Rav4 2.2 D-Cat 2007 - Do I Need A New Engine ?

[Arnaud]

Hi,

I have a few problems with my car, and it is getting worse now than 1) I've ran out of the warranty and 2) I plan to sell it (to my parents, nothing less).

I receive confusing information from the garage I use (where I bought the car and always had it serviced).

Summary of my car and its engine-related history:

- I bought a Rav4 2.2 D-Cat (177hp) in August 2007 (which makes it model rav 4.3, produced in the first-half of 2007)

- In July 2009, after 30.000km, I have recurrent warning signs of "low oil pressure", and take it to the garage; they check it, tell me there is something wrong with the sensor and they have to keep it for 2 weeks and check it more thorough, as "a new engine might be needed" in the worst case; in the end, no new engine, but a bunch of spare parts were changed, including a cylinder head gasket ("C type"), a thermostat, a water pump and an oil filter, as well as something with the piston(s) (but I can't find a translation of "zuigerveren" in Dutch!)

- The 3-year warranty lapsed in August 2010; prior to that, after receiving by mail an official invitation to extend my warranty to 5 years, I asked the garage about such an extension; the employee at the counter told me he had to check it, then called me back to say it was not possible, "because your car is a tax-free car, and the extended warranty does not apply to tax-free cars" (I work in an international organisation, which entitles me to such a tax-free car in the Netherlands; I bought this car at this garage, and it did not seem to be any problem for the normal warranty), which sounded to me like a bad excuse

- I've been recently told by a friend that this model might have a faulty design of the d-cat engine, which makes it unsuitable for short distances, since the catalyst converter does not warm up enough and returns uncleaned gases to the engine, clogging it; retrospectively, it seems to be what happened to me in 2009, but no proper information was given to me about it by the garage

- I went back to the garage yesterday, with 50.000km on the counter, and asked for a thorough check-up, before selling it to my parents; I especially insisted on checking the engine, mentioning the catalyst converter issues, and the employee kinda confirmed the issue, blaming "the Dutch speed regulations, which make the engine unfit for short travels indeed"; I also mentioned that a big cloud of smoke sometimes shows up from the exhaust pipe when I push the pedal down hard (arriving on the motorway for instance)

- They called me to say the car was ready, everything was fine, but they had to put 2 litres of oil (with the last oil exchange 7000km ago) in, which seemed quite much to them; the employee then mentioned a "known problem" from the constructor, and that they should monitor my oil levels over 2000, 4000, 6000 and 8000km, to check the variation, and see whether they should contact the importer for information about what-to-do-next

- When I go to pick the car up, another employee gives me the bill, mentioned off-handedly the addition of 2 litres of oil but nothing else, and wishes me good-bye; when I start to poke him about the question of the new engine, and mention I plan to sell the car to France, which is incompatible with monitoring the next 8000km, he gets all coy, but compromises on bringing the car after another 1000-1500km to check the oil level.

(NB: I did check the oil level last month, but I obviously did it wrong).

My questions now are:

- is the course of action proposed by the garage, ie monitoring oil on 1500 or 8000km, the appropriate one, or should I push them into "fixing" the problem earlier?

- how come I was running with 2 litres of oil missing and no indication in the dashboard? Is the sensor not so sensible, or is there something wrong with the sensor itself?

- is there any official tsb relating to this problem? All I have are hints and discussions with employees of Toyota.

I've browsed around about the EGR-valve issue on the forum, but it seems my problem is linked to the oil sensor (as well); parts were changed, which should have fixed the problem of EGR?

Any help is welcome!

Thanks,

Arnaud.

[webleymk3]

I am not the one to answer the engine problems.... however regarding your warranty. I had ongoing issues with my Auris before replacing it and when I challenged Toyota they advised me that if i had been having certain problems with the car before the warranty expired and then those problems reoccured after the warranty expired then Toyota will usually cover this.

[anchorman]

I will find you a TSB later.

