Are Diesel Cars Still Worth It?

[boozehound]

With diesel engines becomming more expensive and increasingly more complicated in their construction (what with egr valves, dpf exhaust systems, vgt's etc) and also with diesel fuel being more expensive than petroleum distillate are diesel cars still worth getting? When i say cars i exclude large people carriers and 4x4's, for this discussion i am specifically talking about hatches and saloons and estates. Thoughts please

[Bos]

With diesel engines becomming more expensive and increasingly more complicated in their construction (what with egr valves, dpf exhaust systems, vgt's etc) and also with diesel fuel being more expensive than petroleum distillate are diesel cars still worth getting? When i say cars i exclude large people carriers and 4x4's, for this discussion i am specifically talking about hatches and saloons and estates. Thoughts please

If you do more than 25k a year I would have thought so. ( Servicing is usually more expensive )

Don't forget that road tax is usually cheaper, but insurance is usually 1 or 2 groups higher.

[boozehound]

ok so there certainly is an argument for having a diesel for high mileage drivers. What about average driving? say 10-12k a year?

[passedit2]

Like everything else it depends on a lot of factors. If you are buying new you can expect to pay up to £2K more for a diesel. More if you go upmarket. I have read that you will have to drive more than 50000 miles to recover that premium over a petrol in fuel consumption. Only then will you see a small return for the extra investment. But as mentioned more expensive fuel and servicing, plus blocked filters etc if you do not give it a good thrashing on a regular basis may reduce this return to nil. In terms of depreciation they still loose say over 3 years roughly the same percentage as a petrol.Maybe slightly less but there's not a lot in it.

If you do a very high mileage or intend to keep your car for years and years a diesel may pay its way.

Perhaps I am wrong here but the new generation of Hybrid cars, (Prius etc) are the next step forward and may make the diesel a thing of the past. Strange that if diesels are so efficient and are going to save the planet they don't use them in Hybrid cars.

[boozehound]

I dont think hybrid cars are the future unless you do mostly city driving wereby running on electric is very impressive. Initial reports state that toyotas new hybrid gets nowere near the quoted 74mpg it claims. I dont think you can have a diesel hyrbrid due to the fact that a petrol and diesel engine are quite different, eg, the fuel injection systems, exhaust systems etc. When a hybrid car needs more power the petrol engine automatically fires up to create the extra push but i dont think a diesel engine could be started as quickly, perhaps the tekkies of this forum know the particulars. Back to the post though, i think it is safe to say then that we have ruled out that ultra high mileage drivers who intend to keep their cars for years should opt for a diesel.

[dervdave]

Perhaps I am wrong here but the new generation of Hybrid cars, (Prius etc) are the next step forward and may make the diesel a thing of the past. Strange that if diesels are so efficient and are going to save the planet they don't use them in Hybrid cars.

Top Gear did !

[OldSkoO1]

Petrols are going the same way - some of the latest German petrol engine builds now come complete with high pressure fuel rails, expensive injectors and fuel pumps.

Essentially the same type of fuel injection system as a diesel.

Any replacements will be expensive on petrol's too. Of course it side steps the issue of excessive carbon build up, requiring the application of a DPF.

The issue runs deeper. Largely most manufacturers can run effectively with DPF/EGR/DMF setups. It's the people who buy diesel cars who run around town a lot which results in break downs and premature DMF failure. Overall, a 2k premium instantly wasted, higher fuel costs, greater risk of failure due to short journeys.

Even if you only do 12-15k a year, like i do, providing you buy wisely, do mostly longer journeys, drive with sense and use good fuel then diesel is a very good option.

[boozehound]

Ok, so another ruling out we have, dont get a diesel if you do alot of inner city driving. In this instance opt for a small petrol engined car say for example the 1.0litre toyota yaris (which is very economoical, i used to have one) or if you have more money then get a hybrid. Now we move on to sub-urban driving, the type i do alot of myself.

[OldSkoO1]

If 80% of your journeys are sub-urban and greater than 15 miles minimum 1 way then i'd say yes, diesel is an option, providing you buy wise 2nd hand OR negotiate a good purchase price from new, it would be worth it even on lower mileages.

However, for pure fun, a decent N/A petrol all the way.

[boozehound]

Naturally aspirated petrol? you mean like the 1.8vvtl-i engine toyota used to do? i dont know you know, i like my turbo's :)

[OldSkoO1]

Yes sir but i wasn't thinking about the 1.8 vvti though

Maybe some 3litre straight six engines, then the merc AMG units

The toyota block only really works when they transplant it into a light weight elise. Simply because toyota post supra can't set up their chassis to fully compliment the engine.

[hertsnminds]

Strange that if diesels are so efficient and are going to save the planet they don't use them in Hybrid cars.

It's just the Far East manufacturers couldn't work out how to do it so it was left to the Europeans to sort out.

The agreement calls for Bosch to co-develop, produce and supply electric motors and power electronics for PSA's four-wheel-drive diesel hybrid powertrain unveiled at the Paris motor show last October in the Peugeot Prologue and Citroën Hypnos concept cars. The technology will be used in PSA vehicles from 2011.

Source http://www.just-auto.com/news/psa-and-bosch-agree-diesel-hybrid-deal_id97128.aspx

Average diesel consumption for these two cars is 3.4 litres per 100 kilometres, with 90 grams of CO2 emitted per kilometre, tank to wheel - a record for compact cars, the most popular segment in Europe. This is some 25% better than a similar vehicle equipped with a petrol hybrid system, or as much as a litre per 100 kilometres in combined urban and motorway driving.

