Toyota Aygo Corroded Brake Disc

[AygoYugo]

My front brake discs have now been replaced under warranty.

They were noisy, pitted and scored after 12 months.

Disc warranty expires after 18 months.

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[Sir Henry]

At 8am today my almost 4 year Aygo 21000 miles went for its 4 year service + mot. Always Toyota maintained. Discovered corroded brake discs and leaking water pump. The bill is (£233 + 55 + 250 +280 )= £818.

I only drive 5000 miles a year. Adding in the previous services I don't think it is working out to be a cheap to run car. Sad as I was thinking of replacing it in March for a new one.

Am I being unreasonable in my expectations? Are my bills unusual?

Any way I can tackle Toyota on this? What is the position on brake disc corrosion?

Is an extended warranty going to cover these items?

Any assistance?

Ricardo1000 seems to have similar issues

Sir Henry

[Raistlin]

Look at these prices

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[dudgeon]

I have a 57 plate Aygo, 31,500 miles,first used 08 as it was pre reg. On 15th February 2014, the brake pedal went right down to the floor, fortunately at low speed and no other traffic in the vicnity.

The car passed an MOT in Sept 2013 with an advisory comment that the inside surfaces of the disc were scored but OK. I intended to replace the discs and pads before next MOT. The brake pedal seemed slightly soft at times but seemed to operate OK.

On removal of the pads to investigate the problem the findings were rather disturbing to say the least. Findings as below.

Offside outer pad - almost 8mm thick but almost 50% crumbled away

Offside inner pad - no friction material at all, just a rusty backing plate (Hence pedal to floor)

Nearside outer pad - 5mm thick but not fixed to backplate, just sitting there.

Nearside inner pad - 8mm thick approx.and appeared sound.

The discs were quite badly rusted even though I chip off excess rust annually.

Toyota Customer Services were informed CW photos. They refused to comment as a Toyota centre had not seen the vehicle in it's failed state. I live on an island and to transport an undriveable car would have cost a fortune.

My day to day driving involves minimal braking which it would seem is the main problem as the pads rust off before wearing out. Toyota must be aware of the problem and should really advise replacement of discs and pads as a matter of course every 4 years or so regardless of mileage.

I have driven over 500,000 miles over the years and only once had to replace discs. A 1967 Vauxhall Viva went to the knackers yard after 13 years and 140,000 miles with the original discs.

[FROSTYBALLS]

Discs have been consumable items since before 2000, when manufacturers had to stop using asbestos in braking material. Think I would be more concerned over how the car got through it's MOT in September, as supposedly the braking efficiency is tested as part of the MOT. Has the servicing been done every year, when was the last service done, and by whom? I would have thought the condition of the brakes would have been highlighted as part of the servicing regime.

[vox]

I've found rusting discs a problem on the last two cars I have owned since 2002. My old Subaru Sumo van had done 116,000 miles on 2 sets of pads and the original discs.

I think the open style wheels fitted these days are somewhat to blame as water can enter through the sides so easily. The Subaru had almost solid steelies on it with small two pence sized holes around the edge of the rim, well away from the discs. I still believe that cast iron used for discs is bad news, there must be a reasonably cheap alternative. I would love to have ceramic discs, but the cost would be more than my IQ cost! I believe Citroen use duralamin instead for a while, perhaps they still do?

I will be changing my own discs on my IQ, I'm not paying Toyota to do something I can do myself and I will use better quality discs and pads. Pagid are excellent, so are EBC, but dearer and you may feel like a prat with spotty/slotted discs that actually do nothing to improve the braking on a small city car. Oh, and BE AWARE, some of the Chinese discs crack very easily, so cheap may not be a good idea.

[Mike169]

I have seen pads like this in the past, the one with no lining material on it at some point probably had 5mm or so of braking material left on it has probably become detached from the metal backing plate and at some point has worked it's way out of the caliper and left down the road somewhere and this could well of happened in the last week or less and hence your pedal going to the floor, the lining material has become unbonded from the backplate if you like.

Perhaps whoever last serviced it should of suggested changing them as their efficiency drops off significantly as they start to get a bit thin but a service does not necessarily include stripping the brakes down for a very close inspection and on some cars it is virtually impossible to see the condition of the pads whilst the caliper is fitted.

