Is The Time Right To Petition Toyota Uk?

[frankie49]

As a newcomer and a T180 owner you have my support

[Parts-King]

Interestingly enough, one of the Rav4 France Club member enquired to the french equivalent of the DVLA whether those stupid BSRs were part of the technical specification of the car and apparently they are not. So technically a change to normal tyres without modifying the spec of the car is possible. Added to the fact that there are some dealers (although not many) who are willing to do it,

I do try and keep out of this debate but do have to toe the company line

The run flat system IS part of the homologation process for the T180 and IS part of the technical spec for the car. Whilst removing the runflat ring MIGHT be possible, you make your own choices, however do consider, if you sell the car on, the person you sell it to might not be made aware of the change in spec, if you sold it to a dealer (any dealer or trader) and didnt mention it, you could be liable for making a false statement and open to paying any damages. This is unlikely but entirely possible, not your problem whilst you own the car but could come back and bite you if you were "economical" with the truth

Kingo

[wardude]

If you bought the car NEW then I guess you could be liable so to speak. However if you bought the car second hand then you could just plead ignourant and say your tyre guy took the tyres off and popped new ones on and you knew nothing about run flat tyres etc. There was also a puncture repair thingy in the boot so you never thought anyhting about tyres being runflat etc.

[Stusw2]

Oh Dear!! I have been a T180 owner now for 2 years and i have just been told by the dealer that I need 2 new front tyres at a csot of £255 + VAT each...and just discovered the whole issue about these tyres ....what a rip off!! You have myname for ant form of petition to Toyota...fab car - but what a rip off

Stusw2

[wardude]

dont do it Stu, cut rings off lol

[MarsKy]

Oh Dear!! I have been a T180 owner now for 2 years and i have just been told by the dealer that I need 2 new front tyres at a csot of £255 + VAT each...and just discovered the whole issue about these tyres ....what a rip off!! You have myname for ant form of petition to Toyota...fab car - but what a rip off

Stusw2

If you must stick with the Bridgestone Duelers then try TyreTraders and find a garage who are confident in fitting tyres with tyre pressure sensors.

But you don't need to stick with the Duelers.

[Stusw2]

Oh Dear!! I have been a T180 owner now for 2 years and i have just been told by the dealer that I need 2 new front tyres at a csot of £255 + VAT each...and just discovered the whole issue about these tyres ....what a rip off!! You have myname for ant form of petition to Toyota...fab car - but what a rip off

Stusw2

If you must stick with the Bridgestone Duelers then try TyreTraders and find a garage who are confident in fitting tyres with tyre pressure sensors.

But you don't need to stick with the Duelers.

[Stusw2]

Oh God! This is getting me even more confused now.....some say cut off the belts and get normal tyres, others say just get the tyres and find a garage that is confident with working with these belts....I live in South London and I dont know of any decent type fitters - let alone any of them that would be prepared to cut off belts etc......Im getting really confused now and wish I had never bought the damn car - grrrr

Anyone else in South London who can advise?

Thanks

Stu

The garage that was quoting £255 + VAT was in Swansea South Wales, so who knows what they will be chargeing in London :-(

[MarsKy]

Oh God! This is getting me even more confused now.....some say cut off the belts and get normal tyres, others say just get the tyres and find a garage that is confident with working with these belts....I live in South London and I dont know of any decent type fitters - let alone any of them that would be prepared to cut off belts etc......Im getting really confused now and wish I had never bought the damn car - grrrr

Anyone else in South London who can advise?

Thanks

Stu

The garage that was quoting £255 + VAT was in Swansea South Wales, so who knows what they will be chargeing in London :-(

Ochone, ochone, ochone! (Copyright Angus Og).

You could take the easier route - buy the Duelers at the cheap price and pay a Toyota dealer (or an independent) with "the machine" to just fit them like wot Toyota would do.

Edit: Old list of garages with "the machine"

[Stusw2]

Oh God! This is getting me even more confused now.....some say cut off the belts and get normal tyres, others say just get the tyres and find a garage that is confident with working with these belts....I live in South London and I dont know of any decent type fitters - let alone any of them that would be prepared to cut off belts etc......Im getting really confused now and wish I had never bought the damn car - grrrr

Anyone else in South London who can advise?

Thanks

Stu

The garage that was quoting £255 + VAT was in Swansea South Wales, so who knows what they will be chargeing in London :-(

Ochone, ochone, ochone! (Copyright Angus Og).

You could take the easier route - buy the Duelers at the cheap price and pay a Toyota dealer (or an independent) with "the machine" to just fit them like wot Toyota would do.

