Yaris Mmt Gearbox - 1St Gear Problem

[sonofpincher]

We went for a Yaris MMT because my wife felt she needed an auto-box, but I am an economy "freak" and didn't want to compromise economy by choosing an auto (I really wanted a diesel MMT, but Toyota couldn't find one anywhere - so we had to go for a petrol, and long term, Toyota have lost a friend in me - loved the 2.0 diesel Auris we had for 2 years to pull the caravan - that's another story --but, why does it constantly change right down into first every time? I have worked out that in slow traffic conditions, putting it in "Manual" and operating the lever or paddle will select 2nd ( but only if the car is stopped completely), and provided the box is kept in "Manual" it remembers to stop in second, which is OK for the gentle driving I do, starting on the level or downhill. However, if the lever is either put in Neutral, or put back into "E" Auto mode, the "memory" of me wanting it to stop in second is lost every time, so off we go again in a series of jerks. Worse, when the engine is cold, in Auto, the box refuses to change up out of first until 2500rpm, and out of second at the same revs. I have NEVER run a stone-cold engine up to those revs before changing gear. So I am having trouble adapting my driving style to this gearbox, or making the box do what I want it to do, even in Manual. Is there a software fix that can be done to the system, or do I, like a few others( if you read some road tests) give up the MMT option and buy something more satisfying to drive.

[Cyker]

For that level of control, it's manual or nothing IMHO.

I've never been a fan of semi-autos as they force you to drive the way the car wants to be driven. I like manuals and I don't mind real autos but I've yet to come across a semi-auto that I got on with. (Well, I tell a lie, the VW DSG gearbox is quite nice...)

Autos always shift at higher revs than manuals to reduce the risk of stalling, e.g. if you were going up a super-steep hill or something.

TBH tho', Toyota's MMT is probably the worst of the semi-auto's I've tried (At least the Yaris ones!).

That said, lots of Auris MMT owners who've had their ECU upgraded or just got new ones have been singing its praises so hopefully most of the kinks have been worked out, but I've yet to have a play in one of those!

[mrpj]

Have you also found that in E, if your's is a six speed 'box, it refuses to change to 6th at any speed less than 75mph? When I complained about this to my supplying dealer I was told, "that's how it's programmed, nothing we can do". So we effectively have a car manufacturer encouraging driving over the legal limit to enable a gear change! Yes, it can be over-ridden in M but that defeats the object.

I must say I've not experienced the continual change down to 1st though. The higher revs change from 1st to 2nd is the same on mine (1.4 Diesel). On a couple of occasions it's actually gone to 3.5k rpm which is quite scary especially when trying to nip into a gap at a roundabout where the revs keep increasing but the speed hardly does - drivers behind are not too impressed with that! :o

I hardly ever use E now and drive in M whatever the traffic or road conditions. Toyota either need to programme the thing properly or just market it as a no clutch pedal manual and do away with E mode altogether.

They reset the clutch and that seems to have improved the changes a bit in E, less jerky. However, that could be more a psychological perception?

My Yaris is 6 weeks old so I would expect it to have the latest ECU, surely any upgrades on the Auris MMT control are also applied to other models?

I have posted elsewhere on this forum about my fear of making an expensive mistake in purchasing a first Toyota and the MMT version. No rose tinted glasses on my nose!

[sonofpincher]

Have you also found that in E, if your's is a six speed 'box, it refuses to change to 6th at any speed less than 75mph? When I complained about this to my supplying dealer I was told, "that's how it's programmed, nothing we can do". So we effectively have a car manufacturer encouraging driving over the legal limit to enable a gear change! Yes, it can be over-ridden in M but that defeats the object.

I must say I've not experienced the continual change down to 1st though. The higher revs change from 1st to 2nd is the same on mine (1.4 Diesel). On a couple of occasions it's actually gone to 3.5k rpm which is quite scary especially when trying to nip into a gap at a roundabout where the revs keep increasing but the speed hardly does - drivers behind are not too impressed with that! :o

I hardly ever use E now and drive in M whatever the traffic or road conditions. Toyota either need to programme the thing properly or just market it as a no clutch pedal manual and do away with E mode altogether.