To apportion blame as to who is at fault is highly questionable but parts wear our/fail and i just see it as one of those things and the obvious real answer is simply to buy new discs and pads and renew.

Brakes are consumables as far as i am concerned and should just be changed as and when they are required.

I would recommend fitting quality parts or original equipment, they brake much better.

Hope all goes well, Mike169

[Valvematic]

there is a good guide here on how to change discs/pads https://www.verboom.net/projects/c1/

[daveyjp]

Our Aygo had new disks and pads after 5 years and about 15,000 miles. Lack of use being the issue. The disks were rarely taken to the point of being hot so were nearly always wet. The problem areas were the fins forming the vents. Water was staying on them and corriding the disks from the inside.

It just shows a low mileage car does not necessarily mean low maintenance costs. My Mercedes has just had new disks and pads all round after 40,000 miles. I could have kept the rear disks, but new disks aren't expensive compared to the labour costs in having to change them anyway in a few thousand miles.

[Cyker]

I think it's partly the pad material too; With the standard 'blue' Toyota brake pads, my discs always had a slight patina of rust, but with the EBC Greenstuffs I'm running now they're a lot smoother. When I park up they're almost like mirrors!

The downside is they produce a lot more dust; I think the Toyota ones are Akebono ceramic pads as they produce no visible dust at all!

[dudgeon]

Discs have been consumable items since before 2000, when manufacturers had to stop using asbestos in braking material. Think I would be more concerned over how the car got through it's MOT in September, as supposedly the braking efficiency is tested as part of the MOT. Has the servicing been done every year, when was the last service done, and by whom? I would have thought the condition of the brakes would have been highlighted as part of the servicing regime.

Thank you for your comments. I had not been aware that discs are now consumables. Re the MOT, as far as I am aware , no testing stations remove wheels or pads to see if the friction material is still adhering to the back plate. If the braking efficiency registers OK on the rolling road then it is a pass, which it was in this case and the brakes felt fine up until the point when one pad 'escaped', and required several pumps to bring the back plate into contact with the disc.

I have always done my own servicing for over 55 years without problem. I check the Aygo discs annually, remove rust to minimise it encroaching on the pad swept area, and check pad thicknesses, which, before the last MOT were well above minimum spec.. There was uneven wear but this is almost always the case as one side of the disc is subject to a more hostile environment. The crumbling on the one pad was not visible being on the hub side. Free movement was also checked but I did not remove any pads and lever them with a chisel to see if they were still stuck. This , I will do in the future after this experience.. I can only assume that because I drive mainly on a flat twisty road and adjust speed with throttle control rather than standing on the brakes this has led to the failure. I do, however still think that this type of fault should not happen. I have rebuilt classic cars from the ground up and used brake pads which have been on a donor car in a field for20 years and never seen this problem before. One learns something every day!

Although this thread is regarding rusting discs, the rusting pads are, to me, more of a worry.

[FROSTYBALLS]

I didn't imply that the wheels are removed as part of the MOT test - I said that I would have thought the condition of the brakes would have been highlighted during the servicing regime.

[vox]

According to the tester on my last MOT, the discs will fail
if more than 1/3 of the braking surface is rusty, even if the braking efficiency
is within parameters. That's what I was told. As the garage knew they were not
going to replace the discs for me, I'm inclined to believe him. Unless some one
knows otherwise.

[Mike169]

Hi all, firstly i am not here to have a dig at anyone but just saying how it is as i see it with much experience. I have read of people fitting 2nd hand discs or pads, that's a big NO NO. I did MOT's on cars for years and it was quite common for a regular customer to have a Full Service and free MOT. Usually we would do the service first and that way if anything was wrong, i.e. the wheels were off, the disc's and pads could be inspected much more easily and me, the MOT tester as shown by the mechanic that the brakes were in poor condition although still working, brakes are consumables like tyres or Wiper Blades etc.

Each job/customer was of course different and if a customers trusted 'us' we'd end up changing the discs/pads either before or after the MOT depending on how the rest of the car looked and how well we knew the customer, pointless removing the wheels twice if unnecessary. We would have seized pads in the carrier that we would chisel out and the lining material would sometimes fall off the backing plate giving us the satisfaction that we had saved this happening to someone on the road with possible horrendous consequences. Doing a full service is half the MOT anyway and it was a way of generating more work/money and a more through job doing the 2 together. If the pads were worn excessively low i would fail the brakes on a safety issue, similarly if the discs were below minimum thickness they would fail, if they were borderline then an advisory would be issued. If doing an MOT test and there was an excessive braking difference efficiency between the wheels on the same axle then the car would fail.