[Arnaud]

I am not the one to answer the engine problems.... however regarding your warranty. I had ongoing issues with my Auris before replacing it and when I challenged Toyota they advised me that if i had been having certain problems with the car before the warranty expired and then those problems reoccured after the warranty expired then Toyota will usually cover this.

Thanks for the feedback :)

I hope they'll be fair indeed, if it happens to be the same problem since the beginning.

One employee told me some of it should be covered indeed by an extra-warranty, but I'll know it when it's done...

...I wouldn't want to to go this way, but if it were the same problem, badly corrected under warranty, and charged out of warranty, I'd have to go the legal way. But that'd be a stressful nightmare...

Anyway, still optimistic for the moment :)

[Arnaud]

I will find you a TSB later.

Thanks, that'd be very nice =)

A.

[anchorman]

Ok well the first thing - oil consumption is not considered excessive until it exceeds 1 litre per 1000 miles (1600 kms). Toyota will normally monitor the oil consumption then decide whether it needs to be fixed. The TSB is too big to post it here but I have produced a shorter 8 page version to show you the basis of it.

Excessive oil consumption 2.pdf

Next, the D-CAT system will discharge the occasional cloud of dust/smoke as it purges the DPF - that is normal.

The low oil level meter is just that. It will indicate that the level has reached a point where if it goes any lower there is risk of damage to the engine. It is not a replacement for the dipstick and the oil needs to be checked regularly.

Ther has been some comments lately about whether the engines with the D-CAT system are suitable for low mileage. The answer to that is that of course they are. The problem can come with the early models that were using oil and the use of low grade fuel. The products of combustion as a result of these items is sufficient to clog up the DPF and the EGR. There is little that can be done about the oil consumption unless it warrants an engine rebuild but we can all do something about the fuel. Lexus issued a warning about the use of low grade fuel for the same reason but Toyota are stuck as it suggest the choice of fuel is prohibitive. You may well find that your oil consumption settles down after the piston rings bed in and if you switch to high grade fuel you will keep the risk of problems low.

In answer to your final question, I don't think there is anything else but monitor the oil consumption to see what if anything needs to be done. Maybe it was never filled properly at the last inspection and maybe it will settle as discussed. If the checks suggest a problem you can start to push with Toyota for some action but until then you would have trouble proving anything is wrong.

Keep your chin up and just let them do their checks

[Arnaud]

Ok well the first thing - oil consumption is not considered excessive until it exceeds 1 litre per 1000 miles (1600 kms). Toyota will normally monitor the oil consumption then decide whether it needs to be fixed. The TSB is too big to post it here but I have produced a shorter 8 page version to show you the basis of it.

Excessive oil consumption 2.pdf

Next, the D-CAT system will discharge the occasional cloud of dust/smoke as it purges the DPF - that is normal.

The low oil level meter is just that. It will indicate that the level has reached a point where if it goes any lower there is risk of damage to the engine. It is not a replacement for the dipstick and the oil needs to be checked regularly.

Ther has been some comments lately about whether the engines with the D-CAT system are suitable for low mileage. The answer to that is that of course they are. The problem can come with the early models that were using oil and the use of low grade fuel. The products of combustion as a result of these items is sufficient to clog up the DPF and the EGR. There is little that can be done about the oil consumption unless it warrants an engine rebuild but we can all do something about the fuel. Lexus issued a warning about the use of low grade fuel for the same reason but Toyota are stuck as it suggest the choice of fuel is prohibitive. You may well find that your oil consumption settles down after the piston rings bed in and if you switch to high grade fuel you will keep the risk of problems low.

In answer to your final question, I don't think there is anything else but monitor the oil consumption to see what if anything needs to be done. Maybe it was never filled properly at the last inspection and maybe it will settle as discussed. If the checks suggest a problem you can start to push with Toyota for some action but until then you would have trouble proving anything is wrong.

