http://i39.tinypic.com/be5y80.jpg

http://i39.tinypic.com/10dveo3.jpg

[peterc.lewis@blueyonder.co.uk]

Reopening the saga with this post.

Currently the car is vary hard to start when colder than 12 c (on dashboard).

If it does start the slightest throttle causes it to start missing and you have to wait till it warms before you can increase the revs.

If it hasn't started quit quickly it just won't till it is very warm (>16 degrees) and even then only when you take the (black and wet usually) plugs out and clean them allowing the engine to breath.

Once up to temperature the engine does hesitate a little at times under throttle (usually in third) but seems to run ok.

So far I've checked the air intake temperature sensor and the coolant sensor , both were giving values close to each other.

If I disconnect the coolant sensor the just will not start.

If I disconnect inlet air temperature sensor then the car might run but with exactly the same symptoms as if it was plugged in.

I've swapped out the plugs for older ones I removed when the new ones went in, no change.

Changed the HT leads .

Put on a new Battery (Bosch).

I've had a look around in the engine bay and there is nothing obviously loose.

This problem just suddenly happened one morning after the car had been stood outside on a very cold night.

It's not run right (when cold) since.

Cheers,

Pete.

[peterc.lewis@blueyonder.co.uk]

Oh I forgot I cleaned the throttle mouth and the idle control valve with some spray carb cleaner, a little toothbrush and wiped it all clean. The bit in front of the paddle thing (OK I know it's probably called something a lot more technical but my mind is fried after work) is now nice clean and shiny.

While it was off I ran the engine without the tubes from the air filter on and sprayed a bit of carb cleaner in to the valve. The engine stalled. So I restarted it and it ran exactly as it had before. Revs around 1200 till it warms then they drop to 600-700.

[peterc.lewis@blueyonder.co.uk]

Tried again this morning and she wouldn't start.

I checked the plugs BEFORE I tried to start to see if they were fouled and they were dry healthy looking.

Cranked and the inevitable failure to start .

Took plugs out and they were black and soaked with petrol (all four).

Took them out and cleaned them then popped them in the oven at full for 20 minutes.

Put them (very carefully :) ) back in and tried again.

She started.

OK she ran like a dog and needed coaxing till she got up to temperature but she ran.

As long as she is not stone cold she'll start now.

I checked the spark yesterday (while warm) and it looked a bit thin and straggly to me (all four cylinders).

Was I expecting a strong lightning arc with ozone and stuff but this was more of a very fine arc.

So I think it's either a weak spark or far too rich a mixture until the engine warms up.

Of course I'v emade the mistake of jumping to conclusions far too often before.

I'll keep posting and will definately let you know if I can resolcve this (with help from some amazingly generous people here I might add) I will post as this could be quite a useful process in the end.

[Gooli]

"If I disconnect the coolant sensor the just will not start."

"If I disconnect inlet air temperature sensor then the car might run but with exactly the same symptoms as if it was plugged in."

Since the engine stalls when disconnecting coolant temp sensor, but not when disconnecting air temp sensor,

have you tried disconnecting the air temp sensor, and check if you have any voltages coming from the ecu?

It should be about the same as for the coolant temp sensor (I guess).

But then again, a faulty air temp sensor maybe isn't as big an issue as a faulty coolant sensor.

[peterc.lewis@blueyonder.co.uk]

"If I disconnect the coolant sensor the just will not start."

"If I disconnect inlet air temperature sensor then the car might run but with exactly the same symptoms as if it was plugged in."

Since the engine stalls when disconnecting coolant temp sensor, but not when disconnecting air temp sensor,

have you tried disconnecting the air temp sensor, and check if you have any voltages coming from the ecu?

It should be about the same as for the coolant temp sensor (I guess).

But then again, a faulty air temp sensor maybe isn't as big an issue as a faulty coolant sensor.

I'm getting just under 4.8 volts from the ECU.

I've just tried another restart after it's cooled for a while.

Started a little rough but quickly heated up and runs ok.

I measured the coolant temp sensor at 1.7 k ohms .

Put a resistor with 1.6 k ohms across the inlet air sensor and it did seem to make a difference.

Then I checked and I have finally got a code, number 14. Not sure if this was just down to me messing with the sensors though.

This morning there were no codes even after extended attempts to start.

Could it be that the starter motor I replaced just over a year ago is playing up again ?

I'll keep digging and posting as I would love to be able to solve this for obvious reasons and suspect I might not be the only person who has had this problem?

[peterc.lewis@blueyonder.co.uk]

Sunday sunday.

OK she would not start (indicated 12 degrees).

Plugs warmed in over then she needed a lot of coaxing and ran till warm.

Listening to the engine when she runs there is an intermittent sharp and short HISS! and the engine stumbles slighyly before running for a few more seconds then another sharp hiss and stumble.

I've also been getting problems with pinking under load.

Now it might not be related, any thoughts?

Cheers,

Pete.

[peterc.lewis@blueyonder.co.uk]

I've had a good listen with the engine warm and there is NO HISSING. The car is starting, revving and running fine.