It's all about safety and stopping distances etc, quality parts work better but is was how much the customer wanted to pay/ generic parts, OE or decent copies.

Doing an MOT test only we were not allowed to even remove wheel trims to inspect the brakes, pathetic i felt, incase a clip broke or anything, the best we could do is inspect the brakes with and inspection lamp and small mirror from underneath and make a decision that way but due to design it was not always possible to see the pad lining material thickness but if the discs had a heavy wear lip on the outer rim i could fail the discs on that point which always meant new pads as well. We were not out to con people but to keep the car in safe working order as peoples lives were at stake.

I personally have no experience of Aygo brakes, been out of the game too long but if my OE (Original Equipment) ones seemed to be poor i would change to a different premium make as they stop the car more quickly than cheap ones, that could mean the difference from crashing or even a child's life on a zebra crossing.

A lot depends on your attitude to your car, i want mine as safe as possible and not run as cheaply as i can get away with. When my wife takes our car out i know it is as safe as it can be, good brakes, quality same make quality tyres so if she should crash at least i know i couldn't of done anything more about the car to avoid accidents.

I personally don't like having discs skimmed as it only reduces the thickness of the disc and once it is worn below minimum manufacturers recommended thickness they are scrap anyway and warranty on skimmed discs is very questionable, personally i would fit new every time even if money was tight i would fit cheaper generic ones if i had to but this can open up another can of worms as cheap discs split/crack, so if you can afford it, regular strip downs, parts cleaned, slides emery clothed or similar and fit quality parts if you can afford them, they usually last longer anyway and definitely are more efficient.

Regards Mike169

[vox]

A good post Mike, Exactly what should be done. I agree
about the stupid restrictions for removing things to inspect the condition of
the brakes. It should be at the owners own risk really, as brakes are one of the
biggest safety factors in the MOT test. This rule makes the test incomplete.

[Mike169]

Hi Vox and thank you for you comment.

Some people think the MOT test is just a pain and a money spinner, they seem to forget they are driving a 1 ton plus killing machine but if maintained correctly will save lives. I know i was strict on brakes and tyres but i never had a complaint against me to the authorities. Decent and honest garages keep going, back street ones don't last long.

I am still amazed that it is legal to have different makes of tyre on the same axle, they may be rated the same but their rubber compound is different giving them different handling characteristics and more so different stopping distances, i.e. one tyre will skid before the other under extreme conditions which i personally consider unrealistic.

You would not have one shoe on your foot resoled if it had worn through without the other but on vehicles you can have 1.6mm of tread on one front tyre and 9mm of a completely different make on the other and that is legal but of course makes the car handle differently under wet conditions. I personally try to keep the same tread depth on both tyres on the same axle and preferably all 5 the same make. I personally bought a full size spare wheel and the same tyre from Toyota for my Rav4 as i considered the repair aerosol can supplied not up to the job.

Regards Mike.

[dudgeon]

Hi all, firstly i am not here to have a dig at anyone but just saying how it is as i see it with much experience. I have read of people fitting 2nd hand discs or pads, that's a big NO NO. I did MOT's on cars for years and it was quite common for a regular customer to have a Full Service and free MOT. Usually we would do the service first and that way if anything was wrong, i.e. the wheels were off, the disc's and pads could be inspected much more easily and me, the MOT tester as shown by the mechanic that the brakes were in poor condition although still working, brakes are consumables like tyres or wiper blades etc.

Each job/customer was of course different and if a customers trusted 'us' we'd end up changing the discs/pads either before or after the MOT depending on how the rest of the car looked and how well we knew the customer, pointless removing the wheels twice if unnecessary. We would have seized pads in the carrier that we would chisel out and the lining material would sometimes fall off the backing plate giving us the satisfaction that we had saved this happening to someone on the road with possible horrendous consequences. Doing a full service is half the MOT anyway and it was a way of generating more work/money and a more through job doing the 2 together. If the pads were worn excessively low i would fail the brakes on a safety issue, similarly if the discs were below minimum thickness they would fail, if they were borderline then an advisory would be issued. If doing an MOT test and there was an excessive braking difference efficiency between the wheels on the same axle then the car would fail.

