Ss3 Modification Update

[Golden bay NZ]

Thank you. The stopwatch works for me too.

[Leeky]

Show me some proof that 0.3bar is possible with a ram air on a road car and i'll stand corrected. Otherwise i'll believe it when i see it and call BS until then...

I´m a racing driver

Your right, the stopwatch never lies and when the flag drops the bull stops. This had always been the case.

But the performance figures dont add up and a Dyno is the most reliable way of measuring an engines power output.

Of course a dyno does not take into account the chassis, vehicle weight or driver potential. But there is only so far you can go with lightening a car.

So your as Racing Driver huh? So you race Professionally as a full time job? Or amateur like myself and lots of others on this forum?

Which tracks have you raced? As i've done many competitions myself and would be curious to know what you have done. In 24hrs I'm taking another of my regular trips to the Nurburgring in Germany to put the ST205 through its paces.

Why do i take regular trips to the Nurburgring? Well aside from it being my idea of a holiday, its so that i know what my car is capable of and i can prove its performance.

I have my cars power output dyno proven and have a printout of the dyno session to prove it. Its weights exactly 1351kgs and my local weighing station will confirm that. I can pull 0-60 in under 4.8secs (proven at Santapod Raceways and i have a time slip to back this up) and hopefully following my trip i will have managed a sub 9 min lap of the Nurburgring from Bridge to Gantry. Im aiming for 8:30. But whatever happens there will be video evidence to back my time up.

Talk is cheap im afraid, but give me hard facts and figures as these are what you can measure a cars performance by.

Otherwise is all just words and nothing more....

[Golden bay NZ]

A 9 minute trip around the Nurburgring is not a true test of your cars performance as it is also has a lot to do with driving skills and car handling. I think the quarter mile and the 100 to 160 are better measures.

[Fawbs]

ahhhh leeky you might be just the person i'm looking for as i might be doing the nurburgring, will pm you

[john905]

A 9 minute trip around the Nurburgring is not a true test of your cars performance as it is also has a lot to do with driving skills and car handling. I think the quarter mile and the 100 to 160 are better measures.

so have you done a 1/4 mile with a time slip to prove it?(my guess is no)

[Golden bay NZ]

Not until I get a performance clutch that doesnt slip .

Ive installed a standard cluch when I reco'd my gearbox a year ago

So Im getting my moneys worth out of it first

Thats why I rely mostly on the 20 to 160k time

My times here are more valuable to the average reader

as they are in a car that hasnt been prepared for a drag meet.

You sound more like you are taking personal offence to what Im saying?

Look Im sorry mate that youre so upset at how fast my non turbo'd car is ... get over it!

Your comments arent relevant because if I went to an official meet

I would have a faster time, as I would have ...

1. A Higher Octane Fuel

2. Warm my tyres up and have a rubber surface to take off on

3. Slicker tyres

4. Set my suspension up with firmer rear springs

5. Put in a short throw gear stick

6. Shed 20kg by removing interior panels and probably my parcel tray and passenger seat

(with the idea that I will eventually be losing this amount of weight off the car anyway)

7. Use newer plugs and have a cleaner air filter

8. Install a high performance clutch

I know my times are reasonably accurate as I have been taking them for 2 years

And watched them go up in very small increments.

When I started

My 0 to 60 was 8.6 secs

My 20 - 160 about 18 or 19 secs

[Golden bay NZ]

In response to 'Leekys' ... "Why do I go to the Nurburgring?"

I sincerely hope you do get from sub 9 mins to 8.30 on the bridge to gantry at Nurburgring

Because I can see from bridgetogantry.com that at the moment you are being beaten by a;

Corsa and suzuki swift at 8:14 150 hp

Mazda mx5 1.6L / 8:20 180hp

A Renault sport, Clio and Fiat Coupe

Maybe you should read through my mods again?

I guarantee they will make you beat that 150hp car! ;)

[Golden bay NZ]

This is a question for 'Tarmaniac'.

If they are using forced induction capable of 3 bars on motorbikes..

How did they stop water from getting into the engine when it rains heavily?

Or does this not affect it?

I havent sealed mine as I heard of one young guy who had his intake quite low

and he sucked up a puddle wrecking his engine

[john905]

Not until I get a performance clutch that doesnt slip .

