Fuel Economy/egr Valve

[T180 NI]

Hi there, I used to be on here as T180 BT20 but cant find my original user name blah blah....Anyway here is the problem. My EGR valve was replaced under warranty recently along with a new "brain" but I have had to clean it out 3 times in last 2,000 miles. It is always very sooted up and here is the worrying thing, MPG is currently around 27mpg urban but I am really losing faith in this car. I am using high quality diesel but the last limp mode thing really did my head in!

The soot in the valve is also accompanied by oily sludge so maybe I have another problem going on here?

It could go to the dealer yes but I know they will charge a packet and possibly not resolve the issue properly.

2006 and 40,000 miles

Many thanks

Ron

[anchorman]

Welcome back to the club!

There used to be some significant oil consumption issues. If they consumed more than 1 litre per 1000 miles they would rebuild the engine with modified pistons etc but if they don't consume that much but still consume quite a lot it can add to your problems. Are you using good quality oil?

If all else fails, get some stainless steel gaskets made with no hole and blank it off (each end of the feed pipe). It will still sail through MOT and improve fuel consumption slightly.

[T180 NI]

Welcome back to the club!

There used to be some significant oil consumption issues. If they consumed more than 1 litre per 1000 miles they would rebuild the engine with modified pistons etc but if they don't consume that much but still consume quite a lot it can add to your problems. Are you using good quality oil?

If all else fails, get some stainless steel gaskets made with no hole and blank it off (each end of the feed pipe). It will still sail through MOT and improve fuel consumption slightly.

No oil issues Anchorman just really poor fuel economy plus the EGR Valve needing cleaned out every 500 miles! Could it be an overfuelling issue??

Cheers

Ron

[local hero]

Welcome back to the club!

There used to be some significant oil consumption issues. If they consumed more than 1 litre per 1000 miles they would rebuild the engine with modified pistons etc but if they don't consume that much but still consume quite a lot it can add to your problems. Are you using good quality oil?

If all else fails, get some stainless steel gaskets made with no hole and blank it off (each end of the feed pipe). It will still sail through MOT and improve fuel consumption slightly.

No oil issues Anchorman just really poor fuel economy plus the EGR Valve needing cleaned out every 500 miles! Could it be an overfuelling issue??

Cheers

Ron

Well I am not even going to try + compete with Anch's reply + vastly superior knowledge, however you do say it had a new EGR + a new brain just wondering if the brain ECU could be set up wrong as it appears to have got worse since this was done, remember there was an ECU update a couple of years ago, usually done at service well quite a few of us thought our mpg suffered after that, so maybe it needs checking.. This EGR thing really bugs me, I know a lot of you will find this really boring but my ford engined cab was having the egr cleaned out at 70,000mls my current Chrysler engined cab has never had it done (currently 190,000) + just as a throw away its just had its first clutch + frnt discs at 185,000mls..Come on TOYOTA whats going on here Stew

[T180 NI]

Welcome back to the club!

There used to be some significant oil consumption issues. If they consumed more than 1 litre per 1000 miles they would rebuild the engine with modified pistons etc but if they don't consume that much but still consume quite a lot it can add to your problems. Are you using good quality oil?

If all else fails, get some stainless steel gaskets made with no hole and blank it off (each end of the feed pipe). It will still sail through MOT and improve fuel consumption slightly.

No oil issues Anchorman just really poor fuel economy plus the EGR Valve needing cleaned out every 500 miles! Could it be an overfuelling issue??

Cheers

Ron

Well I am not even going to try + compete with Anch's reply + vastly superior knowledge, however you do say it had a new EGR + a new brain just wondering if the brain ECU could be set up wrong as it appears to have got worse since this was done, remember there was an ECU update a couple of years ago, usually done at service well quite a few of us thought our mpg suffered after that, so maybe it needs checking.. This EGR thing really bugs me, I know a lot of you will find this really boring but my ford engined cab was having the egr cleaned out at 70,000mls my current Chrysler engined cab has never had it done (currently 190,000) + just as a throw away its just had its first clutch + frnt discs at 185,000mls..Come on TOYOTA whats going on here Stew

Your right Local, the ECU and EGR were changed at the same time (about 9 months ago) and it has definitely got a lot worse. I also feel the car is overfuelling as there is a lag when I throttle it. Now I feel wary of going long distances without carrying a socket set and rag with me!

Thanks

Ron

[anchorman]

I doubt very much if it is overfuelling otherwise you would be getting lambda codes thrown up.