They reset the clutch and that seems to have improved the changes a bit in E, less jerky. However, that could be more a psychological perception?

My Yaris is 6 weeks old so I would expect it to have the latest ECU, surely any upgrades on the Auris MMT control are also applied to other models?

I have posted elsewhere on this forum about my fear of making an expensive mistake in purchasing a first Toyota and the MMT version. No rose tinted glasses on my nose!

[sonofpincher]

No, mine is a six-speed, and in "E" (auto mode) it changes nicely into sixth at around 50/55. Also, I have found that if I am cruising in a 40 limit for example, I can also operate the paddle (in auto), and number 6 comes up on the screen (wouldn't it be nice if they put the display in front of you?) to indicate that I have over-ridden the auto, and then goes out. Fine if still "drifting" at 40, but any slight increase in throttle or slope makes it drop out to 5th, or even 4th, which is annoying, and in these conditions I often move into "Manual" so that the damn thing stays in gear and "pulls" Fuel MPG indicator tells me that it uses less fuel in the higher gear, so I make it do as it is told. If I drive in Manual from the start- depending upon what mood I am in to tame the beast- I find that I can be in 6th below 40mph, so if yours wont touch 6th until over 70mph, there must be something wrong with it. Can't say I'm happy with it, and will probably get rid ASAP. For a petrol, fuel consumption is not bad- 50+ on a long run and 42/43 generally urban, but I could get that out of my previous 2.0 diesel Auris TR, and that had 124bhp, & had power when needed. So, a bad change to a smaller car for no benefit to practicality or joy of motoring.

[mrpj]

Thanks for the response.

Do I have your permission to present your post to my dealer if that's the case with regards to changing to 6th in E at 50/55mph in your's? They'll no doubt tell me that it's different for the petrol version?!

If I'm doing 65/70mph in E and over-ride using the up paddle it changes to 6th then more or less immediately changes back down to 5th! Trying to over-ride at anything less than that, it will not shift.

For a Diesel car of this size the fuel consumption is very disappointing, I'm a conservative driver and only achieving mid 50s mpg (town/rural/motorway). I previously had a 1.7 Diesel Vauxhall Meriva,(5 speed manual) which is also a heavier and bigger car than the Yaris and better quality/build, achieving a similar or better consumption on the same routes etc.

"So, a bad change to a smaller car for no benefit to practicality or joy of motoring." My sentiments exactly.

[Madasafish]

A diesel is not run in till 10k miles so if yours has less miles than that, fuel consumption should improve...

[Cyker]

AFAIK, the MMT ECU firmware improvements for the Auris have not filtered down to the Yaris, and I'm not expecting them to given Toyota UK's apparent scaling back on the Yaris :(

(I know, not good news given the Yaris' MMT is even worse than the Aygo's! )

Can you trade it for a manual one? I reckon you'd be much happier ;)

To be fair tho', between the winter and the running in, the mpg will likely improve over time; You can also try using thinner oil but you'll need to be careful and keep an eye on the oil levels because it'll consume it at a slightly faster rate...

[sonofpincher]

Thanks for the response.

Do I have your permission to present your post to my dealer if that's the case with regards to changing to 6th in E at 50/55mph in your's? They'll no doubt tell me that it's different for the petrol version?!

If I'm doing 65/70mph in E and over-ride using the up paddle it changes to 6th then more or less immediately changes back down to 5th! Trying to over-ride at anything less than that, it will not shift.

For a Diesel car of this size the fuel consumption is very disappointing, I'm a conservative driver and only achieving mid 50s mpg (town/rural/motorway). I previously had a 1.7 Diesel Vauxhall Meriva,(5 speed manual) which is also a heavier and bigger car than the Yaris and better quality/build, achieving a similar or better consumption on the same routes etc.

"So, a bad change to a smaller car for no benefit to practicality or joy of motoring." My sentiments exactly.