Ive installed a standard cluch when I reco'd my gearbox a year ago

So Im getting my moneys worth out of it first

Thats why I rely mostly on the 20 to 160k time

My times here are more valuable to the average reader

as they are in a car that hasnt been prepared for a drag meet.

You sound more like you are taking personal offence to what Im saying?

Look Im sorry mate that youre so upset at how fast my non turbo'd car is ... get over it!

Your comments arent relevant because if I went to an official meet

I would have a faster time, as I would have ...

1. A Higher Octane Fuel

2. Warm my tyres up and have a rubber surface to take off on

3. Slicker tyres

4. Set my suspension up with firmer rear springs

5. Put in a short throw gear stick

6. Shed 20kg by removing interior panels and probably my parcel tray and passenger seat

(with the idea that I will eventually be losing this amount of weight off the car anyway)

7. Use newer plugs and have a cleaner air filter

8. Install a high performance clutch

I know my times are reasonably accurate as I have been taking them for 2 years

And watched them go up in very small increments.

When I started

My 0 to 60 was 8.6 secs

My 20 - 160 about 18 or 19 secs

im not takin any offense,i dont even care that you are so deluded about your stupid mods and the bhp gain you think you are getting, the best bit of all a year or so ago you got slated about them and we said prove it and in well over a year you havnt. so i doubt you ever will, the real truth of it is you will never as 99% of your bhp gain you have stated is just silly

[Golden bay NZ]

It doesnt matter that you dont believe me

As Tarmaniac says .. the stopwatch never lies

In the last year I have taken 2 secs off my times which kind of does prove it dont you think? Like I said..I can do two runs and have them within 0.1 sec of eachother

I would take these mods off if I didnt feel an improvement and see it in my times. An example is the new muffler I put on last week and an alteration I made to the ram air today (see at end)..neither worked.

And why am I consistently beating 220 and even 300hp cars?

I dont let others limitations stop me. When you understand the science you see that there are a lot of things you can do. What Im showing isnt new..its proven and its out there. But not many know about it...its been 'forgotten' becuase all everyone talks about now is their turbo

My times and speed comparisons with other cars from zerto60.com and torquestats.com both confirm I have added a minimum of 23hp. And these are times by professional drivers on a rubber coated launch pad with warm tyres.

Plus I have the equivalent of another 14hp with weight loss

My car is transformed from when I got it and feels like it has 20 to 30% more power

The intake and exhaust are quieter too

And not just that - My car had peak torque at 6000 rpm, but now the torque kicks in at 4200 rpm and really makes the car launch. Now it has a much wider power band which is actually what I have been wanting all along as I thought my car was a bit slow on pick up in 3rd gear at 90k. This is where I really need some power for safer overtaking.

0 to 60 and ¼ mile times are interesting for comparisons to other vehicles

But I dont really like doing them as it puts a lot of strain on the drivetrain

Torque in 3rd or 4th is what I want

You can cruise along in my car at 180 (on a track) and if you plant your foot it will throw you back in the seat.

On the subject of the ram air..

I decided today to seal the pipes and found an extra intake hole I didnt know was there

I sealed that to create more of a closed induction and I was 1 sec slower on my times

The hole was just to the side of where my ram air hose goes through the guard into the airbox

So I concede that there isnt a lot of 'ramming' going on

Maybe just the 0.18 psi I read in that article, and the hole on the side means that there will be air circulating constantly which would keep it cooler.

It might be more accurate to call it an 'Air Assisted Intake'

So I imagine my system is more like having your pod at the front of your grill and facing into the wind rather than inside your guard. But would that make you go 1 sec faster like mine? And would a pod work better if there was a hole to the side nearer the throttle so that more air passed through the tubing keeping it cooler? One day I will put in a second ram into that hole and see if it improves it or not

[Leeky]

In response to 'Leekys' ... "Why do I go to the Nurburgring?"

I sincerely hope you do get from sub 9 mins to 8.30 on the bridge to gantry at Nurburgring

Because I can see from bridgetogantry.com that at the moment you are being beaten by a;

Corsa and suzuki swift at 8:14 150 hp

Mazda mx5 1.6L / 8:20 180hp

A Renault sport, Clio and Fiat Coupe

Which is a bit of an embarassment to the rest of us Celica owners..

Maybe you should read through my mods again?

