Black Smoke, Not An Egr Ou Maf Fault

[kashbg]

Hi there,

My 2004 Avensis T3-S, D4D, 100,003 miles, started giving black smoke. It doesn't burn any oil, 100%. I took it to Mr T in Croydon for a diagnostic scan. Mr T. came back with nothing other than recommendation to change the EGR valve. This is OK, but I wanted to find out did they get any error codes leading them to recommend change, or it was simply an educated guess. Their technical manager got to me on the phone and started giving me the story that they actually took it out and found out it was blocked. That was complete lie as I could tell if the valve was taken off at all, the engine dust and dirt that has been building on the outside of the valve was undisturbed. The guy was insisting that I could not tell if they took it out or not as apparently it is located under the plastic cover plate. Well, I knew that already but another question threw him off balance. I asked him to if the gasket was changed if the valve had been taken off. He had to come out clean, that the valve was probably not taken out. He told me that since they believed the EGR valve was the cause of the problem they did not bother checking the values of the injectors or the Turbo. I was very upset as I paid for a full engine diagnostic scan and all they did was recommending the EGR valve and rear wiper split.

The following few days I took out the EGR valve gave it very good clean until it looked like new with all the chrome parts shining. Vacuum was good, the seat of the valve was absolutely perfect. Fitted it back on and there was no change at all the car still gave slight black smoke if you toy with the throttle in low revs, like if you would be reversing. Next I decided to blank it off. Made a gasket out of can of beer fitted it on and still no change. Then I changed the MAF filter to another one I had from before and still no change. Next I sprayed a full 500ml can of Carburetor Cleaner down the Intake, removing all the flexible houses and revving the engine and still no change.

I have to say that the car has normal power and acceleration. One thing I noticed was that if I run the engine with the air intake directly exposed without going through the air filter the car smoked very little. As soon as I connect the houses to the filter the smoking comes back. The air filter is brand new K&N.

I am confused what else could it be. I have recently changed the oil and diesel filter too.

Any help,

Thanks

[The Cav]

it seems to me that these engines do like to smoke

mine was doing it a few weeks back esp when trying to accelerate from low speed

i cleaned the egr valve etc to no avail so had a mate check it out

the diagnostic found a problem with the turbo so a shot of turbo cleaner was sprayed into the turbo

also i put a bottle of FORTE diesel cleaner into the tank

anyway that seemed to work

last week i did a big run Liverpool to Torquay and the car performed faultlessly

except for 1 day when it seemed to smoke all day every time i changed up

then suddenly the car seemed to give a bit of a lurch and started to run better and the smoke stopped

for my journey back to Liverpool i topped the diesel up with Shell DIESEL and the car has been superb since

i had filled up the tank to go to Torquay with SAINSBURY CITY DIESEL and i think that may have been the problem

use good diesel avoid the supermarkets seems to help right now the car is running superbly quick and is better on fuel

[Q.S.]

Hi there,

My 2004 Avensis T3-S, 100,003 miles, started giving black smoke. It doesn't burn any oil, 100%. I took it to Mr T in Croydon for a diagnostic scan. Mr T. came back with nothing other than recommendation to change the EGR valve. This is OK, but I wanted to find out did they get any error codes leading them to recommend change, or it was simply an educated guess. Their technical manager got to me on the phone and started giving me the story that they actually took it out and found out it was blocked. That was complete lie as I could tell if the valve was taken off at all, the engine dust and dirt that has been building on the outside of the valve was undisturbed. The guy was insisting that I could not tell if they took it out or not as apparently it is located under the plastic cover plate. Well, I knew that already but another question threw him off balance. I asked him to if the gasket was changed if the valve had been taken off. He had to come out clean, that the valve was probably not taken out. He told me that since they believed the EGR valve was the cause of the problem they did not bother checking the values of the injectors or the Turbo. I was very upset as I paid for a full engine diagnostic scan and all they did was recommending the EGR valve and rear wiper split.