[sonofpincher]

Yes, show anybody if it will help. I tried yesterday, and in Manual, mine will even go into 6th below 40- and stay there until it starts changing down through the gears below 30. Trouble is, it carries on down to 1st again, so I have to stop, engage Manual, pull back on the lever to select 2nd, (only on the level or downhill), and set off smoothly, selecting Auto immediately, and if driving gently, I must admit, the box changes up smoothly and early into the highest gear, usually 5th even in a 30 limit, and then in most cases, a shift up on the paddle will put it in 6th. Certainly, moving the lever across to Manual will indicate which gear the Auto mode has selected for you, and then you can change it up. as I said on my previous post, my petrol MMT Yaris will cruise on a long Motorway journey at around 65 in 6th all the way, and return 50+ for the trip, but I know that if I had your Diesel ( and it used 6th at a sensible speed) I would be getting 65/70mpg! Dont let the Dealer tell you the Diesel should hang on to these high revs in 5th, any diesel driver should confirm that diesels relish low revs, high gearing and plenty of "pull" I have owned diesels on which one could let the clutch in on "tick-over" and without touching the accellerator, reach 4th or 5th and nearly 40 mph just at the tick-over setting!

[mrpj]

Replies appreciated.

I've contacted Toyota and await a response from their tech. dept. re the reluctance to change up to 6th in "E" mode at or below legal max. speed.

Checked it again this afternoon and 6th gear wasn't selected until 80mph and near 3000rev/min was reached.

In "M" I change up to 6th at 50 - 55 mph and it's more than happy at that speed.

Yes, I've had mostly Diesels for as long as I can remember. Years ago I had a Peugeot 505 Family estate with a 2.5 litre (75 bhp ) naturally aspirated "tractor" engine with which it was possible to just let out the clutch pedal without using any extra fuel and it would toddle along at about 5 mph uphill and down dale. Very useful for slow moving traffic. Even that old monster at nearly 2000kg turned in 40+ mpg with 7 and two big dogs on board!

Cyker, there's no way I'm trading in or selling a 6 week old car, Im not that "flush". :)

[sonofpincher]

Replies appreciated.

I've contacted Toyota and await a response from their tech. dept. re the reluctance to change up to 6th in "E" mode at or below legal max. speed.

Checked it again this afternoon and 6th gear wasn't selected until 80mph and near 3000rev/min was reached.

In "M" I change up to 6th at 50 - 55 mph and it's more than happy at that speed.

Yes, I've had mostly Diesels for as long as I can remember. Years ago I had a Peugeot 505 Family estate with a 2.5 litre (75 bhp ) naturally aspirated "tractor" engine with which it was possible to just let out the clutch pedal without using any extra fuel and it would toddle along at about 5 mph uphill and down dale. Very useful for slow moving traffic. Even that old monster at nearly 2000kg turned in 40+ mpg with 7 and two big dogs on board!

Cyker, there's no way I'm trading in or selling a 6 week old car, Im not that "flush". :)

[sonofpincher]

just a thought -- My petrol MMT Yaris has an "ES" button just behind the gearlever. If this is in operation (and it shows a warning light on the panel), the box holds onto gears longer - to suit the "Boy Racers", to achieve more accelleration. Perhaps you know this?

[mrpj]

Yes, thanks. I've only ever used the Es button once just to see what happened and to make sure it worked. I wasn't that impressed, and as you say all that happens is the gear changes occur at higher revs, I can do that in M, thanks Toyota! Another useless gimmick.

Toyota said they would contact me within 48 hours, that was 72 hours yesterday afternoon and nothing. So much for their "customer care".

[mrpj]

After not hearing anything further from Toyota I 'phoned them yesterday morning. He advised there was a letter on the way which arrived today. I'll quote what is written about 6th gear in E mode which I personally think is nonsense! They can't comment on sonofpinchers post re 5th to 6th change speed and obviously couldn't state which car was set up correctly?

"I have raised your concerns with our Technical Department and they have advised that the "E" or "Easy" mode is designed to give the optimum level of fuel consumption and emissions from the engine but the vehicle will have to reach a higher speed, to reach the optimum emissions for the gear to change to "6"."

