Finance

[MG Nut]

Hi Guys.

As I have said on here over the pasted couple of weeks, I have had a test drive of an 07 T Spirit, that I want, I asked the dealer to finance it, it now seems to me something is not correct, the first thing the car is £10.994, the dealer is telling me Toyota will only give me finance up to £10.715, weird figure, I would have thought that buying a car from one of their dealers, there would be full finance on it.

Second, I owe a bit still on the car I want to part ex, we/they have settled on £2000, its low, but I think I would have to except it, but I still need £2500 to pay off the old account, I am told Toyota will not do this, so the only other thing I could think of was to take Toyotas finance, (which I was not aware off was £10,715} and take out a second loan to pay off what I owed. I spoke to their accountant a couple of days ago, he said he had worked out the figures and I needed £3500 extra.

Late afternoon yesterday I sat trying to work all this out, I again spoke to him on the telephone, he went on about this that and the other, I agin sat down and worked out the figures not knowning I would only get £10,715 from Toyota, I still cannot things to add up, so I have laid out the figures in an email to him, and am waiting for a reply, something to me is not right,I feel he/they are taking me for a ride.

My intention today is to walk away and get my deposit back, the deal with the salesman was if they could not do the finance I would get the deposit back.

So people what do you think, where has this extra £1000 come from, I think he is having a laugh.

By the way this is a main dealer.

MGnut

[sjrainsford]

If your current car is on finance, you often cant sell it until the finance is paid off.

Also your description isnt that clear. To comment we'd need all the figures. Maybe they're quoting after interest figures?

Perhaps an easier option for yourself would be to have a bank loan? I wouldnt think a Toyota dealer would be taking you for a ride. But you may want to try and get some off that asking price too.

[jont-uk]

When we were looking at buying our 10/11 T-Spirit the Toyota finance was exorbitant - around 10% for a Prius compared to 3% for a Yaris/etc ...

Personal loans can now be had around 7.5% (Nationwide) ... I actually ended getting a car loan through work at 5% !!

Jon

[Chris Dance]

I always thought the finance on the car you are selling has to be settled first.

I do not understand what the salesman is up to but something does not seem correct in the finance deal you have described. I must admit I have never had finance on a car except the first one I ever bought so I am no expert in these matters. I am sure some other person on this forum could give you a better answer.

[RAV4Len]

Feel sure you will lose you deposit :)

If you have a settlement price for your car, have paid a deposit on your next purchase and know the cost

of your new purchase it should be easy enough to spot if the figures do not add up.

If in doubt, walk away, but as stated above, you will lose your deposit :)

[cootuk]

When we bought our T3 the Toyota finance apr was a lot cheaper than bank loans.

The real figures you need:

1. Price of car

2. Amount Toyota will finance after trade in - apr/monthly payments - total cost.

Maybe they limit finance based on a quick credit check?

3. Amount outstanding on old car - are there any early settlement charges, what is total cost of paying that off.

If you do need an extra loan to pay off the old car then maybe they quoted the total loan value plus interest?

[Jolly English Gentleman]

When we were looking at buying our 10/11 T-Spirit the Toyota finance was exorbitant - around 10% for a Prius compared to 3% for a Yaris/etc ...

Personal loans can now be had around 7.5% (Nationwide) ... I actually ended getting a car loan through work at 5% !!

Jon

For anyone with A rated credit history and are not maxed out on credit cards etc and has an old car owned outright I would recommend a loan through the Social lending sites such as Zopa. The main advantage is that you can get a competitive rate which stays fixed but you can make overpayments which reduces the rest of the repayments without penalty. There is a small admin fee that they add to the loan. In my case I borrowed £6800 in March over three years monthly repayment was £189. I sold the old car privately (getting more than a trade in) shortly after buying new one and put the proceeds against the loan paying of £1900 in the first month - I have paid of a further £900 over the last 10 months and my monthy repayment is now down to £90 and I have £2700 outstanding as each regular payment includes an element of capital. I imagine that I will be able to clear the loan in the next 12 months - maybe less. It is not for everyone, but if you can afford the intial monthly repayment quoted and have secure earbings, and anticipate being able to pay off lump sums it is a flexible and probably cheaper way of borrowing the same amount over three years and sticking the proceeds from an old car in an ISA earning a pittance. Maximum loan is £15K.

Downside though if buying from a dealer with what is effective cash (or indeed if you have the cash)is that because they are not getting commission from selling you finance they have less room to maneuver on price.

