Diesel Problems

[Brookfie 2241]

Can anybody help me please? My RAV 4 (2007) started behaving badly last Saturday after filling it up with a tank full of diesel at my local Morrison's. The car was driving as normal when all of a sudden it began to miss (just as if I was about to run out of fuel). I kept going but had absolutely no power whatsoever and could not get it above 2thousand revs. I took it to Toyota who informed me that the diesel was probably freezing in the fuel lines and it was not something they could deal with. Given that we had temps of -17.5 in Norfolk; I thought this would be a feasible explanation. However, the problem persisted even when the temp rose to +3. The car has been back 5 times. Each time they give me another explanation but the problem persists; the last attempt to sort it out resulted in a bill of £73 for a valve that had apparently been carboned up.

So Christmas morning I drove to work in a happy car; Christmas evening coming home, the problem returned. This morning I found that the car struggled to get up a slight hill (we don't have HILLS in Norfolk!) and although my foot was to the floor, it appeared to be some kind of fuel starvation.

I am but a simple lady but to my mind the following is going on:

1. The pump that lifts the fuel (if there is one) has either gone away for Christmas or is on strike!

2. The turbo has gone with it!

3. The car is having it's christmas hols and has decided to do as little work as possible.

When the car stands or idles, it seems to be ok and you can rev it and it sounds ok. I realise that there is no loading when it is standing but it just gives another little clue to the problem.

So there we have it - I am sitting in my office in work on Boxing Day, 250 miles away from family and don't have a hope in hell of making it up North in my poorly car. Can anyone out there offer some plausible solution cause sure as dam it, Toyota don't have a clue.

Lin

[bothwell_buyer]

welcome to the forum - ideally this section is just to introduce yersel, so its best to post in the RAV4 section. (it says that at the top of the page).

I'd make a simple guess that theres water in Morrisons fuel but then as I never ever buy supermarket fuel, then maybe thats a bit nasty.

I'll ask a moderator to shift your post to the RAV section.

[anchorman]

Hi Lin and welcome to the club.

There are a couple of considerations with this RAV of yours.

You really need to avoid using supermarket fuel if you can - it is doing your car no good. Try at least to use branded fuel but better still high grade fuel. This would be BP Ultra, Shell V-Power of Total Excellium. It costs about anothyer 5p per litre so about another 3 or 4 quid per fill up. I suspect that if cleaning the carboned valve cured it last time then it may well cure it again. The valve is called the EGR (Exhaust Gas Recirculation) valve and is quite easy to clean for somebody with modest abilities so if you know a good local garage, print out the instructions from the pinned section and let them do it. Now if that sticks, the car will go into "limp mode". This is a fail safe mode to protect the engine when it has a fault but it does not cause missing it just significantly limits the power.

If you are absolutely sure it was missing then I would simply have the fuel filter changed. If it has collected even a tiny amount of water then it will cause the fuel to wax up and plug the filter. It shouldn't be expensive to do it at the same time.

Your thought process is good though - very feasible explanations and diagnosis. On this model there is no lift pump

Good luck and keep us informed.

[genterz]

Hi there,

Sounds like an identical problem that we have just had fixed on our 2006 XT4.

Toyota put it down to the water in Sainsburys diesel.

They fitted a new fuel filter (which was probably due anyway) and cleaned out the EGR valve (which I had only done 4 months ago).

Total cost - £199.

All fixed though and running great.

Hope you get it sorted.

[igormus]

Can anybody help me please? My RAV 4 (2007) started behaving badly last Saturday after filling it up with a tank full of diesel at my local Morrison's. The car was driving as normal when all of a sudden it began to miss (just as if I was about to run out of fuel). I kept going but had absolutely no power whatsoever and could not get it above 2thousand revs. I took it to Toyota who informed me that the diesel was probably freezing in the fuel lines and it was not something they could deal with. Given that we had temps of -17.5 in Norfolk; I thought this would be a feasible explanation. However, the problem persisted even when the temp rose to +3. The car has been back 5 times. Each time they give me another explanation but the problem persists; the last attempt to sort it out resulted in a bill of £73 for a valve that had apparently been carboned up.