The following few days I took out the EGR valve gave it very good clean until it looked like new with all the chrome parts shining. Vacuum was good, the seat of the valve was absolutely perfect. Fitted it back on and there was no change at all the car still gave slight black smoke if you toy with the throttle in low revs, like if you would be reversing. Next I decided to blank it off. Made a gasket out of can of beer fitted it on and still no change. Then I changed the MAF filter to another one I had from before and still no change. Next I sprayed a full 500ml can of Carburetor Cleaner down the Intake, removing all the flexible houses and revving the engine and still no change.

I have to say that the car has normal power and acceleration. One thing I noticed was that if I run the engine with the air intake directly exposed without going through the air filter the car smoked very little. As soon as I connect the houses to the filter the smoking comes back. The air filter is brand new K&N.

I am confused what else could it be. I have recently changed the oil and diesel filter too.

Any help,

Thanks

If you blanked off the EGR and got 'no change' doesn't this suggest to you that the EGR is not actually doing anything? i.e. not working?

[kennny1000]

If you have normal power I don't think that it is your EGR valve, though I may be wrong. If the smoke goes away when the air filter is not in line then I would suggest that your problem lies there. A car of mine (not my Avensis) was smoking a lot, failed its MOT and the garage told me it was my injectors. Had a little think about it, did some research and changed a few bits and hey presto problem solved when the air filter was changed. The new air filter I put in before the MOT was duff. Just something to think about and good luck.

[kashbg]

Thanks

If you blanked off the EGR and got 'no change' doesn't this suggest to you that the EGR is not actually doing anything? i.e. not working?

Hi thanks for the reply,

I might be wrong but I believed an EGR valve would be faluty if it gets stuck with carbon and the valve doesn't actually close completely, efectivley leaking exhaust back in the chember all the time. Thanks for the sugestion, I would further investigate on that.

Regards,

[kashbg]

If you have normal power I don't think that it is your EGR valve, though I may be wrong. If the smoke goes away when the air filter is not in line then I would suggest that your problem lies there. A car of mine (not my Avensis) was smoking a lot, failed its MOT and the garage told me it was my injectors. Had a little think about it, did some research and changed a few bits and hey presto problem solved when the air filter was changed. The new air filter I put in before the MOT was duff. Just something to think about and good luck.

Hey there, thanks for the reply.

I seem to be inclined to think like you. The car seems to struggle to get the required air through the air intake. That is one of the reason I went recently for the performance easy flow K&N filter. I did feel the difference. I have tried to even look down the air intake and spray full bottle of Carb. Cleaner but still no change. The power seems to get better when the weather is slightly cooler, but that is logical isn't it. Cooler air has more oxygen within same sample volume than hot air. I feel as if at the initial throtle down the car is starved from air, smoke comes out, then it catches up with the air intake and is running normally, accelerating well. The other scenario is something is making the mixture richer of fuel at the initial throttle down and then levels out.

The quest continues.

[The Cav]

chuck a bottle of forte in the tank and give it a good run

[Beagh1958]

Are you 100% sure the EGR valve is not at fault. You will bw aware from stripping and cleaning unit that it is electronically operated, it is quite common for valve to look in perfect working order (alloy body with pintel inside)but did you check operation of solenoid bolted to top of unit. Just a thought, your problem maywell lie elsewhere. It's just that i had a car recently (without the smoke problem) that was holding back just a touch,just enough to annoy you, swapped valve from another vehicle & she was of like a shot. The ECM also had no error code relaing to valve in the ECM memory, which was odd. keep us posted on how you get on.

Regards, Beagh.

[kashbg]

Are you 100% sure the EGR valve is not at fault. You will bw aware from stripping and cleaning unit that it is electronically operated, it is quite common for valve to look in perfect working order (alloy body with pintel inside)but did you check operation of solenoid bolted to top of unit. Just a thought, your problem maywell lie elsewhere. It's just that i had a car recently (without the smoke problem) that was holding back just a touch,just enough to annoy you, swapped valve from another vehicle & she was of like a shot. The ECM also had no error code relaing to valve in the ECM memory, which was odd. keep us posted on how you get on.

Regards, Beagh.