Edit: Old list of garages with "the machine"

Will a dealer do this? I will check to see whether my local dealer would be willing to fit tyres that I have sourced.....dont think there are any people around me who have "the machine"...where can i find a list of these elicit "machine" owners?

Woops - just seen the list - saw this one earlier and rang one place on the list and they informed me that they didnt have "the machine"...and as there are none listed in South London or nearby - Im stuffed !!!

[MarsKy]

Will a dealer do this? I will check to see whether my local dealer would be willing to fit tyres that I have sourced.....dont think there are any people around me who have "the machine"...where can i find a list of these elicit "machine" owners?

Woops - just seen the list - saw this one earlier and rang one place on the list and they informed me that they didnt have "the machine"...and as there are none listed in South London or nearby - Im stuffed !!!

I can't remember how the list was compiled. It looks like duncerduncs did it - but I don't know how he got the info.

There used to be a guy from Bridgestone who popped in to steer us towards their run flats, but I think he gave up on us all!

You could either contact your local Toyota dealer to find out where the nearest machine is - but someone in Aberdeen had their wheels sent 150 miles to Glasgow (seems some dealers are not repairing broken £15-20k BSR fitting machines - can't blame them for not throwing good money after bad).

Alternatively contact Bridgestone UK. And if they can email you a list, let the forum know.

[shcm]

The Bridgestone Man popped up in this thread and the list originated from him there:

http://www.toyotaownersclub.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=51249&view=findpost&p=783341

The one above looks to have more in though

If you go all the way through the thread, you can see this has been grinding on for years and years and............

[local hero]

As SHCM says this has been going on a long time, but just to re-cap, (I don't have a T180/sr180,) How are these rings attached to the wheels? can they be removed without butchering them ? do you need this special machine to remove them without damaging the wheels/valves? has anyone succesfully removed them on a diy basis? Has anyone removed/deactivated the TPMS succesfully? and lastly, If Anchs can arrange a meeting with Bridgestone/Toyota, what outcome do you realisticly hope for? I have scoured various websites + even Bridgestones say the wheels themselves are std wheels. If it were possible to get that confirmed then clearly fitting normal tyres to them is not a safety issue, The sticky point IMO is the TPMS i read somewhere that they could become compulsory (I presume for new cars) in the next couple of years, I think that could be attacked from the point of view that members may want to fit winter tyres/wheels, is it possible to make the TPMS switchable? Which begs the question what do T180 owners do in countrys where winter tyre are compulsory? Stew

[shcm]

Right, lets have one last go with some educated(?) guesses with this.

First, spare wheels and second sets of wheels/TPMS sensors for winter use etc.

The pics below are taken from the repair manual. They show Toyota displays of their Test/Diag tool when accessing the TPMS ECU.

The fact that the second display shows IDs 1-5 suggests to me that you could register up to 5 sensors in the system. (i.e. 4 plus a spare). The fact that the second display shows "Main Tyre" and "2nd Tire" suggests to me you could have a second set of sensors registered and presumably select which set is active. So, probably 10 sensors max, with one set of up to 5 active at a time.

Wardude (I think it was) made a good point elsewhere that, possibly the warning light could be disabled by not registering any sensor IDs in the ECU. The fact that the first display shows "Total Tires", with a modifiable input value possibly supports this.

I've never played with a Toyota tester, so this is all hypothetical, but perhaps not unreasonable.

All of the above is probably either going to cost you money, or access to a Toyota or third party TPMS tool.

Second - disabling the thing and the warning light.

Yes, there is info elsewhere on the web, where the ECU has been unplugged on other Toyotas and the light is disabled. I have my doubts that it is quite that simple with the RAV. My memory may be playing tricks, but I'm sure one forum member has already tried this and told me it didn't work.

Look at the above - taken from the repair manual. Lots more speculation here, but my guess is that "Active circuit" in the instrument pack is the small problem. I expect it is something like a voltage "window" comparator - it detects a voltage in a given range and provides an on/off output depending whether the voltage is in that range or not.

My theory goes like this:

The pink wire from the instrument pack to the ECU is the thing what controls the lamp. If it is disconnected, the voltage at "TIRE" on the instrument pack gets pulled up to Battery voltage by R1. That's detected by the "Active Circuit" and it turns the light on. This is detecting the fault condition that the ECU has been disconnected. This is not an unreasonable thing to do with a system that is supposed to be safety related. It is telling you there is a malfunction with the system - i.e. no warning from the TPMS ECU can be given to the driver as the lamp connection from the ECU is broken.