So Christmas morning I drove to work in a happy car; Christmas evening coming home, the problem returned. This morning I found that the car struggled to get up a slight hill (we don't have HILLS in Norfolk!) and although my foot was to the floor, it appeared to be some kind of fuel starvation.

I am but a simple lady but to my mind the following is going on:

1. The pump that lifts the fuel (if there is one) has either gone away for Christmas or is on strike!

2. The turbo has gone with it!

3. The car is having it's christmas hols and has decided to do as little work as possible.

When the car stands or idles, it seems to be ok and you can rev it and it sounds ok. I realise that there is no loading when it is standing but it just gives another little clue to the problem.

So there we have it - I am sitting in my office in work on Boxing Day, 250 miles away from family and don't have a hope in hell of making it up North in my poorly car. Can anyone out there offer some plausible solution cause sure as dam it, Toyota don't have a clue.

Lin

hello Lin

For sure I agree with other posters -- you should not use supermarket fuel especially in winter. They do sell most likely normal diesel summer type and are not interested to know the issues like this. I doubt whether or not a diesel pre-heater (on the fuel filter cylinder) is available on diesel powered ravs. Normally the diesel can only be primary crystallizated in fuel filter cos of filter element meshes. Normally you have several ways to cure this issue, as follows:

- to pour 3-4 ltr of petrol in the tank (depending on the remainder of diesel in the tank) just to melt the parafine on the initial step and to have your engine alive;

- to change the fuel filter insert;

- to mix bad diesel with normal kerosene (1 ltr of kerosene on 20 ltr of diesel).

For sure that must be done before icy weather coming to prevent either surprise like this you have had.

Good luck/Igor

[GS John]

I've only use supermarket fuel, apart from some Jet fuel a few months ago, and my experience (down to -18 deg C) doesn't support the "supermarket fuel is all bad / no good in winter etc" theories.

[bothwell_buyer]

I've only use supermarket fuel, apart from some Jet fuel a few months ago, and my experience (down to -18 deg C) doesn't support the "supermarket fuel is all bad / no good in winter etc" theories.

I suppose we took the decision to avoid shop fuel as the risks are greater of getting problems.

Both my RAVs are tuned to use Shell VPower and use of a lower octane fuel would blow a hole in the pistons.... so I don't ever take a chance on anyone elses' fuel.

[local hero]

I've only use supermarket fuel, apart from some Jet fuel a few months ago, and my experience (down to -18 deg C) doesn't support the "supermarket fuel is all bad / no good in winter etc" theories.

I only ever use (decent) fuel on my rav sometimes with a squirt of Millers diesel additive in, however my cab gets whatevers cheapest and has now done 200,000mls without any fuel or EGR issues, the difference is my cab is normally running at least 12hrs a day + more, my rav does a lot of standing around.. Stew

[bothwell_buyer]

I've only use supermarket fuel, apart from some Jet fuel a few months ago, and my experience (down to -18 deg C) doesn't support the "supermarket fuel is all bad / no good in winter etc" theories.

I only ever use (decent) fuel on my rav sometimes with a squirt of Millers diesel additive in, however my cab gets whatevers cheapest and has now done 200,000mls without any fuel or EGR issues, the difference is my cab is normally running at least 12hrs a day + more, my rav does a lot of standing around.. Stew

Theres me thinking cabs ran on cow dungs methane gas !

What does the Millers diesel additive do? Wunner if it would be good for the 6 litre generators lump?

[GS John]

I've only use supermarket fuel, apart from some Jet fuel a few months ago, and my experience (down to -18 deg C) doesn't support the "supermarket fuel is all bad / no good in winter etc" theories.

I only ever use (decent) fuel on my rav sometimes with a squirt of Millers diesel additive in, however my cab gets whatevers cheapest and has now done 200,000mls without any fuel or EGR issues, the difference is my cab is normally running at least 12hrs a day + more, my rav does a lot of standing around.. Stew

Theres me thinking cabs ran on cow dungs methane gas !

