Waiting At Roundabouts & Junctions

[Terry953]

Referring to recent posts as to the recommended procedure regarding waiting at roundabouts and junctions in our beloved Auris HSDs and Priuses.

IMHO :--

The correct and safe procedure for waiting at roundabouts and road junctions to proceed is as follows:---

1. Hand brake ON

1a. If in a non-automatic vehicle, the gearbox should be placed in neutral and the clutch

disengaged. The footbrake inactive.

1b. If in an automatic vehicle. the gearbox should be left in D [Drive], The footbrake

inactive.

[With Prius/Auris HSD vehicles whether to select N in long delays seems to be not

recommended as no Battery charging takes place.]

There is NO good reason for stopping and waiting the vehicle with the footbrake only, and if in gear with the clutch disengaged in a non-automatic vehicle the adverse repercussions will be accentuated. In fact there are serious safety reasons why this should NOT be done.

Consider these implications :--

Your stationary vehicle gets a ram from the back.

The most commonly result of injury to the occupants is the 'Whiplash' injury to the neck.

This is because of the inertia effect on the body - car moves forward - body / head doesn't move as fast.

Result head snapped backwards sustaining damage to the neck, prevented in the latest vehicles with head restraints, ect, ect.

But there are also other parts of the body that are effected by this body inertia if the vehicle doesn't have the hand brake applied, these being :---

1. The legs and feet that are pressing on the brake pedal [to restrain the vehicle.]

2. The legs and feet that are holding the clutch disengaged whilst a gear is engaged [ready for a boy racer getaway].

Result, both legs are also snapped back or OFF their controls -

Footbrake comes Off

Clutch pedal is released.

Both these actions allows the vehicle to move forwards unrestricted either into to the traffic stream or into the vehicle in front.

Ignoring the extremely annoying situation where you have to endure the glaring brake lights of the Neanderthals that sit there holding their vehicles on the foot brake, I invite anyone to justify their actions for doing this.

Can I also appeal for comments on the above from IAM members, Licenced driving instructors and Professional driving examiners?

Cheers TerryB

[timberwolf]

Hello Terry Wilson - Independent Legal Consultant and Practising Solicitor Chester, United Kingdom?

[r3g]

I am an IAM member and Auris HSD driver.

I agree mostly with what you say, though if you are waiting to pull onto a roundabout or you are at a junction waiting to pull out, then your vehicle should always be in gear. It is preferable to have the handbrake applied instead of holding it with the foot brake. This way when you see an opportunity to pull out, you are only having to perform a minimal set of operations in order to move forward into the flow of traffic. If your vehicle was out of gear at the time you want to pull out, you run a much higher risk of causing an accident due to the number of things you are trying to do at the same time in order to allow you to pull out.

Personally, I find that my Auris HSD does not pull as much against the handbrake when waiting with it in "Drive" as most automatics do. Therefore I always pull up to the junction and apply the handbrake, leaving it in gear, then lift off the footbrake. My foot can then be held ready over the accelerator with my hand on the handbrake so that I am ready for an immediate pull off into traffic.

If the roundabout or junction that I am waiting at is particularly busy or large which may require a faster pull off than usual, I select the Power mode temporarily until I have cleared the junction and then I switch back to Eco-mode.

Regards,

Richard

[Cord77]

ok I'll bite. I always find it interesting seeing how other people do things different (to me) while they drive, more power to them. I found it fascinating watching the video of heel and toe gear changing recently. However I found your reasons to leave an automatic car in drive with only the handbrake holding the car in place a daft idea (IMHO as you say).

I've driven a CVT Jazz for 7 years, and will soon take possesion of my new Auris HSD, and I can tell you the only times I will be using the handbrake is when I park the car, and maybe waiting at a train crossing if I'm just catching the start of the queues. I'm not interested in making my life harder (thats why I bought an automatic car), and I'll be using the foot brake initiated hill start feature whenever its useful.

There are a lot more annoying things on the road than peoples brake lights, try getting people to indicate at roundabouts first, thats my real bugbear. As for saving my legs in the event someone rear-ends me, I'll take my chances, I don't smoke or drink so I can live with my relaxed driving style at the risk of my legs somehow catapaulting back in some way thats different to them being 10cm closer to the floor to start with.

Being cut-up, tailgated, seeing someone swerve around lanes to get a few cars in front during motorway driving, putting make-up on while driving, those are all things that I think really get on peoples nerves, and can put other drivers at risk. Brake lights? Come on, surely you have to be pretty jaded to call people Neanderthals over that.

Manual cars? Maybe there is something to be said for your idea, but I'd leave the automatics out, they are designed to be run on 2 pedals while driving.

[cootuk]

I would have thought most Prius drivers would use the park button rather than handbrake.