No doubt in the morning it'll not run again and I wouldn't mind betting the hiss will be back too.

Probably a red herring anyway.

[Gooli]

Some links to pages with people with the same woes as you:

http://www.automotivehelper.com/topic133874.htm

http://www.ford-forums.com/ford-contour/9853-96gl-cold-start-up-revs-up-stalls.html

[peterc.lewis@blueyonder.co.uk]

Monday monday.

Ok temperature on dash was 14 degrees.

Would not start.

Plugs in cooker till they were hot as hell.

In car, reculctantly starts after a few turns and seriously bogging.

Let the car warm up a little .

Still bogging and nursing it.

Stopped engine .

Took out plugs.

Black except for a small clear patch on outer electrode.

Clean and reinsert.

Engine starts.

Bogging Gone, revs freely.

I reckon the boggin was the time it was taking to burn off the fouling.

Oh and no vacuum leaks that I could find. Though I did pull a few pipes off yesterday to check they were ok so one might just have been loose.

Started the car with the airbox slightly open too to ensure goof air flow. Putting it back on made securely made no difference.

So I reckon it's a fuelling issue on cold starts. Plugs are getting wet and this is preventing firing and flooding the engine. Plugs are fouled and the boggin is down to diry plugs cleaning themselves off.

I'll keep everyone posted and a massive thankyou to Gooli for your help.

[peterc.lewis@blueyonder.co.uk]

Took the car out for a quick spin to get the temperature up so it'll start later when we go out for a walk.

Checked the oxygen sensor.

It has four wires. Two black (I assume heater) and one white one blue (I assume signal).

Heater wires appear closed circuit , resistance same as touching the probes together.

Voltage between blue and white 0.6 slowly changed to 0.5.

Could this cause too rich a fuelling at start up (if voltage drops and stops low) ?

If I disconnect the lamdba sensor at start up will this allow me to get the car to running temperature or will the ecu simply not allow the car to start ?

Am I talking rubbish as usual ?

Cheers,

Pete.

[Gooli]

Did you check the rest of the ignition system, apart from from

swapping the plugs and HT leads? Is there a weak spark?

Maybe the spark gets choked out by the extra rich fuel when engine and plugs

are cold, but not when they are hot?

http://www.automotiveforums.com/t979683-weak_spark.html

[peterc.lewis@blueyonder.co.uk]

Just gone over a few checks.

Checkd spark after depressurising the fuel system.

Initially I got reasonable sparks on 4 and 3, 2 was weak 1 no spark. Went back to 4 and no spark.

Reconnected fuel and the car runs fine.

Decided to check the coolant sensor when it's hot and it read 3.6, this seems way off.

I've decided to put this in to the hands of a different mechanic and see what he finds.

I can't chuck parts at this and I feel like I'm going round in big circles.

Will post resolution.

[peterc.lewis@blueyonder.co.uk]

Just got back from a short walk by the river Severn.

The walk was short but the RAC man only took an hour too.

Stopped on the way back for the wife to pop in to a local restaurant to see i fthey did vouchers and turned the engine off.

That was the last time it ran.

No fuel pump noises.

No spark.

Ahh!!

Will update in the morning I need a pint and to not look at car forums for a few more hours.

It's going to the local garage to see if they can sort it.

[peterc.lewis@blueyonder.co.uk]

Got the car back from the garage today.

The HT leads (Blueprint) were replaced as both mechanic and the RAC guy said they were utter crap.

Cam position sensor replaced.

Wife picked the car up. Started no problem, drove it home. Spluttered to a halt on the drive and we are back to no start again.

I do not just want to throw money at this .

Got two codes 12 and 24.

Does anyone have any ideas ? I am getting desperate as we are due to go on holiday in the car and I need it running.

HELP!!!!!!

[Gooli]

Toyota fault codes: http://www.troublecodes.net/Toyota/

[peterc.lewis@blueyonder.co.uk]

It's been a while as I was trying to source a crank sensor from a breaker. Got sick of waiting in the end and still waiting for a refund for one that sent the wrong part altogether and hasn't paid me back. I'll send them something in writing but if they don't respond then I might just name and shame.

New sensor ordered from the ever reliable chaps in North Wales at Lindop. I have to say THEIR service is always swift and accurate.

Installed and then put all the cam belt covers etc back on, all the belts , checked the plugs and attached the Battery.

Started with only the slightest hesitation and revved freely from the off (which it was not doing before). OK it's warm at the moment so I'm going to keep restarting her on and off on the drive till I've got her insured and can take her for a spin.

Things are looking up though as even when she started before (in the warm) she wouldn't rev freely till totally warmed up. probably the plugs fouling.

Thanks to everyone who posted, I know I went down some right blind alleys with this. The upshot is I now know a lot more about my car.

Fingers crossed.

[Gooli]

Keeping my fingers crossed for you. You deserve it.

[peterc.lewis@blueyonder.co.uk]

Yep, fingers crossed and a great deal of thanks to people just like you for your advice. Cheers again Gooli.