What does the Millers diesel additive do? Wunner if it would be good for the 6 litre generators lump?

This might be the stuff: http://www.millersoils.net/1_Millers_frame_COMMERCIAL.htm

Not so sure about the fungal problems, that tends to happen on aircraft where the water separates out of the fuel and the fungus grows on the joint. AFAIK cars get bounced around so much (compared to aircraft) on the tracks we call "roads" that it isn't so much of a problem. But then biodiesel is a relatively new phenomenon.

[local hero]

I've only use supermarket fuel, apart from some Jet fuel a few months ago, and my experience (down to -18 deg C) doesn't support the "supermarket fuel is all bad / no good in winter etc" theories.

I only ever use (decent) fuel on my rav sometimes with a squirt of Millers diesel additive in, however my cab gets whatevers cheapest and has now done 200,000mls without any fuel or EGR issues, the difference is my cab is normally running at least 12hrs a day + more, my rav does a lot of standing around.. Stew

Theres me thinking cabs ran on cow dungs methane gas !

What does the Millers diesel additive do? Wunner if it would be good for the 6 litre generators lump?

This might be the stuff: http://www.millersoils.net/1_Millers_frame_COMMERCIAL.htm

Not so sure about the fungal problems, that tends to happen on aircraft where the water separates out of the fuel and the fungus grows on the joint. AFAIK cars get bounced around so much (compared to aircraft) on the tracks we call "roads" that it isn't so much of a problem. But then biodiesel is a relatively new phenomenon.

This is what i use, not really noticed a difference, but I haven't cleaned my EGR yet Stew,, Link click on diesel power ecomax for details

[Sooty torques]

Surprised to hear that supermarket fuel is not recommended for RAV4's...? Have owned and driven SEAT Leon TDI's (last was a 170BHP FR beast...) for the past 9 years with no problems using a mix of fuesl, most usually from various supermarkets - but I am also a fan of the odd regular-ish splash of Millers so maybe this explains all. There have been and are some horror stories about s'market fuels but around here finding anything BUT s'market fuel is very difficult without a long journey.

[local hero]

Surprised to hear that supermarket fuel is not recommended for RAV4's...? Have owned and driven SEAT Leon TDI's (last was a 170BHP FR beast...) for the past 9 years with no problems using a mix of fuesl, most usually from various supermarkets - but I am also a fan of the odd regular-ish splash of Millers so maybe this explains all. There have been and are some horror stories about s'market fuels but around here finding anything BUT s'market fuel is very difficult without a long journey.

I don't believe Toyota or any other car manufacturer would ever say that supermarket fuels are NOT reccomended, however quite a few members on here believe that they are inferior quality, personally i have never noticed a difference, maybe a very very slight difference between std diesel + ultimate, v-power etc, i feel sure somebody myst have researched whether there are any actual benefits or not.. Stew

[Sooty torques]

Sorry, my comment about supermarket fuels not being recommended was a reflection of the posts so far against the use of such fuels.

In the 7 years that I've been a member of the seatcupra.net forums there have been umpteen discussions and 'trials' of the various diesel fuels available plus folks' ideas on whether additives such as Redex, Millers, Wynns, etc. etc. really make any difference. In general most folks agreed on there that even on the much higher stressed and tuned VAG engines there was little difference between using supermarket fuels and the exotic offerings from Shell and BP. Which? mag came to the conclusion the additives such as Millers gave no increase in *performance* & *mpg* but didn't mention whether there was any benefit from a cleaner system / injectors / lubrication of the pump / etc.

Esso diesel fuel is the only non-supermarket fuel I can get without travelling miles out of my way.

Either way, the odd regular splash of Millers and the occasional bottle of some injector / system cleaner never did any of my derv lumps any harm, AFAIK. :)

[local hero]

Sorry, my comment about supermarket fuels not being recommended was a reflection of the posts so far against the use of such fuels.