I guarantee they will make you beat that 150hp car! ;)

Im sorry but you obviously dont know anything about the nurburgring or racing on a track at all. And no offence but i wouldnt fit any of your mods to my car as i still consider the majority of them as worthless.

sub 9 minutes bridge to gantry is VERY good for any road car. What time do you think you would do in your ss3? An 11 min lap? A 10min lap? I'd bet serious money you would be doing 12min laps - im not saying your not a good driver, but i dont think you could get an SS3 around in less than 11mins unless you had a turbo fitted.

There was a guy i met out there who had a 610bhp Celica GT4 and he managed an 8min 20sec lap. I couldnt break into the 9mins on this trip as the track was too busy, too many accidents to have to slow down for, too much grease on the track and i had to back off as my oil temps got too high.

Thats all very nice that someone managed to get a Suzuki Swift and a fiat coupe around in under 9mins - good for them! But i gaurantee you they werent standard cars - not by a long shot.

A Clio 182 cup is VERY good on track - it will keep with Porsche GT3 Rs's so you gotta give that car respect.

What do you mean by pod? Are you reffering to the cam cover breather hole on my bonnet?

The thing you seem to be missing is that the Nurburgring isnt all about power, its about handling, chassis, aerodynamics and driver skill.

In a straight line i can of course take all those cars easy, but in corners i need to slow down where as a lot of smaller lightweight cars can power straight through. This is why 160bhp Series 1 Lotus Elise's are so quick on track. And my car started out being designed as a rally car, not a touring car. Its also my daily drive, so it has a fully interior and doesnt look like a track car.

There is a german guy who i've seen at the track many times. He has a late 80's VW Golf 1.6. No engine, suspenions or brake mods at all - totally standard. All he has done is remove all the interior and put semi slick tyres on it.

On the track i need to work very very hard to beat him even though i have 3 times the power. The car is too light (much less than 900kgs), corners too quick and he knows how to drive it at its very limit. Others with M3's, Nissan Skylines and Porsches cannot keep with him either.

There was a video of a Bugatti Veyron on the track with a Lotus Elise and he couldnt shake the elise even though there is about 800bhp between them.

You do quote a lot of figures and estimates all the time. But you've gotta understand that you cannot use a calculator or theory on a car. I know what my car can do and what i can do with my car. You need to take it out there and prove its performance. Because all your figures and quotes and "Why am i beating 300bhp cars" is just rubbish im sorry. You are just wrong. There is no "science" as you put it behind your claims, the figures dont add up and if you've beaten people with 300bhp cars it simply means you are a better driver than them as it sure as hell isnt your car my friend.

I can buy an SS3 tomorrow, get a professional tuning company to do 'real' modifications to it like balancing, upping the compression ratio, porting the head etc and still that SS3 will not be as fast as a 300bhp celica gt4. Never in a million years.

Unfortunatly until you have done real modifications i really dont want to know as its just not possible to get as much extra power as what you claim by sticking on a load of rubbish from eBay. This thread has gone on for far too long and we've talked it to death.

Bottom line is the SS3 is a good car but its not a fast car. Its too heavy and doesnt have enough power. If you have made it fast then thats great and good for you but looking at all the things you have done on it i still say its way too heavy and doesnt have enough power. As i've said many times before, unless you can provide proof of its performance its all just talk and nothing more im sorry.

I can tell everyone that i have invented a chemical that turns lead into gold...but unless i prove this everyone is gonna call me a liar. Same as this situation im afraid.

So please excuse me as i will not be taking part in this thread anymore as its starting to annoy me a little now and i wish i hadnt started posting. As it reminds me of a similar conversation i had with someone once who told me their "Ford Escort 1.6 8v petrol was faster than a Nissan Skyline GTR on the track" and then started to talk for 30mins about all the things he had fitted from eBay like fuel line magnets to it to try and prove to me that it was true.

He wasnt fooling anyone but himself...

Im not saying you are a liar, but it comes down to the fact that i dont believe anything you have said - your claims just sound nonsense to anyone who has experience tuning engines.

I have a friend who used to design and build engines for F1 cars for a famous team who no longer races. So he knows about how to get huge power from a non turbo engine. I showed him this thread this evening and everything you wrote and he didnt say anything, he just shook his head at you're modifications list. I expected two or three of your mods to have added at least 2-3bhp to your car but he says he doubts it would have actually made any extra power and instead would simply of made the car feel more responsive. He says at a minimum you would need to advance the timing and increase the valve opening duration to see a proper power increase - both things you have not done.

