Are Diesel Cars Still Worth It?

[boozehound]

what do you think of those two guys producing fuel without crude oil though! there is the solution to unleaded running out lol

[passedit2]

If Hybrids are to be the future for the next 20 years then there is a lot of development work to be done.

They weigh far more than a normal car, they cost extra to buy ( Hybrid Auris some £4k more than a 1.4 and not far off the price of the bigger Prius) and a modern petrol/diesel with stop/start etc is not far behind in fuel consumption. Also the batteries have a relatively limited life and cost a fortune to replace. I suspect that people may buy them to be seen to be green.

The current Hybrids from Toyota and Honda are a rare sight on our roads and until they become more affordable and efficient I think will remain so.

As for Electric only cars, just look at the Sinclair C5.

[Parts-King]

If Hybrids are to be the future for the next 20 years then there is a lot of development work to be done.

Yes that is what we call progress, things change and evolve, nobody ever thought about hybrid but Toyota bit the bullet, made the technology happen and now everybody wants it. Toyota are at the forefront and are now able to licence their product for use with other manufacturers

They weigh far more than a normal car, they cost extra to buy ( Hybrid Auris some £4k more than a 1.4 and not far off the price of the bigger Prius) and a modern petrol/diesel with stop/start etc is not far behind in fuel consumption. Also the batteries have a relatively limited life and cost a fortune to replace. I suspect that people may buy them to be seen to be green.

Yes they do, but again, with progress, batteries will become smaller/lighter/more powerful, look at the batteries used in mobile phones for instance, remember what they were like when they first came out?

The current Hybrids from Toyota and Honda are a rare sight on our roads and until they become more affordable and efficient I think will remain so.

There were less than 1% of cars on the road that were hybrid in 2007, there are expected to be 10% by 2015, and the more mass produced they get, the more will be sold

As for Electric only cars, just look at the Sinclair C5.

and your point of that little pearl of wisdom? How can you relate a C5 to any modern electric car? Oh yes thats correct.......PROGRESS, todays electric cars look and drive nothing like a C5, but then again does the modern iPhone look like a brick phone from the past?

Hybrid is here to stay for the next 20 years or so whether you like it or not, it's not for everybody, but mass production will reduce prices, there is a good market for used Prius, nobody is put off by possible Battery problems

Kingo

[boozehound]

ok noone was listening to me

[passedit2]

Parts- King.

I deeply regret that I mentioned the C5, obviously a degree of humour is unacceptable.

I prostrate myself for your forgiveness.

[caveman_si]

Boozehound I remember that programme of James May's the guys were using basic hydro carbon gases, methane i think and some solar powered heating kit plus some jiggery pokary mixing in a catalyist but as you say it some potential but only as long as you have a good of methane.

AS for hybrids they are just like an other car, look how far modern cars have progressed from the model T ford? They will develop as more people by them. You never know chemical batteries may be phased out in favour of kinetic devices, like the kers system that i believe porche have in there hybrid (got it from the williams F1 team too)

I managed a drive in the Auris Hybrid last week and though it was good. I prefer its interia to the 1.4 auris that the GF has. It handed better and if anything had a little more poke at the slower speeds. I didnt like the braking but thats cos it was my drive of hybrid and I got used to it. BUt if i was getting a car for around town driving then I would seriously consider it as it make sense.

[boozehound]

Well we are never going to run out of methane, ever lol

[Cyker]

Yeah, I saw that James May thing too; Is perfectly feasible (Petrol/Diesel is just a load of Carbon and Hydrogen atoms stuck together after all :) There's your flood water and greenhouse gasses taken care of; Just add sunlight! ), but you never hear much about it which is a bit suspicious, esp. given how old that programme is.

Considering it should cost those guys virtually nothing to create (All the cost is in the initial assembly), you'd think they'd be rolling in money by now, even if they just set up a petrol station near their array and sold the fuel there!

Battery tech will be slow; Chemically there isn't much further we can go, so it's mainly about boosting efficiency with clever nano-thingies. I had hoped so-called super-capacitors would get more research done (Full charge in a second instead of hours, don't degrade after a few years!), but research has stagnated a bit there. Seen 'em used in a few things but nothing on a car scale.

Formula 1 was a bit disappointing, but I am hoping they do re-introduce KERS next year.

The KERS power storage on an F1 car was pretty !Removed! atrocious tho'; They used a lithium ion Battery pack, which holds much more power than the Prius' lead-acid cells, but they had to throw it away at the end of every race (!!!) because the cells would be completely shot!!

Considering that pack alone cost more than I paid for my Yaris, you can probably understand my skepticism ;)

I love the idea about electrical vehicles (As opposed to hybrids), but I feel it will be a long way before we figure out a way of storing lots of electrical energy in a small space safely to make it practical.

I thought the Topgear idea of having a diesel generator was genius tho'; I wonder how much mpg you could get out of a tiny turbo-diesel or petrol motor tuned for maximum efficiency and minimum emissions that just powered a decent electric motor and a small buffer-battery/cap. I'd bet you could pass the 100mpg mark easily!