[MG Nut]

Feel sure you will lose you deposit :)

If you have a settlement price for your car, have paid a deposit on your next purchase and know the cost

of your new purchase it should be easy enough to spot if the figures do not add up.

If in doubt, walk away, but as stated above, you will lose your deposit :)

Hi Thanks

The deal with the salesman was if they could not come up with the finance I would get my deposit back, and they certainly have not come up with a straight deal.

I worked out all the figures as I have said, and its £1000 less than they are asking, there is no problem in paying off the bank loan on the old car, I asked them to add that to the new loan, but they say Touota will not do this, so if I want this car I would have to take out a seperate loan to pay it off, which again it not really a problem, what worries me is the way they have loaded the finance deal, their accountant has only quote figures verbaley, I have nothing in writing from himso, so that is what and how I feel he is trying it on.

MGnut Colin

[Jan&tone]

MG Nut, this sounds a bit iffy to me for some reason....

In June last year we bought the wife's Aygo, Toyota's own pcp setup with her old Suzuki Alto as a p.ex.

Paid normal monthly payments

In September we bought my Prius, using my Gen2 as p.ex.

finance sorted as follows:

My gen2 paid off the Aygo and deposit for the gen3 Prius plus a nice lumpsum cashback

We are paying monthly payments as normal - 3 year pcp deal on the Prius which will finish when we pay the balance in March this year.

This was suggested by the finance manager of our local Mr T shop - not something that we had even thought of!

Not being funny, but is your credit record ok?? that could be the reason they won't lend you the whole amount perhaps....

[MG Nut]

MG Nut, this sounds a bit iffy to me for some reason....

In June last year we bought the wife's Aygo, Toyota's own pcp setup with her old Suzuki Alto as a p.ex.

Paid normal monthly payments

In September we bought my Prius, using my Gen2 as p.ex.

finance sorted as follows:

My gen2 paid off the Aygo and deposit for the gen3 Prius plus a nice lumpsum cashback

We are paying monthly payments as normal - 3 year pcp deal on the Prius which will finish when we pay the balance in March this year.

This was suggested by the finance manager of our local Mr T shop - not something that we had even thought of!

Not being funny, but is your credit record ok?? that could be the reason they won't lend you the whole amount perhaps....

Hi

Thanks for the email, my credit is A1, my bank will finance the car if I want, but on a quick quote from them when I asked for a settlement figure their interest rate was over the top, that is why I asked the Toyota dealer about the deal, there is something very iffy about what I have been offered, also why has their accountant not answered my email, I set out the figures as he told me,I have had nothing in writing from him, I could not get them to add up, in fact £1000 out towards them, I just asked him where I had gone wrong on my figures, nothing from them. I have sent two emails to the sales man this morning, stating I am walking away for this so called deal and expect my deposit back as was promised from him if they could not provide the finance.

MGnut

[Jan&tone]

noted your reaction, I think mine would have been the same.

it's strange really, 'cos the dealership gets a kickback from the finance company which is Toyota Personal Finance so you would imagine the more that you borrowed the better the dealer would like it!

Let us all know the final outcome please

[johalareewi]

Have you tried a comparative finance quote online at the toyota.co.uk website?

Go to the used car section, find the car you are interested in and click the finance quote option. You can then do 'what if' scenarios with different deposits and payment periods.

Seems a bit dodgy if the finance guy won't put anything in writing or discuss things with you.

According to website...

Model:

Toyota Prius 1.5 Hybrid 5-Dr

Cash price: £10,995

Finance calculation

This is a straightforward financing method whereby your repayments are fixed for the period of the agreement. There is no large final payment, and at the end of your agreement, providing the terms have been met, pay the option to purchase fee and the vehicle is yours.

Acceptance fee

This is a fee built into your first payment that covers the administrative costs for setting up your agreement with Toyota Financial Services.

Option to purchase fee

This is the nominal fee that you pay at the end of the agreement if you choose the option to keep the car. It covers the administrative costs of closing the agreement and transferring the legal title of the vehicle to you.

Finance calculation

Repayment term: 24 month term

Cash price: £10,995.00

Deposit £0.00

Amount of credit: £10,995.00

1st monthly payment £503.73

Next 23 monthly payments £503.73

Option to purchase fee: £100.00

Total amount payable: £12,189.52

So the website will allow a no deposit purchase on Toyota Finance. Not sure why the dealer can't do this.

[MG Nut]

Have you tried a comparative finance quote online at the toyota.co.uk website?

Go to the used car section, find the car you are interested in and click the finance quote option. You can then do 'what if' scenarios with different deposits and payment periods.