Source http://go-testdrive.com/news_6236.htm

[Parts-King]

I can see the day in the not too distant future where diesel engines will be dropped in favour of Hybrids, particularly as Toyota have the technology. Diesel will stay for commercials but I'm sure passenger car diesels will start to drop off as more and more hybrids are made. The "Green" issue will force for lower and lower particulate levels so it would be easier to drop diesel in favour of hybrid

Kingo

[don21]

Agree with Parts King.

10 years max and diesels are finished for passenger vehicles.

[boozehound]

as long as the hybrid cars are powerful, i believe lexus do a 4 litre v6 engine bolted onto a hybrid, now i wouldnt mind driving that day to day :D

[Badgers]

I've came from a Audi S3 to the T180.

TBH, I'm not sure the difference in running costs is that great, the difference in power (the s3 was close to 300bhp) and road holding is big.

All in, ignoring the faults the Auris has given me, I'm not sure I made the right choice going from a powerful petrol to a powerful diesel. However I may change the opinion when I start doing the 400ml motorway journeys again.

[Mooly]

On servicing costs the Auris 1.33 petrol is dearer than the 1.4 diesel due apparently to the special oil used.

[boozehound]

i heard that too

[Parts-King]

True it is, but not by a fortune, the 1.33 engines use 0w 20 oil

Kingo

[Cyker]

I dunno... I am not a big fan of hybrids at the moment because nobody has figured a decent alternative to chemical batteries yet. I'm waiting to see what happens to all the first generation Prius' when their Battery packs come up for replacement...!

I'm trying to imagine a hybrid Yaris or Aygo, and I can't see it working without either loosing all the space to batteries, or making it the size of an Auris. Either way, it'd be a lot heavier than it is now (My diesel Yaris doesn't even come to a ton!).

I've also wondered why nobody's made a diesel electric hybrid yet, but I think it's because diesels need to run hot to be efficient, and they might not get time to warm up enough except on long journeys.

Diesel tech is advancing all the time tho', so you never know, and it's worked okay for submarines!

I am slightly biased tho' as a diesel convert :)

The diesel Yaris suits my driving style a lot more than the petrol one, and it's as powerful as the 1.3 with the running costs of the 1.0 :)

Also, a diesel car is also the only car you can get with a turbo without your insurance going through the roof

[OldSkoO1]

Time will tell with hybrids.

In their current state i'm not a fan. Never driven the v6 hybrid in the lexus and i know porsche now have their own hybrids but the prius i drove was pretty dull. Great for driving around town but its very expensive and looks funny. For me there was no thrill in driving it.

[Mooly]

Daily Telegraph a couple of weeks back (Honest John motoring supplement) reckoned that hybrids will become hard to sell on as they approach 4 or 5 years old, as the trade and buyers will be very wary of replacement Battery costs.

Also the performance of any Battery deteriorates progresively with age (think of Li-on laptop batteries), so I wonder if the cars will still meet their claimed economy and performance a few years down the line when the Battery can't power the car for as long and as well.

Electric power has to be the way foward but not as it is at present.

[boozehound]

lets just pray for hydrogen. Also here is food for thought, james may did a program or a series of programs a a year ago and in one of his programs he visited a couple of fellas in some desert in america who were able to make unleaded petrol out of a few chemicals and by exposing them to the sun in some kind of machine that lots of mirrors. Im not kidding. The technology is in the prototype stages but apparently this machine will make eventually up to 50 litres of unleaded petrol a day!

[OldSkoO1]

Daily Telegraph a couple of weeks back (Honest John motoring supplement) reckoned that hybrids will become hard to sell on as they approach 4 or 5 years old, as the trade and buyers will be very wary of replacement battery costs.

Also the performance of any battery deteriorates progresively with age (think of Li-on laptop batteries), so I wonder if the cars will still meet their claimed economy and performance a few years down the line when the battery can't power the car for as long and as well.

Electric power has to be the way foward but not as it is at present.

Good point, i forgot about the deterioration Battery issues.

I see these hybrids as the automotive equivalent of say, a laser disc. Sound really good on paper but in reality they just can't beat the established technologies. Like Concorde. Would promise the world, but, they are loud, expensive, limited and face very stiff competition. Eventually to be killed off.

No point in re-inventing the wheel.

As for electric cars. I wish would just stop now. I mean seriously. A green alternative. Hello.... Where does the electricity come from. The range whilst i'm sure it can be improved is AWFUL. Completely impractical, would cost hundreds of millions to build a re-charging infrastructure and would only work if the government banned all other cars so we are forced to buy them. Which will never happen.

http://www.fly.co.uk/co2-emissions.html

[Parts-King]

lets just pray for hydrogen. Also here is food for thought, james may did a program or a series of programs a a year ago and in one of his programs he visited a couple of fellas in some desert in america who were able to make unleaded petrol out of a few chemicals and by exposing them to the sun in some kind of machine that lots of mirrors. Im not kidding. The technology is in the prototype stages but apparently this machine will make eventually up to 50 litres of unleaded petrol a day!

Hydrogen driven cars are a long long way down the line. Hybrid will be the future for the next 20 years. There might be the technology to mass produce hydrogen, but while there is oil in the ground, the oil companies wont want to invest in providing hydrogen at the pumps

Electric motors are immense and produce tons of power, why do you think trains run on it? The problem for electric motors in the car is storing it in a Battery, but as technology improves so will batteries and the distance you can drive on them

Kingo