Keep your chin up and just let them do their checks

Wow, thanks a lot for the very extensive answer, and the time you must have put in it! I'll check the pdf over the course of the day.

Anyway, so far, you've provided me with the sort of answer I was hoping for: it's probable there's nothing to really worry about, and the best course of action is to keep monitoring the oil consumption; the tsb will help me understand and discuss with the garage if things go wrong. And I'll stick to high grades of fuel.

Thanks again!

Arnaud

[Arnaud]

...and we start again...

I was just called by my father, the new owner, to be informed that the car does not go above 70 km/h any more. I suspect a safety-mode situation, and advised him to take it to the Toyota garage. I wonder what to expect now from the garage - catalytic converter to be changed?

I guess I'll know more today or in the next days.

I'm however horrified that my father has to take the car to the garage within the first month of ownership :(

[anchorman]

Have you cleaned the EGR?

[Arnaud]

Have you cleaned the EGR?

Hi, Anchorman, thanks for your answer.

I haven't cleaned anything, since the car is at my parents, 600km from here. But I do hope the garage comes up with a simple solution.

(Would that be doable home?)

Now what I have to do is try to summarize the Dutch repair details (since I bought the car in the Netherlands) into French (since my parents live there), and forward everything to the garage: if it's anything more complex than a clogged EGR or air filter, I'd like them to have an idea of the history of the car, but language barriers can have consequences here...

I did read somewhere about a "safety mode" for the engine, does it apply for the rav-4.3? What I mean is: does a power limitation to 70km/h hint you to an air/fuel/EGR issue, or could it be anything else, with the engine going "safe" until the motor is checked?

Anyway, I'll mention the EGR point when I call the garage tomorrow.

Thanks again,

A.

[anchorman]

There are several problems that will put the car in safe mode but problems surrounding the EGR or sometimes the CAT are not uncommon. In the UK these are usually rectified by the dealer even out of warranty. However, the EGR is easy to clean - you can find it in the pinned section and you can read the list of faults that will result in safe mode here;

Safe mode.pdf

I doubt your engine needs replacing.

[Arnaud]

Thanks again for all the help!

I doubt your engine needs replacing.

Yeah, me too now, I guess i'm just a bit of a car-hypocondriac... ;)

I'll update with the final result when I know it.

A.

[Arnaud]

Wow, really impressive document, by the way

[Arnaud]

And here we go again...

The total bill for the repairs was €1700, since they changed a fuel injector (the "fifth injector"?) and the EGR valve...

The Toyota garage advised my father to contact Toyota France, since they might participate in the expense.

Toyota France told my father they would not, since the car had not been produced in France (I did buy it in the Netherlands, where it was imported after being produced in Japan).

Now I'm wondering what I should do. This looks like the kind of problem I was dreading. I'll turn to my local dealer, to ask for covering up part of the charges, but I'm pretty sure I know what the answers will be.

[anchorman]

Both of these issues could be avoided by using high grade diesel. You could get a local garage to clean the EGR or do it yourself as shown in the pinned section. I'm afraid you are stuck with the dealer for the 5th injector as it needs programing to work.

Its too late now the work is done so a very polite letter to Toyota NV is in order. Ignore what the dealer says it is Toyota who will decide not them.

[Arnaud]

Both of these issues could be avoided by using high grade diesel. You could get a local garage to clean the EGR or do it yourself as shown in the pinned section. I'm afraid you are stuck with the dealer for the 5th injector as it needs programing to work.

Its too late now the work is done so a very polite letter to Toyota NV is in order. Ignore what the dealer says it is Toyota who will decide not them.

Well, I've only been using high-grade fuel, and also asked my father to do so...

But what's done is done, I just hope that's the end of the list of problems with this engine.

A polite letter certainly sounds like the best idea, and I'll get on it asap...

Thanks a lot for your help on all these matters, you've been a very useful reference point for me on all these questions...

[Arnaud]

And the answer from Toyota NL is of course: no we won't cover the expenses.