OK, The bits in red in the TPMS ECU, I have added as a guess of what I think is the simplified circuit in there. When the ECU wants to turn the warning light on SW1 is closed (OK the switch will really be a transistor) and TIRE on the instrument pack is pulled to ground. Again that is "detected" by the instrument pack and the lamp comes on. With the lamp off, the voltage at TYRE is determined by the potential divider (google potential divider) R1 and R2 and the voltage at TIRE will be somewhere between Battery voltage and ground.

So, (still a theory), to disable the lamp, all you need is the correct voltage at TIRE. That could be done by disconnecting the TPMS ECU (perhaps even just backing out the TIRE pin from the connector at the inst pack) and adding a resistor locally at the instrument pack, between the TIRE connection and ground. I don't know what that voltage is, so I can't work out a value for the resistor. I'm kind of sick of saying this, but I need to measure it to confirm all this, or at least somebody does. That provides you with a cheap, non-Toyota disable method.

If you are worried about the ECU storing faults, well, just disconnect (or switch) the power feed. It only has a simple ignition switched feed, so it is can only ever be active (and therefore storing fault codes) with the ignition on. One concern might be that it is sometimes never a good idea to have active inputs to some electronics, with no power supply connected, and if the TPMS connector was still in, you might with the vehicle speed signal for instance, but ECUs are usually designed to be tolerant of such things.

I've effectively posted the above many times, so I'm not going to repeat it again. Take it or leave it. It would be nice if somebody could actually try some investigation. In fact, while I have every sympathy for the run-flat situation, I'm going to be provocative and say that my perception of the majority (that's not all) of T180 owners on here who are anti run-flat/TPMS, perfer to whine about it, rather than investigate a simple solution. :P.

Go on, prove me wrong

[anchorman]

Well I won't because you are quite right, I unplugged one and it never made any difference Nevr tried anything on from that though.

[vivianM]

Will a dealer do this? I will check to see whether my local dealer would be willing to fit tyres that I have sourced.....dont think there are any people around me who have "the machine"...where can i find a list of these elicit "machine" owners?

Woops - just seen the list - saw this one earlier and rang one place on the list and they informed me that they didnt have "the machine"...and as there are none listed in South London or nearby - Im stuffed !!!

I can't remember how the list was compiled. It looks like duncerduncs did it - but I don't know how he got the info.

There used to be a guy from Bridgestone who popped in to steer us towards their run flats, but I think he gave up on us all!

You could either contact your local Toyota dealer to find out where the nearest machine is - but someone in Aberdeen had their wheels sent 150 miles to Glasgow (seems some dealers are not repairing broken £15-20k BSR fitting machines - can't blame them for not throwing good money after bad).

Alternatively contact Bridgestone UK. And if they can email you a list, let the forum know.

I have a list of all Toyota dealers who (should) can change run flats and have given it to several members email me on martinguy@aol.com if you want a copy sent as an attachment. It will be a Word doc or RTF file

Put RUNFLAT LIST in the subject line and I will know it is not spam !

I must stress that the list is now two years old so a call to your nearest dealer might be wise to check that they still do the work

Personally I do not have a problem with having run flats and was well aware of them before I bought the T180 - might well complain if I get a flat and cannot get it replaced quickly !!

Guy

[Parts-King]

I can mail order run flat tyres to your door at a very good price, however, you would be responsible for getting them fitted at your dealer/tyre fitter

Kingo

[wardude]

I have no problem with run flats. What i have the problem with is the price of them and the lack of folk who can fit them. I have to drive 65 miles to a dealer that has the machine. (yet they tell me I can only drive 50 miles with a flat) Even then they say you may have to buy a new support ring at £100 as they may damage it changing the trye. None of this was explained to me when I bought the car off Toyota. I was told a Toyota dealer would need to change it. Fair enough I thought its only 20 mins down the road. I wasnt told that it had to be a "certain" dealer, nor was I told about damaging support rings or the actual price. Complete joke. The least Toyota could do would be to either disable the warning light on the dash for those of us that would be happy to do without the TPMS, OR, Admit its a joke and remove support bands free of charge and supply a tyre repair kit. in this day and age its a complete farce that if you have a puncture you may be without your car for a few days or more while a tyre is changed.

As for Toyota playing ball, i dont think its gonna happen. Hell, they wouildent even entertain my ripped seat which they even had a fix in place for and admitted there was a fault with. The only guy so far that I have been happy dealing with is Kingo. The garage I bought my car from RMB TOYOTA are complete cowboys and the dealing I had with Toyota UK was far from pleasant

[local hero]

Right, lets have one last go with some educated(?) guesses with this.

First, spare wheels and second sets of wheels/TPMS sensors for winter use etc.

The pics below are taken from the repair manual. They show Toyota displays of their Test/Diag tool when accessing the TPMS ECU.