I also would think the most likely time to be hit from behind at a roundabout would be when you start to pullbout but then decide not to go, and the car behind doesn't realise you've stopprd as they're looking at the roundabout traffic rather than you.

[cootuk]

I would have thought most Prius drivers would use the park button rather than handbrake.

I also would think the most likely time to be hit from behind at a roundabout would be when you start to pullbout but then decide not to go, and the car behind doesn't realise you've stopprd as they're looking at the roundabout traffic rather than you.

[ian rooke]

Hi Having been rear ended when waiting at a junction which wrote off my 6 week old Prius and the other car, I dread to think how much more damage would have been done to me, the car, and the other driver and car if my parking brake had been on (we both walked away with no injures) I was taught that if you were the first 3 in the queue keep the car in gear and be ready to pull away over third in queue put car in neutral and apply handbrake.

[Jan&tone]

I would have thought most Prius drivers would use the park button rather than handbrake.

I also would think the most likely time to be hit from behind at a roundabout would be when you start to pullbout but then decide not to go, and the car behind doesn't realise you've stopprd as they're looking at the roundabout traffic rather than you.

At last! With all the above answers this is the only one that is correct for a Prius or Auris.

The same goes for traffic lights.

If you are going to be stopped for more than 30 seconds you put the vehicle in P.

at roundabouts however the situation is different. as you approach the roundabout you are working out whether you are going to have to stop or whether you can filter in - if the latter then the problem doesn't arise. If you have to stop however, the chances are very high (it's a roundabout) that you will be moving extremely shortly after stopping, therefore there will be little time to use either the PARKING brake or P !

You will note PARKING. The foot operated parking brake on those vehicles fitted with such (and that's not just Toyota's) is just that. It is not a substitute for the handbrake.

The above is just my humble opinion, and how I train candidates for the IAM test (all of whom have passed first time). It will no doubt be criticized by others, but that is how I will continue to drive and suggest my candidates do the same.

[ian rooke]

Hi just a thought as park locks the gearbox would the gearbox be damaged in a rearender.

[Bike Nut]

Great answer cord77, there are a lot of other situations on the road which need to be addressed before I start to worry about brake lights.

[Chris Dance]

I never worry about the brake lights being on when I am waiting at junctions traffic lights etc. I usually leave the car in drive, foot brake on. If it is a traffic jam and I am stuck for ages I will use P and put the foot operated "hand brake" on.

I agree with Cord77 about the use of indicators, lots of folk in our town have forgot they have indicators. I try and leave a decent braking distance from the car in front especially on motorways, there is always some idiot cuts into the space causing me to brake sharply. One of my biggest hates is people on mobile phones whilst driving, In our area I see them every day. Earlier this year we went on a long coach trip, mostly on motorways, from the coach I saw numerous lorry drivers on the phone.

I will be interested to hear how Grumpie Cabbie operates his Prius taxi. I bet he has some pet hates about other drivers.

[Seamaster73]

I am also IAM-qualified, and have read nothing that suggests the Prius should be driven any differently to a conventional automatic.

If I do have one observation, it's to point out the thoughtlessness of holding an automatic on the footbrake for a long period, especially at night, unless one's aim is to burn out the retinas of the motorist behind with one's brake lights. As they teach learner drivers, "If a pause becomes a wait, apply the handbrake".

[Jan&tone]

I never worry about the brake lights being on when I am waiting at junctions traffic lights etc. I usually leave the car in drive, foot brake on. If it is a traffic jam and I am stuck for ages I will use P and put the foot operated "hand brake" on.

I agree with Cord77 about the use of indicators, lots of folk in our town have forgot they have indicators. I try and leave a decent braking distance from the car in front especially on motorways, there is always some idiot cuts into the space causing me to brake sharply. One of my biggest hates is people on mobile phones whilst driving, In our area I see them every day. Earlier this year we went on a long coach trip, mostly on motorways, from the coach I saw numerous lorry drivers on the phone.

I will be interested to hear how Grumpie Cabbie operates his Prius taxi. I bet he has some pet hates about other drivers.

Lol, I want a loudspeaker on my car so I can tell the guy, or woman, that cuts in "that space was for my safety, not your convenience!"

[timberwolf]

Put the car in Park, release the brake pedal, car rocks forward in Park, driver behind sees brake lights go out and the movement of you going forward, they drive into the back of you because they set off (impatient due to waiting so long) and then can't stop again in time.

Hopefully, it's a low speed collision, but some impatient drivers have shoved lighter cars out into the junction or roundabout. Such an event happened to colleague of mine on the M4 roundabout at Heathrow, I still find it hard to believe that a Mercedes did it from a standing start and managed to push their car out into the roundabout, but that was what supposedly happened.

[Jan&tone]

Put the car in Park, release the brake pedal, car rocks forward in Park, driver behind sees brake lights go out and the movement of you going forward, they drive into the back of you because they set off (impatient due to waiting so long) and then can't stop again in time.