It's all about safety and stopping distances etc, quality parts work better but is was how much the customer wanted to pay/ generic parts, OE or decent copies.

Doing an MOT test only we were not allowed to even remove wheel trims to inspect the brakes, pathetic i felt, incase a clip broke or anything, the best we could do is inspect the brakes with and inspection lamp and small mirror from underneath and make a decision that way but due to design it was not always possible to see the pad lining material thickness but if the discs had a heavy wear lip on the outer rim i could fail the discs on that point which always meant new pads as well. We were not out to con people but to keep the car in safe working order as peoples lives were at stake.

I personally have no experience of Aygo brakes, been out of the game too long but if my OE (Original Equipment) ones seemed to be poor i would change to a different premium make as they stop the car more quickly than cheap ones, that could mean the difference from crashing or even a child's life on a zebra crossing.

A lot depends on your attitude to your car, i want mine as safe as possible and not run as cheaply as i can get away with. When my wife takes our car out i know it is as safe as it can be, good brakes, quality same make quality tyres so if she should crash at least i know i couldn't of done anything more about the car to avoid accidents.

I personally don't like having discs skimmed as it only reduces the thickness of the disc and once it is worn below minimum manufacturers recommended thickness they are scrap anyway and warranty on skimmed discs is very questionable, personally i would fit new every time even if money was tight i would fit cheaper generic ones if i had to but this can open up another can of worms as cheap discs split/crack, so if you can afford it, regular strip downs, parts cleaned, slides emery clothed or similar and fit quality parts if you can afford them, they usually last longer anyway and definitely are more efficient.

Regards Mike169

Hi Mike 169,

I agree with all your comments. I may have been exagerating slightly re the 20 years in a field scenario but I was really ust trying to make a point that the friction material becoming detatched after such a short time is not good enough. It is fairly obvious from the pics. that the ones on my car did not rust off overnight as the rusting is quite severe and has been creeping in for some time. I have spoken to a garage owner and an ex MOT man and they both say that all the MOT proves is that the efficiency of the brakes was OK at the point of testing. Both have had cars back with problems within a day or two of the test! A lot of people will assume that a pass means AOK. Not so. They can fail 10 minutes later.

Removing the pads for checking on the Aygo while not being difficult, involves removing the caliper or swinging it out the way after removing one guide pin bolt but complete removal of the caliper is easier in the long run. It is a bit of extra hassle compared to some assemblies where the pads can be removed more easily and may well be a bit offputing for some. One thing that surprised me was that Haynes quote 1mm as the minimum thickness for pad material. I don't know what Toyota quote but I would not feel happy if they were down to 1mm.

The pads and calipers on my car were OE Bosch manufacture. I have now fitted Brembo discs and pads , not the cheapest but I will still keep a close eye on them. Brembo claim better corrosion resistance so heres hoping.

[Raistlin]

I agree an MOT just means that at the time of the test variables were working, but there is no guarantee that it will last.

Always check your vehicles and don't take a test certificate as proof that it is mechanically sound.

[Mike169]

Hi all, i was always led to understand that the MOT test was technically only valid for the day it was written on in so much as a bulb could blow within minutes afterwards or someone could switch the wheels/tyres with another vehicle soon after the test.

Just because brakes may make the req'd figures on the brake machine means nothing to their condition.

Regular servicing is very important and once you find a garage/person you trust stick with them, yes no one like spending money on their cars but if it saves someone's life then i think it is our duty as we drive our vehicles to keep them properly and safely maintained.

Mike

[AlanTR]

My 60 plate Aygo Black had its first MOT at around 12500 miles at a Toyota dealer. The brake discs were changed due to corrosion. This was done under warranty. I was told that Toyota warranty brake discs for the first 3 years.

When I bought the car (second hand) with approx. 10,000 miles, the brake discs had just been renewed due to corrosion.

The dealer told me, on both occasions, that the corrosion was due to low use. Next time the discs need changing I'll do it myself using non-Toyota discs. As an engineer, I find it hard to accept that Aygo discs need changing every 12 months due to corrosion brought about by low use. I have owned lots of cars with disc brakes over a period of 45 years and this is the first time I've experienced disc corrosion as frequent as the Aygo. I suspect the Aygo disc material spec is of low quality.