Seems a bit dodgy if the finance guy won't put anything in writing or discuss things with you.

According to website...

Model:

Toyota Prius 1.5 Hybrid 5-Dr

Cash price: £10,995

Finance calculation

This is a straightforward financing method whereby your repayments are fixed for the period of the agreement. There is no large final payment, and at the end of your agreement, providing the terms have been met, pay the option to purchase fee and the vehicle is yours.

Acceptance fee

This is a fee built into your first payment that covers the administrative costs for setting up your agreement with Toyota Financial Services.

Option to purchase fee

This is the nominal fee that you pay at the end of the agreement if you choose the option to keep the car. It covers the administrative costs of closing the agreement and transferring the legal title of the vehicle to you.

Finance calculation

Repayment term: 24 month term

Cash price: £10,995.00

Deposit £0.00

Amount of credit: £10,995.00

1st monthly payment £503.73

Next 23 monthly payments £503.73

Option to purchase fee: £100.00

Total amount payable: £12,189.52

So the website will allow a no deposit purchase on Toyota Finance. Not sure why the dealer can't do this.

Hi

Thank you I will try that, I have just put in a call to the princible/genral manager of the dealership. told he is in a meeting, they said they would get him to call me,

I will see what he has to say, if he calls me.

MGnut Colin

[MG Nut]

Have you tried a comparative finance quote online at the toyota.co.uk website?

Go to the used car section, find the car you are interested in and click the finance quote option. You can then do 'what if' scenarios with different deposits and payment periods.

Seems a bit dodgy if the finance guy won't put anything in writing or discuss things with you.

According to website...

Model:

Toyota Prius 1.5 Hybrid 5-Dr

Cash price: £10,995

Finance calculation

This is a straightforward financing method whereby your repayments are fixed for the period of the agreement. There is no large final payment, and at the end of your agreement, providing the terms have been met, pay the option to purchase fee and the vehicle is yours.

Acceptance fee

This is a fee built into your first payment that covers the administrative costs for setting up your agreement with Toyota Financial Services.

Option to purchase fee

This is the nominal fee that you pay at the end of the agreement if you choose the option to keep the car. It covers the administrative costs of closing the agreement and transferring the legal title of the vehicle to you.

Finance calculation

Repayment term: 24 month term

Cash price: £10,995.00

Deposit £0.00

Amount of credit: £10,995.00

1st monthly payment £503.73

Next 23 monthly payments £503.73

Option to purchase fee: £100.00

Total amount payable: £12,189.52

So the website will allow a no deposit purchase on Toyota Finance. Not sure why the dealer can't do this.

Hi

Thank you I will try that, I have just put in a call to the princible/genral manager of the dealership. told he is in a meeting, they said they would get him to call me,

I will see what he has to say, if he calls me.

MGnut Colin

Hi All

Ok I have spoken to the Genral Manager at the dealers, and told him of my concern over the deal I have been offered, he could understand it either, I also told him I would have expected an answer to my email, and that I had sent my figures to their account dept. leave it with me he said, I told him I was sorry for the inquiry, but I do not like things I do not understand.

I will get back to you he said sure enough ten minutes later, he was back on to me, it seems where the extra cost has come from is the sales guy had added paint protection @£399 & gap @£399 so thats £800, I told the guy I did not order either, he then said its on the sheet, I told him the sales guy was throwing these in, some how I was getting charged with them, I said to him if I had had an answer to my email, this ***** up would not have happened,ok he said I will get the accountant to call you, some five minutes later I had a call from the sales guy, I told him I had sent an email to the accountant vie him he told me had got it but could not open it, you have thought he would have telephoned me 2 days ago, I said I had sent him two more emails today one this morning and another this afternoon, he tells me he got the first one, funny its not showing in my sent box, I again explained why I was getting upset about the deal, I told him I do not like things I do not understand, so an answer to an email or a telephone call would have saved all this. as I could not get the sales guy today on email I sent him a recored delivery letter, so he will get that, it doubles what I said on the email that I was walking away from the deal, when I spoke to the GM I told him I had sent this, he told he would have also been

upset with not getting answers, so I will now have to take a deep breath and think about what to do.

Sorry if this saga has been boring, but I like things in black and white where money in concerned.

MGnut Colin

[Chris Dance]

Colin your SAGA is far from boring and proves you have to be very careful when you deal with salesman. From what you say the GM seems to want to get things sorted out. So I hope you get the car and the finance gets sorted.