Hopefully, it's a low speed collision, but some impatient drivers have shoved lighter cars out into the junction or roundabout. Such an event happened to colleague of mine on the M4 roundabout at Heathrow, I still find it hard to believe that a Mercedes did it from a standing start and managed to push their car out into the roundabout, but that was what supposedly happened.

No accounting for idiots is there!!

[dwilson]

Put the car in Park, release the brake pedal, car rocks forward in Park, driver behind sees brake lights go out and the movement of you going forward, they drive into the back of you because they set off (impatient due to waiting so long) and then can't stop again in time.

Hopefully, it's a low speed collision, but some impatient drivers have shoved lighter cars out into the junction or roundabout. Such an event happened to colleague of mine on the M4 roundabout at Heathrow, I still find it hard to believe that a Mercedes did it from a standing start and managed to push their car out into the roundabout, but that was what supposedly happened.

No accounting for idiots is there!!

Idiots indeed.

Regarding the Park switch on the Prius - I am reluctant to use this apart from when parking in case I put it on slightly too soon and damage the transmission - perhaps I should use it more though and just be careful (always a good idea I know). Or have Toyota safeguarded the use of the Park button so it can not be used if damage os likely to occur - in which case I am worrying needlessly. I was advised to be wary in a conventional automatic of engaging Park unless completely stationary.

[Cord77]

There seems to be a theme that would indicate its actually a good idea to have your brake lights on to make sure the person behind you knows you're not going anywhere. Although stupid people who don't look in front of them at roundabouts will always be stupid I guess.

[kithmo]

I would think that sitting with your brake lights on, you would have less chance of being hit from behind by an inattentive driver because you would be more visible. Whilst sitting waiting at the back end of traffic or alone at a juction, I have, on the odd occasion in the past, actually pumped my brake pedal to flash my brake lights when seeing a vehicle approaching rapidly behind me.

I do use the parking brake when stood in traffic for more than 30 seconds, other than that it's the footbrake for me.

[Sagitar]

There seems to be a theme that would indicate its actually a good idea to have your brake lights on to make sure the person behind you knows you're not going anywhere. Although stupid people who don't look in front of them at roundabouts will always be stupid I guess.

I think part of the problem on busy roundabouts is the need to anticipate a gap in the traffic coming from the right. A bloke hit my boot at a roundabout at Perry Bar. He said he had been looking to the right for a gap in the traffic and started to move in anticipation. Sadly, he forgot that my car was waiting in front of him . . . . .

[johalareewi]

Regarding the Park switch on the Prius - I am reluctant to use this apart from when parking in case I put it on slightly too soon and damage the transmission - perhaps I should use it more though and just be careful (always a good idea I know). Or have Toyota safeguarded the use of the Park button so it can not be used if damage os likely to occur - in which case I am worrying needlessly.

The Prius will not damage itself if you hit the P button while moving.

If you are stationary or moving very slowly (up to about 3mph), the P button will engage PARK.

If you press the P button while moving normally, the Prius will go into N (neutral).

So P for park when stationary, P for PANIC if moving!

You are worrying needlessly.

You will also find that you can't put the Prius in R from D if you are moving either.

[Grumpy Cabbie]

Blimey how to complicate things

When I stop at a round about or junction or traffic lights I leave my foot on the brake. The I move it to the accelerator when I want to set off again. If I am stopped for a while I press park and when I leave the vehicle I apply the handbrake.

Simples

[RNS]

Blimey how to complicate things

When I stop at a round about or junction or traffic lights I leave my foot on the brake. The I move it to the accelerator when I want to set off again. If I am stopped for a while I press park and when I leave the vehicle I apply the handbrake.

Simples

indeed

[timberwolf]

Blimey how to complicate things

When I stop at a round about or junction or traffic lights I leave my foot on the brake. The I move it to the accelerator when I want to set off again. If I am stopped for a while I press park and when I leave the vehicle I apply the handbrake.

Simples

Exactly the same way that I've driven every other automatic although on my dad's Chevy Impala he didn't like me setting the parking brake because he would forgot to release it.

[Barbaric Daisy]

I have only been driving an automatic since the end of September, I used to use the biting point for keeping it still on hills in night rather than dazzle, I coasted round corners and roundabouts (easier than changing gear), in fact I was a fairly lazy driver!

We were taught by the IAM the same as previously mentioned, if you are the first 3 then keep the footbrake on, but also the handbrake, also keep it in gear so that if someone hit you from behind then your foot would leave the clutch, stall the engine and lock up. It was proved to be safer than leaving in neutral and the car travelled less in an impact when stalled.

However, I am yet to use my P button (I really dont like the rocking!), and when I park up I still only use the 'Hand' brake and let P engage itself when I am done! I think driving an automatic hasn't made me any less lazy! :)