Accelerator Surge Problem

[Mark E]

Hi...

First time on this forum... hope you might have a bit of advice.

I'm acting on behalf of my dad who's run into a dispute with a dealership up in Newcastle over his RAV4.

He's quite elderly and getting a bit stressed about it all... so I'm happier to chase it up for him.

Basically, he had some problems with the accelerator acting independently. At one stage he was stationary and the engine 'roared up to around 4,000 revs' while he was in neutral. For the rest of the trip he had to keep it in second to keep the speed down, burning the clutch out in the process.

The next day the problem had gone away... but he still decided to have it dropped off at the dealership.

Since then they've maintained the problem is simple wear and tear with the clutch, not the accelerator. It's a 09 model ( RAV4 SR180 2.2DM D-4D )and has around 15K on the clock. The bill is coming in around a grand and must be paid up before he can get the car back.

Customer services say they're looking into it... but I'm not holding my breath.

The VIN number starts with a J - so officially it's not on the recall list for faulty accelerators... but I wondered if anyone had heard of similar problems with that model? Or if they had any other advice..

Many thanks in advance...

MARK

[anchorman]

Welcome to the club Mark.

For sure the accelerator is a different type to the old sticky ones so that isn't it but there is a possible problem with the pedal getting stuck under rubber mats or any nongenuine mats. If they have trouble recreating it they may well come back to your dad. I think you might benefit from writing to TGB as they may at least meet you somewhere if they can clearly identify the mats are not involved. Don't rely on customer services at the dealership unless you know them to be really good.

Keeps us informed.

Customer Relations

Toyota (GB) PLC

Great Burgh

Burgh Heath

Epsom

Surrey

KT18 5UX

Phone 01737 363633

[Mark E]

Thanks Anchorman...

Really appreciate the advice. I've been in touch with TGB this morning and they're going to open an investigation into this. I suspect they'll just run the same diagnostic tests and come up with the same results... that there isn't a fault with the accelerator system. Even if they don't find anything it seems a bit harsh that the preventitive driving my dad had to carry out to get home - keeping it in second to slow the car down as the engine was racing ahead - meant that the clutch burnt out. And now, the dealership is saying it's natural 'wear and tear' on the clutch so repairs aren't covered by the 3 year warranty. The bill has now gone up to £1800 which seems a bit steep too.

We'll see what TBB come up with next week... but have a feeling this is going to rumble on for a while... a bit like the car.

Will keep you posted... and thanks again for such a kind welcome to the club...

Best,

Mark

[local hero]

Thanks Anchorman...

Really appreciate the advice. I've been in touch with TGB this morning and they're going to open an investigation into this. I suspect they'll just run the same diagnostic tests and come up with the same results... that there isn't a fault with the accelerator system. Even if they don't find anything it seems a bit harsh that the preventitive driving my dad had to carry out to get home - keeping it in second to slow the car down as the engine was racing ahead - meant that the clutch burnt out. And now, the dealership is saying it's natural 'wear and tear' on the clutch so repairs aren't covered by the 3 year warranty. The bill has now gone up to £1800 which seems a bit steep too.

We'll see what TBB come up with next week... but have a feeling this is going to rumble on for a while... a bit like the car.

Will keep you posted... and thanks again for such a kind welcome to the club...

Best,

Apologies answered in error

[anchorman]

It probably won't help you feel any better but it might help you to understand that the pedal unit that caused a problem was made by a company called CTS but your dad's RAV has a Denso unit which is competely enclosed and not affected in the same way. As for the clutch getting burned out then it is reasonable that if it (the revving) is due to a fault with the car then the manufacturer has some liability. If on the other hand it was a mat or something your dad could have prevented then he should have perhaps called the RAC or the garage and had it recovered rather than take the step of trying to nurse it home by slipping the clutch. I can understand and it does seem harsh when an elderly gent might not be as sharp as he used to be but it really does depend on what caused the accelerator to stick.

The nice thing is with TGB they will consider it and if they can't find a reason they might well make a "gesture". You can see both sides so be prepared for the worst as they have the upper hand on this one.

Good luck

[local hero]

It probably won't help you feel any better but it might help you to understand that the pedal unit that caused a problem was made by a company called CTS but your dad's RAV has a Denso unit which is competely enclosed and not affected in the same way. As for the clutch getting burned out then it is reasonable that if it (the revving) is due to a fault with the car then the manufacturer has some liability. If on the other hand it was a mat or something your dad could have prevented then he should have perhaps called the RAC or the garage and had it recovered rather than take the step of trying to nurse it home by slipping the clutch. I can understand and it does seem harsh when an elderly gent might not be as sharp as he used to be but it really does depend on what caused the accelerator to stick.

The nice thing is with TGB they will consider it and if they can't find a reason they might well make a "gesture". You can see both sides so be prepared for the worst as they have the upper hand on this one.

Good luck

TBH, I answered this post above without fully understanding the circumstances and was very annoyed, as i thought Mr T were trying to get out of the manufacturers warranty, has the car done it since? could a mat (as has been suggested)have caused the problem? I agree with Anchs it might have been better to have the car recovered, but none the less whatever did happen was either a sticking accelerator, manufacturers fault + IMO this should be fully investigated, or an error of judgement in having none secured floor mats, this has been a problem on a lot of vehicles including Toyota in the past, which is why drivers mats are now usually secured in some way, I hope whatever the outcome Toyota GB/your dealer treat this case sympatheticaly. Good luck Stew

[Mark E]

Thanks to both of you...