Hi there, thanks for the reply,

I thought about the electronic part located on top of the EGR valve. In my first post I mentioned that I fitted a blank gasket together with the original and the EGR valve on top. This way I believe, I isolated the valve, effectively simulating that it is closed all the time - no leaks. The car still produced black smoke.

Does anybody know anything about this DPF (Diesel Particle Filter) filter? If that is blocked then what would be the symptoms? In the last 3 years the car has mainly been driven by my wife on short runs 10-15min at a time to pick up the kids from school.

Regards,

[kashbg]

it seems to me that these engines do like to smoke

mine was doing it a few weeks back esp when trying to accelerate from low speed

i cleaned the egr valve etc to no avail so had a mate check it out

the diagnostic found a problem with the turbo so a shot of turbo cleaner was sprayed into the turbo

also i put a bottle of FORTE diesel cleaner into the tank

anyway that seemed to work

last week i did a big run Liverpool to Torquay and the car performed faultlessly

except for 1 day when it seemed to smoke all day every time i changed up

then suddenly the car seemed to give a bit of a lurch and started to run better and the smoke stopped

for my journey back to Liverpool i topped the diesel up with SHELL DIESEL and the car has been superb since

i had filled up the tank to go to Torquay with SAINSBURY CITY DIESEL and i think that may have been the problem

use good diesel avoid the supermarkets seems to help right now the car is running superbly quick and is better on fuel

Hi there again,

I just saw a post about DPF filter, there is a good explanation as to what that is in general. http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/fuels-and-environment/diesel-particulate-filters.html

I will take the car to the motorway and try to keep some high revs maybe in 4th. I will keep you posted as to the outcome. I just hope the DPF filter, if I have one, is not blocked beyond regeneration.

Thanks for your input so far guys.

[caveman_si]

Hi there again,

I just saw a post about DPF filter, there is a good explanation as to what that is in general. http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/fuels-and-environment/diesel-particulate-filters.html

I will take the car to the motorway and try to keep some high revs maybe in 4th. I will keep you posted as to the outcome. I just hope the DPF filter, if I have one, is not blocked beyond regeneration.

Thanks for your input so far guys.

Just seen your last few post esp the one about the wife and short town driving. Diesel cars with DPF filters have to be driven hard regularly to clear them, nothing but town driving will clog the egr, and the dpf.

I would recomend sticking in some decent fuel either Shell or BPS finest, (I prefer Shell as it happens). I would also get some millers ecomax fuel treatment like http://www.opieoils.co.uk/p-60222-millers-oils-diesel-power-ecomax-fuel-treatment.aspx It can be found in halford or any other car parts place. Stick it in the car as directed on the pack for the heavey/large dose. (Cant remeber exactly but think it 50ml of the stuff to a tank.)

I would then take the car out and get it warm, and im talking a good 15-30 mins of just regular driving to get it up to temp then give it a good italian tune up as they say. If you've got any long big hills to go up even better.

[kashbg]

Just seen your last few post esp the one about the wife and short town driving. Diesel cars with DPF filters have to be driven hard regularly to clear them, nothing but town driving will clog the egr, and the dpf.

I would recomend sticking in some decent fuel either Shell or BPS finest, (I prefer Shell as it happens). I would also get some millers ecomax fuel treatment like http://www.opieoils.co.uk/p-60222-millers-oils-diesel-power-ecomax-fuel-treatment.aspx It can be found in halford or any other car parts place. Stick it in the car as directed on the pack for the heavey/large dose. (Cant remeber exactly but think it 50ml of the stuff to a tank.)

I would then take the car out and get it warm, and im talking a good 15-30 mins of just regular driving to get it up to temp then give it a good italian tune up as they say. If you've got any long big hills to go up even better.

Thanks for the advise,

I will take the car out on the motorway this weekend. It is worth the try.

[kashbg]

Hi there,

Just to update, tried the above and there was very little difference. Next, I am looking at EGR pipe or blocked up catalisator on the exhaust.

The car aparently doesn't have a DPF filter.

[kashbg]

Hi there again,

I had given up on that problem. My local garage passed it through MOT so there was no pressing matter to solve the problem. I had gone out a few time to do some motorway driving for 3 hours at the time and it seemed the smoking was less for about a week, then it reverted to same old way. The more we drove the car short runs, the more it got cloged up and smoked more.