"Dear mr. Rilliard,

Thank you for your message. In this message you informed me about the technical problems which occurred with the Toyota RAV4 from your father. I hereby give you my response.

Unfortunately we cannot participate in the repair costs. There are a few reasons why there are no possibilities from Louwman & Parqui BV.

The manufacturers warranty has expired - Toyota’s have a long term warranty of 3 year/100.000 kilometers. As this warranty expired in august 2010, we are not in the opportunity to claim this repair for warranty at our manufacturer.

Goodwill offers must be organized at your local dealer -

Your father’s Toyota is repaired in France at the Saverne Toyota dealer. As we cannot make any diagnosis on your Toyota on this distance, the Toyota dealer in Saverne must discuss a goodwill offer with the French distributor. I advice you to contact the Saverne dealer for a goodwill offer.

I’m sorry that we cannot help you directly. If you have any questions, please call us at our toll free number 0800-0369 or send messages to info@toyota.nl .

With kind regards, LOUWMAN & PARQUI B.V, Pim Verbeeten, Toyota Information Center"

So, Toyota France refuses to pay because it wasn't bought in France, and Toyota Netherlands refuses to pay because it wasn't repaired in the Netherlands.

I understand that nobody wants to pay. That's the oldest story in the book.

I'm still disgusted, as I don't think we should pay for that well-known fault on a 3.5 year old, 55000km old engine. Also considering that the option of buying an extended warranty after 2.5 years was rejected.

A.

[Davrav]

And the answer from Toyota NL is of course: no we won't cover the expenses.

"Dear mr. Rilliard,

Thank you for your message. In this message you informed me about the technical problems which occurred with the Toyota RAV4 from your father. I hereby give you my response.

Unfortunately we cannot participate in the repair costs. There are a few reasons why there are no possibilities from Louwman & Parqui BV.

The manufacturers warranty has expired - Toyotas have a long term warranty of 3 year/100.000 kilometers. As this warranty expired in august 2010, we are not in the opportunity to claim this repair for warranty at our manufacturer.

Goodwill offers must be organized at your local dealer -

Your fathers Toyota is repaired in France at the Saverne Toyota dealer. As we cannot make any diagnosis on your Toyota on this distance, the Toyota dealer in Saverne must discuss a goodwill offer with the French distributor. I advice you to contact the Saverne dealer for a goodwill offer.

Im sorry that we cannot help you directly. If you have any questions, please call us at our toll free number 0800-0369 or send messages to info@toyota.nl .

With kind regards, LOUWMAN & PARQUI B.V, Pim Verbeeten, Toyota Information Center"

So, Toyota France refuses to pay because it wasn't bought in France, and Toyota Netherlands refuses to pay because it wasn't repaired in the Netherlands.

I understand that nobody wants to pay. That's the oldest story in the book.

I'm still disgusted, as I don't think we should pay for that well-known fault on a 3.5 year old, 55000km old engine. Also considering that the option of buying an extended warranty after 2.5 years was rejected.

A.

I think you need to get in touch with Toyota Europe - see post from pcdabbler

There's something of a discrepancy of treatment between the service you and he are getting.

[Arnaud]

I think you need to get in touch with Toyota Europe - see post from pcdabbler

There's something of a discrepancy of treatment between the service you and he are getting.

Thanks for the tip, I'll check it up.

A.

[Arnaud]

I think you need to get in touch with Toyota Europe - see post from pcdabbler

There's something of a discrepancy of treatment between the service you and he are getting.

...It seems that PCdabbler was lucky enough to have a break-down of his car in a Toyota dealer of his own country, anyhow.

In my case, it seems that my father, who lives in France and whose car broke down in France, should have 1) had his car towed to the Netherlands at his own expenses or 2) known beforehand the whole procedure within Toyota to explain the Toyota dealer the steps he should have considered to claim "good will" reimbursement from Toyota.

A.