I not much of an expert on cars so appreciate the advice very much.

Speaking to my Dad, I think we can rule out slipping mats as the source of the problem. The experience of driving the car was as if the accelerator was depressed as hard as possible... well into the red on the revs gauge... rather than being the mat jamming underneath the pedal - if that makes sense.

Anyway the dealership aren't using this as an explanation and neither TGB.

As I say... I'm fairly sure the investigation will just fall in line with the dealership. That will mean taking a more simple line of attack. Basically... there was a fault with the engine which meant my Dad had to slip the clutch to limp home... and so any damage wasn't wear and tear... and the warranty should cover it. Seems simple to me... but I guess garages do anything they can to not foot repair bills.

Incidentally, we're logging this as a defect fault with VOSA, just in case they have a few other similar cases.

Cheers guys...

Mark

[local hero]

Thanks to both of you...

I not much of an expert on cars so appreciate the advice very much.

Speaking to my Dad, I think we can rule out slipping mats as the source of the problem. The experience of driving the car was as if the accelerator was depressed as hard as possible... well into the red on the revs gauge... rather than being the mat jamming underneath the pedal - if that makes sense.

Anyway the dealership aren't using this as an explanation and neither TGB.

As I say... I'm fairly sure the investigation will just fall in line with the dealership. That will mean taking a more simple line of attack. Basically... there was a fault with the engine which meant my Dad had to slip the clutch to limp home... and so any damage wasn't wear and tear... and the warranty should cover it. Seems simple to me... but I guess garages do anything they can to not foot repair bills.

Incidentally, we're logging this as a defect fault with VOSA, just in case they have a few other similar cases.

Cheers guys...

Mark

I never really went with the Mat thing, but i think this has now become a whole new ball game unfortunately i am not very technical, but what we seem to have here is not a sticking accelerator but if as you say this engine was stuck at max revs then possibly a pump/ecu fault, I don,t know the circumstances but did the revs start to rise as your dad was driving along? or did he start the car + the revs increased whilst the vehicle was stationary? either way your dad did well to get it into gear, what is the dealer saying, that it never happened? or that no fault code is showing? The reason i ask is that I have a scangauge fitted to mine,this is a basic reader that is plugged in to the OBD port, it cost about £110 + after a journey it will tell you quite a bit of info, such as max speed, fuel used, water temp, etc, etc,etc, and the interesting + relevent part to you MAXIMUM RPM now if this info is available through the OBD port to a £110 gauge I cannot rationalise that MR Ts £50,000 worth of diagnostic equipment cannot also see that this engine was at max revs + possibly how long the engine was at these revs, That in itself should be proof enough that a malfunction has occured + i cannot stress enough that this problem needs thoroughly investigating, and i do not mean some junior technician saying well their is no fault code showing so there was never a fault, Best of luck + hope you get a right result Stew

P.S. why has the bill risen from £1000 to £1800?

[Mark E]

Stew...

Sound advice. I think you've summed it up with where we are with the dealership. They've had their technician have a look at it... he can't find a fault... so there is no fault. They don't even recognise that the revs went through the roof so, unless Toyota's 'investigation' comes up with something different... it's their word against my Dad's... and unfortunately they've got his car.

I do hope Toyota give this a thorough investigation for everyone's sake. He was really tootling along between the lights in town... around 20 mph and the engine set off ahead of him. He's had four RAV's in the last 8 years and I believe him when he says this was something weird going on that was out of his control.

On the bill rise... they say they've found some burning on the fly wheel so that has to be replaced. They're talking about a 'discount' on the bill because I'm saying there's not chance it's getting paid at that price... especially on an early quote of £1000... and a clutch being replaced 3 years ago on his previous RAV that cost £700.

Will keep you posted... feels a bit like Bleak House at the moment... but hopefully Mr T will realise they'e about to lose a good customer here if they let the dealership have their way...

Thanks again...

Mark

Mark

I never really went with the Mat thing, but i think this has now become a whole new ball game unfortunately i am not very technical, but what we seem to have here is not a sticking accelerator but if as you say this engine was stuck at max revs then possibly a pump/ecu fault, I don,t know the circumstances but did the revs start to rise as your dad was driving along? or did he start the car + the revs increased whilst the vehicle was stationary? either way your dad did well to get it into gear, what is the dealer saying, that it never happened? or that no fault code is showing? The reason i ask is that I have a scangauge fitted to mine,this is a basic reader that is plugged in to the OBD port, it cost about £110 + after a journey it will tell you quite a bit of info, such as max speed, fuel used, water temp, etc, etc,etc, and the interesting + relevent part to you MAXIMUM RPM now if this info is available through the OBD port to a £110 gauge I cannot rationalise that MR Ts £50,000 worth of diagnostic equipment cannot also see that this engine was at max revs + possibly how long the engine was at these revs, That in itself should be proof enough that a malfunction has occured + i cannot stress enough that this problem needs thoroughly investigating, and i do not mean some junior technician saying well their is no fault code showing so there was never a fault, Best of luck + hope you get a right result Stew

P.S. why has the bill risen from £1000 to £1800?

[Davrav]

Have a look at this Mark LINK

Though the ones mentioned here are in the US and most likely autos, similar symptoms

[Mark E]

Thanks so much for the link... very useful. Those speed control issues do seem very similar to my Dad's experiences..

Best,

Mark