I had just sopken with Mr T asking if my 2004 Avensis 2.0 Turbo disel has any Cat Converters that could be getting cloged up. The rep told me that he has heard similar stories and was told that a unit that sits on the Turbo gets cloged up by some valve that is supposed to let cold and hot air through, depending on if you have the throttle floored or not. He was not sure if this valve is the EGR valve or something else.

I am enclosing a picture of this so called " Converter Exhaust Manufold" listed as item 25051. Can anyone throw some light on that please?

[Mistermena]

I found that using a fuel additive called BG244 helps so much in cleaning the EGR. You can buy a new genuine Toyota EGR valve and pipe off eBay for £130 dlivered. I found that when I used the BG244 there was a slight burning smell coming from the exhaust! This I thing is the product burning off the carbon deposits.

I took off my EGR (always used Shell V-power Derv since I've owned the car) and found that the deposits on the valve were nothing like I've seen posted on here. It was more like a thin coating of black velvet which came off very easy with carb cleaner. Which must mean that the V-power is doing its job as it has twice the additive package of "Normal" Shell Diesel.

I also use Millers and Forte in the tank. Always miller when I fill up and BG244 at the stated intervals on the can. Maybe an over kill. But I think its worth the extra cost.

I to use the K&N panel air filer and that makes a difference in the flow air rate into the Turbo. The fuel filter maybe worth a change as I did with mine. Not to hard a job with the advise I got from Don on here.

[Nailbox]

Hello mate same problem with my car, used BG 248 3/4 of tank to go ! . Took mine to Toyota main dealer they said it was an injector sticking open and putting the car into limp mode . This causes black smoke lack of power from time to time . BG 248 or 244 will clean the EGR & turbo as well cleanig the engine. It also improve the ceatine rating of low sulphur fuels there selling today .my car is 2.0 d4d avensis 04 plate . Low sulphur fuel is crap & is killing are engines !!

[igormus]

Hi there,

My 2004 Avensis T3-S, D4D, 100,003 miles, started giving black smoke. It doesn't burn any oil, 100%. I took it to Mr T in Croydon for a diagnostic scan. Mr T. came back with nothing other than recommendation to change the EGR valve. This is OK, but I wanted to find out did they get any error codes leading them to recommend change, or it was simply an educated guess. Their technical manager got to me on the phone and started giving me the story that they actually took it out and found out it was blocked. That was complete lie as I could tell if the valve was taken off at all, the engine dust and dirt that has been building on the outside of the valve was undisturbed. The guy was insisting that I could not tell if they took it out or not as apparently it is located under the plastic cover plate. Well, I knew that already but another question threw him off balance. I asked him to if the gasket was changed if the valve had been taken off. He had to come out clean, that the valve was probably not taken out. He told me that since they believed the EGR valve was the cause of the problem they did not bother checking the values of the injectors or the Turbo. I was very upset as I paid for a full engine diagnostic scan and all they did was recommending the EGR valve and rear wiper split.

The following few days I took out the EGR valve gave it very good clean until it looked like new with all the chrome parts shining. Vacuum was good, the seat of the valve was absolutely perfect. Fitted it back on and there was no change at all the car still gave slight black smoke if you toy with the throttle in low revs, like if you would be reversing. Next I decided to blank it off. Made a gasket out of can of beer fitted it on and still no change. Then I changed the MAF filter to another one I had from before and still no change. Next I sprayed a full 500ml can of Carburetor Cleaner down the Intake, removing all the flexible houses and revving the engine and still no change.

I have to say that the car has normal power and acceleration. One thing I noticed was that if I run the engine with the air intake directly exposed without going through the air filter the car smoked very little. As soon as I connect the houses to the filter the smoking comes back. The air filter is brand new K&N.

I am confused what else could it be. I have recently changed the oil and diesel filter too.

Any help,

Thanks

hi mate

you ve an over fueling effect due to poor injection.

so the task is to calibrate all injectors, otherwise your next troubles will be turbo ans EGR etc etc

chers/Igor