(Whether the car would be a pain to drive is another matter... )

Battery tech hasn't really moved much at all TBH; The main types are:

Lead-acid/calcium ion - Can be charged and discharged repeatedly with low degradation, can take high current draw (lots of amps!), low energy density (runs out quick), cheap

NiCad/MH - Holds more energy, suffers from memory effect; needs to be looked after a lot more, can take fairly high current draw, more expensive, wears out faster than lead-acid when repeatedly charged/discharged

LiIon/Poly - Highest energy density of common batteries, crap current draw (If you tried to start a car with one, it'd probably blow up; Need many in parallel), expensive, needs advanced charging circuitry to stop it exploding due to overcharging, also wears out very quickly if repeatedly charged/discharged

The reason things like phones can do so much more and last longer while being smaller is partly down to the move to LiIon, but is more down to the electronics drawing a fraction of the power that they used to. (Stuff needing 5-12V was not uncommon; Now it's more like 0.5-1v!)

(Sorry, I have a lot of interest in energy tech :D)

[boozehound]

no its quite alright, the more info the better, we have reached some interesting conclusions in this topic methinks

[Rumbly]

Diesels were only ever worth it in an cost sense if you did enough milage to mitigate the exta initial cost. I'm not sure how much more it actually costs to manufacture a diesel over a petrol, could be there is very little difference and the price differential is based on how much manufactures recon folk will pay?

There are I believe many countries where diessel fuel is less expensive than petrol, obviously they will be more attractive in those countries.

Never could understand why hybrids use petrol engines, on the surface diesels should provide better fuel economy, but I'm not an expert in the tech so don't really know if there is a valid reason. I do suspect however that it might be because America is the biggest hybrid market and they just don't like diesels.

Diesels have very different power delivery characteristics, lots of power low in the rev range and plenty of grunt, something which personally I like. Relaxing to drive, great for towing heavy trailers etc, motorway cruising at low rpm with good economy.

as you (boozhound) say, diesels are getting more complex. One of the attrations always was low mantenance costs and reliability, certainly if the complexity affects reliability and/or appreciably raises maintenance costs I can see sales slowing.

TBH I don't see the demise of the diesel car anytime soon, fuel price differential in the uk is now around 2p per litre, and I wouldn't be surprised if there is a fair bit of room for manufacturers to reduce the price difference if they wanted to. I can see a large market for small diesels too, say 1.0 litre (or even smaller) turbos.

[Cyker]

Yeah; Older diesels were overbuilt with solid steel engine blocks and relatively simple ancillaries (The injectors were probably the most complex part of the engine!), but the more modern ones, esp. alloy engines, are not as solid, and they are getting a lot more complicated with silly things like the EGR and more useful things like turbos and intercoolers.

There is still a lot of potential for extracting more power out of a given diesel engine, although a lot of that is hampered by environmental concerns, and the raw cost of diesel will always be lower than other fuels like petrol and lpg while having a better power density, so it makes sense.

TBH, the only disadvantage diesel has is that it had the most toxic emissions of the three but as the tech for piezo computer controlled injectors improves that will hopefully become less of a problem (And then they can get rid of the £$%@#& EGR!!!)

[boozehound]

This has been a wonderful topic gentlemen. And ladies if there are any. I think we have covered the subject quite well. I dont know why everyone seems to think im obnoxious because i defected to vag but goes to show that im really not.

[acetip]

Yeah; Older diesels were overbuilt with solid steel engine blocks and relatively simple ancillaries (The injectors were probably the most complex part of the engine!), but the more modern ones, esp. alloy engines, are not as solid, and they are getting a lot more complicated with silly things like the EGR and more useful things like turbos and intercoolers.

There is still a lot of potential for extracting more power out of a given diesel engine, although a lot of that is hampered by environmental concerns, and the raw cost of diesel will always be lower than other fuels like petrol and lpg while having a better power density, so it makes sense.

TBH, the only disadvantage diesel has is that it had the most toxic emissions of the three but as the tech for piezo computer controlled injectors improves that will hopefully become less of a problem (And then they can get rid of the £$%@#& EGR!!!)

diesel cars have turbos and intrcoolers fitted to them for at least the last 25 years.

i had these fittd on vw in 1985 including hydraulic tappets.

piezo injectors were in use before WW11

[boozehound]

yes but piezo injectors were not used in day to day vehicles lol back in world war two.

[acetip]

yes but piezo injectors were not used in day to day vehicles lol back in world war two.

hi boozehound

thsts very true.

i rememberwhen i was on day release from my apprenticeship to attened tec colledge.diesls were hardly mentioned as

not many vehicles used them then including lorries. this was back in ninteen fifties .

but were given a variety of injectors to strip out then rebuild and test on a injector test rig, basicly a pump

whos handle you pumped until the injector sprayed, you then took notes of the pressure reading on the gauge on the

rig.on early diesel the injector pump be it an inline pump or rotary was a very precision piece of kit.

more so than any injector and very expensive to replace. the tolerances in them were very very fine indeed.

but time has moved and we now have common rail etc. so may further progress will get rid of the draw backs like

egr,particulate filters dmf.

it seem ford a going to produde a diesl without a dmf by controlling torque in lower gears electronicly.

if this is succesful it will get rid of one of the weak and expensive part assosiated with modern diesel.