Do you know who will make you a couple of blanks? You will be surprised at the result.

[T180 NI]

I doubt very much if it is overfuelling otherwise you would be getting lambda codes thrown up.

Do you know who will make you a couple of blanks? You will be surprised at the result.

Blank off at the cyl head and the manifold? Leave the EGR connected? Oil consumption is not an issue by the way. 27mpg urban is crap and even if I reset it on motorway it only goes to 30.

Thanks Anchorman

Ron

[wardude]

My t180 (06) aint used a drop of oil in 10k miles. Just checked it again tonight and its still on the full mark. When I clean the egr valve it soon soots up again mind. 500 miles or so and its as black and greasy at it was before the clean

[local hero]

I doubt very much if it is overfuelling otherwise you would be getting lambda codes thrown up.

Do you know who will make you a couple of blanks? You will be surprised at the result.

BUT WHY? WHY? are we blanking them off? If we didn,t need an EGR for some reason Toyota wouldn't have fitted one, There is a fault here, and its a bit like curing an in growing toe nail by cutting your leg off. Are other toyotas with the same engines experiencing these problems? Toyota need to recognise this fault + cure it having to clean your EGR out every 500 mls is not a minor irritation its absolute Flipping lunacy.. :ffs: Stew

[T180 NI]

I doubt very much if it is overfuelling otherwise you would be getting lambda codes thrown up.

Do you know who will make you a couple of blanks? You will be surprised at the result.

BUT WHY? WHY? are we blanking them off? If we didn,t need an EGR for some reason Toyota wouldn't have fitted one, There is a fault here, and its a bit like curing an in growing toe nail by cutting your leg off. Are other toyotas with the same engines experiencing these problems? Toyota need to recognise this fault + cure it having to clean your EGR out every 500 mls is not a minor irritation its absolute Flipping lunacy.. :ffs: Stew

Your so right Stew, we are masking a problem not fixing it but I know if I take it to the dealer I will get flim-flammed. There is something not right here and I would like to solve the problem. The EGR is a real issue and if I dont get it sorted the Rav will go, a good car apart from this stupid fault.

Cheers!

Ron

[anchorman]

You have to put things into perspective my learned friends.

Of course the EGR is put there for a reason and for the most part they sit and do their job uneventfully. However, the roll of the EGR as far as the emissions goes makes it a necessary item for the vehicle to meet tight Euro IV requirements but is by no means necessary for the MOT. As long as it is behaving without trouble as most do then leave it alone but this one is different because you've posed the question about what you can do to avoid certain high costs.

So let just consider the situation. Firstly - Ron, your T180 doing 27mpg is not unusual by any means, there are several owners that grumble about T180 fuel consumption especially on the urban cycle. On a trip they do rather better but you did want 180hp and it does come with the D-CAT system which offsets the higher emmissions from the higher power but can present it's own problems on vehicles of this era.

Next. If you are getting soot in the EGR - join the club, we all are. This valve sits in the exhaust pipe as its name suggests. Go round the back and put your finger in the exhaust and feel inside with your finger. It will be black and that is AFTER it has been through a D-CAT particulate filter. The EGR has it rough because it sits up front before there has been any pre-cleaning and if it didn't get black at 500 miles there would be something wrong.

Nowthen, lets just think about the design of this thing. Early EGR systems were relatively crude and used vacuum for operation like on older 4.2s, Transits, taxis etc. As time goes on and we move to Euro V (I can remember in the mid nineties reading articles in Transport Engineer that suggested Euro III was pipe dream unless LPG was used for fuel and now look - we are up to Euro V on plain old diesel) these standards call for a high level of control so the EGR valve is now a precise instrument which the engine ECU can operate very finely. The trouble is that the electronic side is all well and good but the plunger that does the metering is sitting in a hell hole on an early 2.2 diesel. They were prone to clogging with supermarket diesel alone and if you throw a bit of engine oil into the mix you have a recipe for disaster.

OK Ron. In your explanation you are holding this valve responsible for your poor fuel consumption although it is unclear to me whether or not it is a direct problem and putting the fault light on. You have also said that you are confident that taking it to a dealer will cost you mega £££ to put right. You may well be right in the latter because if you complain about the oily residue the dealer will have the pistons out before you can say barclaycard. BUT - the biggest influence that valve is having on this issue is probably the fuel consumption. Alone it cannot be responsible for an MOT failure and if it will never stop getting sooty as long as it is working AND if it has an oily residue (don't get confused with a smooth slippy feel that you get with graphite powder) the only way you can cure that is to fit the later standard pistons and rings and that job goes with loads of other mods like head gaskets and various seals that would all be included in the re-build. My worry is that your car will still do 27mpg and your EGR will still get sooty and then you will have a major issue with a car that is working a bit more normally than it was before you re-mortgaged on it.