He says he thinks the only reason your car seems to be getting faster is that you have dropped weight from it and are progressivly getting better at driving it.

So there you have it, an expert in the field who has said that these mods wont do anything. But unlike him i will happily stand corrected once you prove it with video/time slips.

[Golden bay NZ]

It doesnt sound like you have even read my initial thread

My times speak for themselves, esp the 20 to 160 and 100 to 160

You say my car is heavy? I dont think 1172 kg is heavy?

My car already has vvti which does the ignition timing and valve opening duration

every microsecond for maximum power when I have my foot down flat

Did you not know how VVTI really works?

I find this very frustrating when I have shown you all my times but you still dont believe them

Its like you all have a mental block of some sort?

As I said previously, the mods I have done are all proven and none of it is new

But because everyone is into their turbos it has been forgotten about

Your friend did not look properly at my thread, he is just agreeing with you as he is your friend

Because if he did work on those motors he would understand straight away the advantage of the electric water pump and condenser

I would be very surprised if the F1 cars did not have them. Im sure the WRC cars do.

Nor did he truly understand VVTI or he would have known that you cant tune it easily and it will overide any piggyback ecu within 5 weeks (Altezza Club Australia) And that the vvti DOES advance the timing AND increase valve opening duration which will gain the maximum power from all the mods I have done when the accelerator is hard down

Also I have not bought anything off 'E- Bay' It is all from reputable companies like Craig Davies who have sold over 20,000 electric water pumps, many to the racing world (you guys must be so out of touch?) and have been making automotive cooling fans for 40 years before that

Im starting to think you guys are a bit behind up there in technology?

[Leeky]

As i said i dont want to spend any more time on this thread but i needed to say that I am very well aware of how VVTI works. But you obviously dont as otherwise you would know that VVTI alone will not give you the valve duration gains that a set of aftermarket camshafts/gears will give and also Toyota VVTI is designed for Economy/low down torque 1st and not performance. It is not the VVTI itself that gives the Red Top Beams engine its extra power, but more the additional tuning the engine received.

On the 140bhp 1ZZ-FE 1.8 engine you get VVTI and 140bhp. On the 2ZZ-GE 1.8 it is the Lift and all the other head/block work that gives it 190bhp (Hence the L in VVTLI).

1172kgs is still pretty heavy for a car with only 200bhp (You havent got 230bhp or whatever it is you claim so lets just stick with the facts as until you produce a dyno graph there is no proof you have anything more than stock power). The Clip 182cup weighs under 1000kgs and has 182bhp standard and has a 0-60 of 6.5secs. Therefore it is 185.11bhp per ton and your car at 200bhp with 1172kgs is 173.39 per ton. It is also very well setup handling wise from the factory and the SS3 chassis is never going to be competition for it in the corners - so i would advise you dont go racing any Clio Cup's unless you want to loose to a small french car.

I have 248.18bhp per ton and even i wouldnt underestimate a clio cup as even with 4wd i cant corner like the clio - they are an exceptionally quick machine.

Its no mental block. I've seen your times and they mean nothing to me, sorry but i couldnt care less what your testing has resulted in as you make statements like this -

My times and speed comparisons with other cars from zerto60.com and torquestats.com both confirm I have added a minimum of 23hp. And these are times by professional drivers on a rubber coated launch pad with warm tyres.

Thats just not real. Never in a million years have your mods given you 23bhp. This isnt proof, this is just more talking trying to convince yourself and others that you've added an unrealistic amount of power to a car with a load of mods that dont do anything.

Its very simple, get your car on a track with a Clio 182 cup, a Subaru Impreza WRX Sti, a Celica GT4 and a Honda S2000. You WILL be the last person to finish. Your car does not stand a chance on track against these cars. If you've beaten one of them on the road then you were lucky or a better driver. Plus i hope you werent racing on public roads at the time as thats dangerous and illegal. Take it to a track or dont race at all. When i see people racing on public roads i get their numberplate details and report them to the police - i would be careful of people do this to you in your country.