In the 7 years that I've been a member of the seatcupra.net forums there have been umpteen discussions and 'trials' of the various diesel fuels available plus folks' ideas on whether additives such as Redex, Millers, Wynns, etc. etc. really make any difference. In general most folks agreed on there that even on the much higher stressed and tuned VAG engines there was little difference between using supermarket fuels and the exotic offerings from Shell and BP. Which? mag came to the conclusion the additives such as Millers gave no increase in *performance* & *mpg* but didn't mention whether there was any benefit from a cleaner system / injectors / lubrication of the pump / etc.

Esso diesel fuel is the only non-supermarket fuel I can get without travelling miles out of my way.

Either way, the odd regular splash of Millers and the occasional bottle of some injector / system cleaner never did any of my derv lumps any harm, AFAIK. :)

My, apologies I did not want you to think that supermarket fuels were officialy not reccomended, It is rightly or wrongly the opinion of some members that they are inferior, like you i cannot find any actual proof that there is any difference, however i run my Rav 6000mls a year on better fuel, and my cab, 60,000 mls a year on whatevers cheapest Stew

[bothwell_buyer]

All comes down to the engine perhaps. Oil-burning lumps seem to be more fickle than they used to be.

I do notice a difference using vpower petrol, but then I don't ever drink supermarket whisky either. Whats good for me must be good for the car - nothing but the best - hic !

[Sooty torques]

Certainly agree about the fickleness of the new oil-burners. As mush as I loved the grunt and go of my Leon FR 170, the DPF filter was an absolute pain and made the car useless unless you were doing lots of long runs, or drove the car in a very particular manner to stop the filter clogging up - which of course totally trashed any benefit in mpg from having the TDI in the first place. So far I am getting much better mpg from the RAV4.

The wife's '04 1.4 D4D Yaris burns owt - so we put owt in it

[anchorman]

I've only use supermarket fuel, apart from some Jet fuel a few months ago, and my experience (down to -18 deg C) doesn't support the "supermarket fuel is all bad / no good in winter etc" theories.

I only ever use (decent) fuel on my rav sometimes with a squirt of Millers diesel additive in, however my cab gets whatevers cheapest and has now done 200,000mls without any fuel or EGR issues, the difference is my cab is normally running at least 12hrs a day + more, my rav does a lot of standing around.. Stew

Theres me thinking cabs ran on cow dungs methane gas !

What does the Millers diesel additive do? Wunner if it would be good for the 6 litre generators lump?

This might be the stuff: http://www.millersoils.net/1_Millers_frame_COMMERCIAL.htm

Not so sure about the fungal problems, that tends to happen on aircraft where the water separates out of the fuel and the fungus grows on the joint. AFAIK cars get bounced around so much (compared to aircraft) on the tracks we call "roads" that it isn't so much of a problem. But then biodiesel is a relatively new phenomenon.

Is this it???

[Mike JD]

Is this it???

That beer substitute is disgusting, Ancs. You might do better to drink the diesel (allegedly)

Mike D

[Mike JD]

Not so sure about the fungal problems, that tends to happen on aircraft where the water separates out of the fuel and the fungus grows on the joint. AFAIK cars get bounced around so much (compared to aircraft) on the tracks we call "roads" that it isn't so much of a problem. But then biodiesel is a relatively new phenomenon.

Fungal/algae growth can be quite a problem in the marine world for similar reasons. Low use of fuel in sailing boats means that tanks are refuelled rarely and often have plenty of airspace in them for condensation to add to any water in the fuels already. Marine diesel is, in effect, red diesel, itself a relatively crude product, sold from a number of large tanked low turnover suppliers here in the South West and I have known a good few boats that have suffered from water or dirt in the fuel. As you might imagine the consequences of this entering or leaving harbour or in rough weather at sea can be very serious. Fuel problems account for a significant number of RNLI shouts during a year.

However in the many years I owned a gaff cutter with a Yanmar 1GM inboard diesel I always accepted the extra cost and ran it on "road" diesel from what is now Morrisons in Tavistock. Fuel problems were completely absent. Given that a regularly used car will get through a lot more fuel in a year that that little marinised dump truck engine I would be very surprised if there were bugs in the fuel. Most likely any fuel issues would only be water.

Mike D