So that's why the thing doesn't change down on an uphill and lets the engine labour in too high a gear - bad for economy, emissions and the drive train! Or why it doesn't mostly change from 1st to 2nd until the revs reach a ridiculous level.

They also commented on "Sport" mode which, according to them, and contrary to what the handbook states, is more economical because the changes are at the discretion of the driver? :o No, that's "Manual" mode surely. I never mentioned Sport mode in any communication.

I asked what 6th gear was for then in the U.K. and was told "economy".

If this is an example of the Tech. Dept. then it doesn't really inspire much confidence.

[sonofpincher]

I think you have had a reply from Toyota written by someone who has probably never driven a D4D MMT! Of course 6th gear is for "economy" - changing up to the highest gear appropriate to the road speed will always aid economy - but not if you have to get to 80+ mph! As I posted on the start of this blog, my petrol one is in 6th by about 55mph, which I can tell by pulling the lever across to Manual, where it shows up number 6 ( I wish it showed up the gear numbers in"E" mode as well). There is a long blog on the site about fuel consumption of D4D's, but not MMT versions. What do you get? Have you considered "blogging" on this site for the experience of other D4D MMT owners (with 6-speed versions), to see what their motors do?

[mrpj]

If their response re E mode was generated by the Tech. Dept. then it IS a bit worrying? They patently don't know the difference between E, E Sport and M modes?! The letter also said that as Toyata's are a worldwide brand then gearboxes can't be manufactured to cater for specific countries or roads. It's got nothing to do with the gearbox, I understood it was the conventional 6 speed box with electronic/electric control to operate the clutch and the gear selection? I suspect the control unit linked to my gearbox is set up incorrectly and they can't be !Removed! d to fit one that is.

I did find it rather amusing that on one hand 6th gear wasn't used in E because it was economical not to and on the other it was there because it was economical.

"What do you get?" Very disappointing. Initially low to mid 50s mpg now dropped to high 40s! Compared to my previous Vauxhall, much heavier and bigger car, 1.7 Diesel, 5 speed box, consistently from day one with 10 miles clocked, mid 50s. Same journeys and same conservative driving style.

[Geriatric]

Very interesting to read of the problems with the MMT box. I had a Corolla with the 5speed MMT box for five years and was very pleased with it. The car was stolen and I replaced it with a 107 which uses the Aygo 5speed MMT box.

There is no built in creep on this box and my first impression was on the 1 to 2 and 2 to 1 changes it was a bit better. However after several months the clutch would sometimes not engage whem manoeuvering and then come in with a lurch as the revs had built up. I took it back to Peugeot and they did something and the box was really firstclass. I was not able to ascertain what was done. The box has now 5months later deteriorated again and 1 to 2 and 2 to 1 changes are very jerky. I was thinking of changing to a Yaris diesel MMT but what has been written here has put me off somewhat. Unfortunately it is hard to find out how these boxes actually operate and whether clutch wear adjustment is automatic and the firmware used can be easily updated.

Does the Yaris 6speed MMT box have built increep or "easystart" as the 6speed Corolla box had?

[mrpj]

"Does the Yaris 6speed MMT box have built increep or "easystart" as the 6speed Corolla box had?"

Yes, they call it "start assist" or something like that. I must say I've found it good. As soon as the footbrake is released the clutch partially engages then fully bites as the speed rises. I found it particularly useful in the recent ice and snow providing a really smooth and wheel slip free take off. Hill starts are an absolute doddle.

I have become more accustomed to the MMT but you still need to be aware of the odd totally illogical tricks the electronics occasionally and unexpectedly perform!

[gloucester]

Several comments on Yaris MMT not changing into 6th until quite high speeds. Could be that people are still accelerating which could mean a later change into 6th. Driven on a light throttle mine changes about 50 mph in E mode. I can make change at about 40 mph in manual. If people don't like these gearboxes they should change to another make or model. Much of this is just the way people drive. Of course, if the problem is really serious they need to get something done about it. After many years in the car trade believe me Toyota are no worse than any other maker. Probably better than most.

[mrpj]

"If people don't like these gearboxes they should change to another make or model." In the process of doing so, first and last Toyota!