Im not behind with technology. I've recently been to Stuttgart Germany and been personally shown the way the Porsche Variable Vane Geometry Turbo system works on the 911 Turbo by a representative at the Porsche Factory itself!

I've also been to Mercedes and seen how their Foto-Combustion engine works.

Electric water pumps are not new technology, they've been around for years and no.... most rally cars DONT use electric water pumps. Do your reasearch, because as far as i know it is only Ford who use them as most other teams consider them to be too unreliable.

I've just asked my friend whether F1 cars use electric water pumps and he says that he's never seen an F1 car with an electric water pump.

I dont want an electric water pump as a mechanical pump is stronger and safer and you gain hardly any extra power from removing the mechanical pump. Its just not worth it.

I see that you dont know anything about F1 cars. There is no VVTI on an F1 car. They all use pneumatic valves. Look at the website below for information on this.

http://scarbsf1.com/valves.html

This is the new technology which is now on some of the newest road cars - google Fiat's Multiair Valve-Lift System . VVTI is very old fashion technology now and in an ideal world we want to get rid of cams completely.

Direct Injection is the latest technology on Toyota's (Along with their Hybrid Synergy Drive). Direct Injection will give greater performance gains than Toyota's VVTI ever did.

I've been tuning and building engines (4cylinder, 6 cylinder, 8 cylinder, turbo and na) for over 10 years now. When it comes to the 3S I know what mods work, what mods dont work and which mods are a total waste of time - so sorry but thats why i call BS on your mods.

I know the 3S, 1UZ and 2JZ engines inside and out. So im sorry that i take offence to someone with no real knowledge of the 3S-GE engine trying to tell me how the engine works and how to extract power from it.

Anyway im done, thats all i have to say on this subject.

[Golden bay NZ]

Once again you're still believing the world is flat. You havent bothered to go to the sites I mentioned and check the stats.

Economy is a feature of VVTI but it was equally designed for performance. If it was designed for low down torque as you say .. why is its peak torque at 6000rpm?

You said "the SS3 chassis is never going to be competition for it in the corners"

"NZ'er Rod Millen drove the Pikes Peak Toyota Celica in the Unlimited class at the Pikes Peak International Hillclimb to claim two overall victories and set the fastest time ever at the hill with a time of 10:04.06. This record stands to this day."..(17 years!)

The ST202 chassis was used as a base for this in case you didnt know, with the 3SGTE motor and carbon fibre body at 900kg. Beside the ST202 is basically the same as the ST205 chassis, The 205 has stiffer suspension dampening and a slightly different steering geometry but otherwise the same..you've basically just dissed your own car?

And you say "my car doesnt stand a chance against a WRX on a track" Once again, the same ST202/205 chassis continually beat the WRX's in the 1994 WRC (34 races won) And from the races I have watched on tv, there doesnt seem to be hardly any difference between a well set up front wheel drive car and the Evo's and WRX's. Its become common knowledge in NZ that WRX's slide out very suddenly in the front end...God knows enough guys here have killed themselves and split their WRX's in half

From what you have described to me about light cars at the Nurburgring, I think my car would do ok. Even a much slower SS3 than mine will sit on 235k happily with the speed limiter bypassed and the tripmeter needle removed. Its not just lightweight I have been going for, but a 'centring' of the weight (Battery, fog lights, a/c, aerial, Speakers, spare wheel removed etc) and a lowering of the centre of gravity (15mm spacers, 20mm lowering springs)

Also I never said the F1's had vvti.

The water pump is just mechanical 101, they are far more efficient at cooling and dont cavitate at high revs like internal pumps. It also frees up your cambelt that drives it, 4 to 6hp isnt much on an 800hp car but it is on a 200hp car

Stop wasting space on my thread and leave it for people who are actually interested!

[john905]

It doesnt sound like you have even read my initial thread

My times speak for themselves, esp the 20 to 160 and 100 to 160

You say my car is heavy? I dont think 1172 kg is heavy?

My car already has vvti which does the ignition timing and valve opening duration

every microsecond for maximum power when I have my foot down flat

Did you not know how VVTI really works?

I find this very frustrating when I have shown you all my times but you still dont believe them

Its like you all have a mental block of some sort?

As I said previously, the mods I have done are all proven and none of it is new

But because everyone is into their turbos it has been forgotten about

Your friend did not look properly at my thread, he is just agreeing with you as he is your friend

Because if he did work on those motors he would understand straight away the advantage of the electric water pump and condenser

I would be very surprised if the F1 cars did not have them. Im sure the WRC cars do.