I can assure you that it plays a small enough roll in proceedings to blank it off and if you find it makes not much difference then reinstate it. I can also assure you it will not adversely affect fuel consumption and it will definitely stop you getting any 0400 fault codes (if that is still the case).

Stewpot. In answer to your questions.

As discussed the RAV 4.3 EGR is leagues ahead of earlier designs in terms of the amount of control it can offer. It is an accurate metering device but while the theory is good, in practice there are problems.

The early RAVs suffered quite heavy oil consumption but this was cured in production by May 2007 with new pistons and rings along with various other mods. As the weakness in design became apparent, all early RAVs had this ECU flash that eased the metering and probably the propensity for the engine to pass vapours (I don't fully know the details because we are never privvy to them). The early EGR valve was re-worked to cope better with this cocktail of supermarket weasel pee and engine oil vapour that causes the valve to stick - NOT fill with soot which is normal. Now we have 2 mods that go towards fixing the effect but not the cause. Its an economy of scale. Do you try to reduce it or can you imagine what the cost would be of rebuilding 1000s of engines to achieve a minor effect?

The photos I put a link to somewhere on cleaning the valve lately was our colleague Ricks out of the Auris forum so yes it applies to all pre-May 2007 2.2 engines and possibly a few afterwards depending on the type of fuel they are using and the type of duty - stop start short journey's being the worst I imagine.

A major manufacturer goes through a normal process of evolution to minimise cost and improve reliability or vice-versa. We are not guinea pigs as such we are the development team - a necessary process I'm afraid. The engine in my RAV is quite different to the engine in yours and I only coughed up another 9k because of my understanding of such things. There was otherwise no good reason to swap a 3.5 year old motor with 25k on it. The cylinder block is different along with all the pistons, sealing and other bits and bobs and the good old EGR is radically different being a gate valve instead of a plunger. Things do move on but at a cost. Who knows what the 4.4 will bring but if its as good a step has this one has been we're in for a treat.

[Cyker]

I doubt very much if it is overfuelling otherwise you would be getting lambda codes thrown up.

Do you know who will make you a couple of blanks? You will be surprised at the result.

BUT WHY? WHY? are we blanking them off? If we didn,t need an EGR for some reason Toyota wouldn't have fitted one, There is a fault here, and its a bit like curing an in growing toe nail by cutting your leg off. Are other toyotas with the same engines experiencing these problems? Toyota need to recognise this fault + cure it having to clean your EGR out every 500 mls is not a minor irritation its absolute Flipping lunacy.. :ffs: Stew

Don't worry; The EGR has exactly one purpose: Reduce Nitrogen Oxide (NOx) emissions.

It does this by feeding exhaust gas back into the cylinders which slows down the combustion and stops it burning as hot (High heat is what causes NOx; Petrols burn much cooler which is why they have almost no NOx compared to diesels). It's a bit like why they used to stick lead in petrol, but for a different reason.

The reason many people (Including myself) think it is stupid is because it makes everything else worse: Sulphur, carbon particulates, CO2 and CO emissions all go up and mpg goes down.

It is also the reason many people here have recommended a long motorway blast every now and then if you tend to drive in the city all the time as this can help mitigate (But alas not cure) the problem of it getting crudded up.

Removing it just means you run the risk of failing an emissions test (I actually thought NOx was part of the test for diesels, but anch seems to say otherwise...?)

Personally, I'm still hoping improved catalysts will make it a thing of the past ;)

[anchorman]

I know somebody that runs one without problems and was never picked up on the MOT.

[T180 NI]

Yes Anchorman I raised the issue because this EGR soot problem causes the multiple warning light problem and the car goes into "limp mode". This has happened on a motorway twice and also sitting in heavy traffic. The car cannot pull away and I end up with a tailback behind me, last time I had passengers on board and the first comment was, The car Behind is a Toyota. There is obviously something not right here. Other 2.2 diesels pull pver 45 mpg urban! Also if the valve can be blanked off and Increase fuel economy why doesnt everyone do it? None of this makes any logical sense to me. I love driving the Rav but right now all I think about is when all the warning lights will appear and I'll be a slow moving traffic jam again.