The fact that the second display shows IDs 1-5 suggests to me that you could register up to 5 sensors in the system. (i.e. 4 plus a spare). The fact that the second display shows "Main Tyre" and "2nd Tire" suggests to me you could have a second set of sensors registered and presumably select which set is active. So, probably 10 sensors max, with one set of up to 5 active at a time.

Wardude (I think it was) made a good point elsewhere that, possibly the warning light could be disabled by not registering any sensor IDs in the ECU. The fact that the first display shows "Total Tires", with a modifiable input value possibly supports this.

I've never played with a Toyota tester, so this is all hypothetical, but perhaps not unreasonable.

All of the above is probably either going to cost you money, or access to a Toyota or third party TPMS tool.

Second - disabling the thing and the warning light.

Yes, there is info elsewhere on the web, where the ECU has been unplugged on other Toyotas and the light is disabled. I have my doubts that it is quite that simple with the RAV. My memory may be playing tricks, but I'm sure one forum member has already tried this and told me it didn't work.

Look at the above - taken from the repair manual. Lots more speculation here, but my guess is that "Active circuit" in the instrument pack is the small problem. I expect it is something like a voltage "window" comparator - it detects a voltage in a given range and provides an on/off output depending whether the voltage is in that range or not.

My theory goes like this:

The pink wire from the instrument pack to the ECU is the thing what controls the lamp. If it is disconnected, the voltage at "TIRE" on the instrument pack gets pulled up to battery voltage by R1. That's detected by the "Active Circuit" and it turns the light on. This is detecting the fault condition that the ECU has been disconnected. This is not an unreasonable thing to do with a system that is supposed to be safety related. It is telling you there is a malfunction with the system - i.e. no warning from the TPMS ECU can be given to the driver as the lamp connection from the ECU is broken.

OK, The bits in red in the TPMS ECU, I have added as a guess of what I think is the simplified circuit in there. When the ECU wants to turn the warning light on SW1 is closed (OK the switch will really be a transistor) and TIRE on the instrument pack is pulled to ground. Again that is "detected" by the instrument pack and the lamp comes on. With the lamp off, the voltage at TYRE is determined by the potential divider (google potential divider) R1 and R2 and the voltage at TIRE will be somewhere between battery voltage and ground.

So, (still a theory), to disable the lamp, all you need is the correct voltage at TIRE. That could be done by disconnecting the TPMS ECU (perhaps even just backing out the TIRE pin from the connector at the inst pack) and adding a resistor locally at the instrument pack, between the TIRE connection and ground. I don't know what that voltage is, so I can't work out a value for the resistor. I'm kind of sick of saying this, but I need to measure it to confirm all this, or at least somebody does. That provides you with a cheap, non-Toyota disable method.

If you are worried about the ECU storing faults, well, just disconnect (or switch) the power feed. It only has a simple ignition switched feed, so it is can only ever be active (and therefore storing fault codes) with the ignition on. One concern might be that it is sometimes never a good idea to have active inputs to some electronics, with no power supply connected, and if the TPMS connector was still in, you might with the vehicle speed signal for instance, but ECUs are usually designed to be tolerant of such things.

I've effectively posted the above many times, so I'm not going to repeat it again. Take it or leave it. It would be nice if somebody could actually try some investigation. In fact, while I have every sympathy for the run-flat situation, I'm going to be provocative and say that my perception of the majority (that's not all) of T180 owners on here who are anti run-flat/TPMS, perfer to whine about it, rather than investigate a simple solution. :P.

Go on, prove me wrong

Thanks once again Andy for an excellent reply, even i understood most of it, although it is not my problem, i have done quite a bit of searching around on this and from what i understand the Rav4 is unique in that you cannot reset the Tpms there is a method on an American site but this refers to a TUNDRA which apparently you can reset, I did find and post a USA site doing genuine toyota TPMs at $30 compared to over £100 here, if enough members got there heads together maybe you could bulk buy or share shipping costs Stew

[shcm]

.....and from what i understand the Rav4 is unique in that you cannot reset the Tpms there is a method on an American site but this refers to a TUNDRA which apparently you can reset, I did find and post a USA site doing genuine toyota TPMs at $30 compared to over £100 here, if enough members got there heads together maybe you could bulk buy or share shipping costs Stew

That's what I'm getting at Stew. I'm fairly confident the solution is a 1p resistor and a little bit of harness modification. You can improve on what I've posted above and make it all switchable (enable/disable) quite easily. Cost easily under £5 (most of that for a switch). It is a paper exercise, because I don't have access to a T180 that I can pull apart to check, so it may not be that simple, but all the info on the system points that way.

Still, not my problem either.................