Nor did he truly understand VVYI or he would have known that you cant tune it easily and it will overide any piggyback ecu within 5 weeks (Altezza Club Australia) And that the vvti DOES advance the timing AND increase valve opening duration which will gain the maximum power from all the mods I have done when the accelerator is hard down

Also I have not bought anything off 'E- Bay' It is all from reputable companies like Craig Davies who have sold over 20,000 electric water pumps, many to the racing world (you guys must be so out of touch?) and have been making automotive cooling fans for 40 years before that

Im starting to think you guys are a bit behind up there in technology?

but you cant prove your times, you have came on here saying its really quick but your mods list is a complete joke, do you see why we question it? as said its all right saying it does 300 bhp cars, but with no proof (it would be like me saying my car can do a 10sec 1/4 with a standard 3sgte conversion)

also a wrx would be alot faster around the track then your car i know your goin to say but i have seen them beat a wrx, but thats not your car

are we behind with technology? come on are you a complete !Removed!

[Golden bay NZ]

You guys are all tied up in knots..

Relax!

All my mods are working

For two guys who seem to totally deny everything Im saying

You do spend a lot of time reading it?

I dont need to prove my times

It doesnt bother me that you may not believe me

As Im really only competing with myself

I use the same stretch of track, same amount of gas, try for the same air temp.

These forums are like internet dating sites

Its best to be honest, as sooner or later the truth will come out

And we would look like fools

My times are just a reference point for me so I know my car is getting faster, not slower

And for anyone else who has a similar car and wants to improve it

I dont count times where I think Ive clicked the stopwatch a fraction early

Maybe I am 0.2 secs ahead by timing my own take off

But If I am, I think I would make that up at a ¼ mile meet

Esp. if I didnt sit there for 2 secs spinning my wheels!

The solutions simple..if you dont like it ..dont read it!

PS - Interesting to note that I havent had any flak from this topic in the Australian forum. Probably because there are a lot more of my model celica over there and they know what they can do. The electric water pumps are also common over there as is the Racing Parts supplier that sells the condensers

[john905]

Your right on that i do spend to much time reading this, so lets agree to dis agree on this as we are getting no where fast

[Golden bay NZ]

I bet you and 'Leeky' have both printed out my list and are secretly spending time in your garage considering if you should do them .. :D

[john905]

I bet you and 'Leeky' have both printed out my list and are secretly spending time in your garage considering if you should do them .. :D

lol sorry not a chance mate, any way thats me done on the topic,all the best with your mods and your power gains you have got lol

[Golden bay NZ]

I'll let you know in a year or so. There is a Drag club near here that has regular meets.

But I cant see any point in going until my cars doing a slightly better time

Plus I dont want to make an ***** of myself by burning out my standard clutch

In front of a large crowd - those guys are pretty serious

I want to get a better clutch, stiffer rear shocks and engine mount

Maybe an alloy tank. I should probably replace my fuel pump with a new filter

New cams would be good ..they replace them every 50,000k in race cars

The list goes on and on ..

Id also like to go to England, which Ive been planning for 3 years but I keep spending too much on my car

What are your times?

[john905]

My best time is 13.3 @110mph, on the dyno it made 242 bhp with 264 torque and with nos it made 331 bhp with 416 torque, thats an st 185 engine with air filter 3 inch exhaust and de cat 1 bar boost and a front mount intercooler with an uprated fuel pump

[Golden bay NZ]

Thats fast, tho I would have thought you would be a fraction faster with that light car?

But it prob. is very fast for a front wheel drive

Do you use the nitrous on the ¼ mile or is that too risky?

[john905]

Thats fast, tho I would have thought you would be a fraction faster with that light car?

But it prob. is very fast for a front wheel drive

Do you use the nitrous on the ¼ mile or is that too risky?

yeah nos is used, got traction probs at the moment wont 12 sec bye end of the year

[Golden bay NZ]

I saw this site, you may already know it...

http://www.se-r.net/car_info/fwd_launch_tips.html

Also in what gear do you start to use the Nos?

[Fawbs]

John you need to make that car 4wd or put the engine in the back like lee was doing, do it do it do it