This is a design fault and it doesnt harbour well for existing owners who get this problem and have to take it to a dealer. At least I can remove it and clean it at no cost. If it was heavy oil consumption causing it I would have noticed so that is ruled out.

I think this is a serious issue which doesnt help the tarnished reputation of Toyota. Also I was getting a much higher urban mpg rating until this last run of VSC alarms.

Blanking off the valve I might try but why are 2 blanking plates needed? Wouldnt one suffice? If a valve entry is blocked off closing it's outlet would make no difference.

Ron

[local hero]

I know somebody that runs one without problems and was never picked up on the MOT.

I thank both of you Anchs + Cyker for your excellent replies + for me to even try to compete with your obvious technical knowledge would be very foolish of me, however let me make myself clear, I hate taxis, i don't want to read about them write about them or even think about them, but it is my lot to drive one 70+ hrs a week 49 wks of the year, now these are not old fashioned engines my current one has a Chrysler voyager engine, It chugs around Manchester city centre barely getting above 40 It has 2 govt MOT tests including emissions to euro IV std every year + will shortly be upgraded to Euro V std. now when we take them for test we all (1032 of us) sit outside the test centre + rev the B****X off them for 10 mins in order to blow the cr*p out of the exhaust (we are advised to do this) but as previously stated, on this particular vehicle the EGR has Never been cleaned or replaced in 190,000mls of mostly city driving. I personally have had no probs whatsoever with my Rav, but for those that have, If these EGRs needed cleaning every so often they would be done as part of the service schedule, but they are not, so why are we having to do it ourselves? because something whether its the EGR the ECU or something else is not operating as Toyota intended it should be and IMO that constitutes a fault, which needs rectifying by MR T..going for a lie down in a dark room now :help2: Stew

[MarsKy]

Hi there, I used to be on here as T180 BT20 but cant find my original user name blah blah....Anyway here is the problem. My EGR valve was replaced under warranty recently along with a new "brain" but I have had to clean it out 3 times in last 2,000 miles. It is always very sooted up and here is the worrying thing, MPG is currently around 27mpg urban but I am really losing faith in this car. I am using high quality diesel but the last limp mode thing really did my head in!

The soot in the valve is also accompanied by oily sludge so maybe I have another problem going on here?

It could go to the dealer yes but I know they will charge a packet and possibly not resolve the issue properly.

2006 and 40,000 miles

Many thanks

Ron

Does the T180 come with DPF - can't find a definitive answer, but if it does, see this: DPF, Limp Mode and Low MPG

[T180 NI]

Hi there, I used to be on here as T180 BT20 but cant find my original user name blah blah....Anyway here is the problem. My EGR valve was replaced under warranty recently along with a new "brain" but I have had to clean it out 3 times in last 2,000 miles. It is always very sooted up and here is the worrying thing, MPG is currently around 27mpg urban but I am really losing faith in this car. I am using high quality diesel but the last limp mode thing really did my head in!

The soot in the valve is also accompanied by oily sludge so maybe I have another problem going on here?

It could go to the dealer yes but I know they will charge a packet and possibly not resolve the issue properly.

2006 and 40,000 miles

Many thanks

Ron

Does the T180 come with DPF - can't find a definitive answer, but if it does, see this: DPF, Limp Mode and Low MPG

The T180 seems a very inefficient engine unless driven on motorways and also seems to have a problem with sooting up around town. If you have a new re-mapped chip to solve this problem then if it works and is proven on the T180 you might have a buyer here!

Ron

[anchorman]

Okey Dokey, now we're getting somewhere. It goes into limp mode. We could chew the fat for ever more about whether or not it is a good design but it clearly isn't as they have changed it all together - see section 3 here;

Intake and exhaust.pdf

Your options are;

Blank it off - yes one gasket would do.

Refurb the whole engine and D-CAT - might as well buy a new car.

Contact TGB. They were honouring warranty up to 5 years or 100k but seem to be doing this on a very controlled "on individual merit" basis now. You could try a well worded letter to TGB explaining what has been done and how it leaves you dangerously stranded at times. I can tell you that expressing your feelings about their reputation and quality is probably (read that as definitely) not a good idea. The info that Marsky has provided may well be valid in that the problem could have spread elswhere and DPFs are sometimes changed under extended warranty as well. Be diplomatic in your request for help.

KEEP IN MIND - there are lots of reasons the engine will limp. Are you sure it does it with a 0400 fault code? Even then it could be elswhere that the code is being provoked.

As I said before, this problem is the price of chipping this engine to 180bhp. Everyone is keen to have the thrill but the price comes in emissions and was addressed by using the D-CAT system. There is some spin in showing it off in badges and sales bumf but it is a necessary thing in its entirity. The EGR is only a little part of it.

I would have loved the auto box but the D-CAT stopped me buying it even though (for anyone who has got one) it may well now be utterly reliable. This is another example where fiddling with the spec (coupling it to an auto) has sent the emissions through the roof.

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[T180 NI]

Okey Dokey, now we're getting somewhere. It goes into limp mode. We could chew the fat for ever more about whether or not it is a good design but it clearly isn't as they have changed it all together - see section 3 here;

Intake and exhaust.pdf

Your options are;

Blank it off - yes one gasket would do.

Refurb the whole engine and D-CAT - might as well buy a new car.

Contact TGB. They were honouring warranty up to 5 years or 100k but seem to be doing this on a very controlled "on individual merit" basis now. You could try a well worded letter to TGB explaining what has been done and how it leaves you dangerously stranded at times. I can tell you that expressing your feelings about their reputation and quality is probably (read that as definitely) not a good idea. The info that Marsky has provided may well be valid in that the problem could have spread elswhere and DPFs are sometimes changed under extended warranty as well. Be diplomatic in your request for help.

KEEP IN MIND - there are lots of reasons the engine will limp. Are you sure it does it with a 0400 fault code? Even then it could be elswhere that the code is being provoked.

As I said before, this problem is the price of chipping this engine to 180bhp. Everyone is keen to have the thrill but the price comes in emissions and was addressed by using the D-CAT system. There is some spin in showing it off in badges and sales bumf but it is a necessary thing in its entirity. The EGR is only a little part of it.

Hi Anchorman,

I dont have a code reader but basically all the warnings about check engine etc come on and the car shudders into limp mode, last time it happened it would not get out of it until ten miles later I got the car home and stripped out the valve. I do feel the the fuel consumption has increased dramatically and even resetting the mpg counter whilst doing 70 in 6th on a motorway doesnt get it into the 30's.

Personally I think there is another issue with the car making it run rich perhaps and so causing the high sooting of the valve.

I'll go on ebay and get a code reader....

I'm reluctant to re-chip the car as it had a new ECU and EGR fitted less than a year ago under warranty (even though the car is over 3 years old). Once you go into the ECU the dealer will know I've done so and may get a bit uppity.

If you can think of anything I should check I will do so, the car is not as sharp as it was makes me think it might be a fuel pressure issue.

Cheers

Ron

[MarsKy]

Software mods would only mask hardware faults. You should try and get the hardware faults diagnosed first.

My 3 year old T180 engine is running very sweet just now at 20k miles (touch wood). BP Ultimate and good blasts down the motorways I hope are getting things up to temperature and keeping things clean (I even go out of my way to do a 25 mile run on the motorway to ASDA in Cumbernauld, even though a new ASDA was built 2 miles up the road from me ). It'll be interesting to see how faults mount up for T180 owners over the next 24 months, now that they're getting to that "awkward age".

[Cyker]

... when we take them for test we all (1032 of us) sit outside the test centre + rev the B****X off them for 10 mins in order to blow the cr*p out of the exhaust...

Oh man, that's given me such a ridiculous mental image of a load of taxi drivers hanging around in car parks revving their engines like my local contingent of boy racers

[igormus]

Hi there, I used to be on here as T180 BT20 but cant find my original user name blah blah....Anyway here is the problem. My EGR valve was replaced under warranty recently along with a new "brain" but I have had to clean it out 3 times in last 2,000 miles. It is always very sooted up and here is the worrying thing, MPG is currently around 27mpg urban but I am really losing faith in this car. I am using high quality diesel but the last limp mode thing really did my head in!

The soot in the valve is also accompanied by oily sludge so maybe I have another problem going on here?

It could go to the dealer yes but I know they will charge a packet and possibly not resolve the issue properly.

2006 and 40,000 miles

Many thanks

Ron

hello RON

I do not drive a diesel powered RAV and nothing to compare with but the diesl theory has not been changed yet :).

You try to cure the result but not the reason, i presume having read thru your post. You have not given any info whether or not you tested four injectors, so far. All the soot is result of bad combustion process giving you a lots of carbon. As for my opinion - the first you should inspect all injectors to see what to do after.

Cheers/Igor