[MG Nut]

HI

Thank you for your thoughts and time, taking the trouble to send me them. I am still a bit Shell shocked over it all, if only someone had answered my emails all would have been sorted two days ago, I have this afternoon spoken to the GM as I said the salesman, and would you believe the accountant, all very nice with no problems, so now I will decided what to do, as I really want the car, thats down to all you guys with your reports etc,I have read all 58 pages on this site and a lot on the Priuschat site.

Yours very sincerely MGnut Colin

[cootuk]

Well done for checking everything - I guess a lot of people just sign things then have regrets later.

Maybe the sales guy was a bit short on his targets and tried it on hoping you wouldn't notice, or be too shy/embarassed to ask?

[r04drunner1]

Colin

This thread is definitely not boring, it's a useful discussion. I feel for you, going through this.

Not sure if you are going PCP or HP (Hire Purchase) with the dealer? PCP is a car lease, which means at the end of the lease you can return the car and walk away. HP means that you own the car... eventually. The "gotcha" you should watch out for is that, legally, if you have outstanding finance on a car then you cannot sell it as the goods do not belong to you.

This caught me out when I bought my last car a year and a half ago. I too have A1 credit history. My bank offered me a loan at 7.9% but then wanted an arrangement fee, which came as an unpleasant surprise. The dealer offered me finance at 7.8% so I went with them... only to discover too late that <a> they also charged an arrangement fee (although less) and <b> with the dealer finance the loan was linked to the car. Thus I could not sell it. (In theory... in practice there are ways around that, which I will come to in a moment.)

The beauty of a bank loan is that it is an UNSECURED loan i.e. you own the car from day one. You are free to sell it or trade it in against another car or do anything you want with it, really: as long as you keep repaying the loan to the bank you are OK. If you have a bank loan and do get rid of the car, either by selling it or trading it in, you CAN if you want simply pay off the outstanding loan to the bank in one lump sum. The bank will give you a discount for doing that i.e. you won't have to pay all the interest you would otherwise have paid.

(On some loans there is a settlement fee to be paid if you pay off the finance early, so if you do want to pay off the loan you have to balance that settlement fee against the interest you are saving.)

In my case, I wanted to sell my car privately so that I could move to a company car (the Prius). I spoke to the finance house owning the loan, they said they were happy for me to do that as long as they got a cheque to clear the loan in good time. Usually the way to work it is for the new buyer to simply pay the finance house the amount to clear off the loan. You then take the balance in cash.

So for example, suppose you owed £7k on a car loan and sold the car to a new owner for £10k.

The new owner would pay the finance house the £7k and pay you the £3k. Everybody is happy.

You can also work it that the new owner simply pays you the £10k and you then pay off the finance house the £7k. However that is risky for the new owner as in theory you could vanish with the cash and the finance company could then reclaim the car from them.

The key thing is to be OPEN AND UP FRONT AND HONEST in the whole thing. So when a potential buyer came to view my car, I took him for the test drive then went over the figures with him. I showed him the loan still outstanding and the outline figure the finance company had said should be paid off. I gave him contact details he could follow up with the finance company himself if he wanted. I also showed him a copy of the HPI report, which showed that the car was "clean" apart from the outstanding finance. I offered him a sale contract which had a condition in it that I paid off the finance. (So if I didn't do that, he could come after me for breach of contract.) He was more than happy and the deal went through OK. I used his money to pay off the finance and the rest went into some home improvements! Everybody was happy.

However I do wish I had gone down the bank loan route. An unsecured loan would have made life so much easier.

Stick to your guns mate, and remember you are the customer here. Play off the GM against the salesman and the finance guy and you should be OK.

HTH

R04drunner1

[Parts-King]

Ive read and re-read this. With HP you DONT own the car, the finance company does until you have met your liabilities and paid the loan.(I'm paraphrasing here because once you have paid so many installments things change a bit) You cannot sell it (legally) until the finance is paid off, so getting into private arrangements as to who pays what and at what stage is very iffy, if one or the other party is dodgy then you end up losing the car and cash!

Kingo

[kithmo]

Ive read and re-read this. With HP you DONT own the car, the finance company does until you have met your liabilities and paid the loan.(I'm paraphrasing here because once you have paid so many installments things change a bit) You cannot sell it (legally) until the finance is paid off, so getting into private arrangements as to who pays what and at what stage is very iffy, if one or the other party is dodgy then you end up losing the car and cash!

Kingo

The only advantage of HP is that if you lose your job and can't afford the car payments, but you have paid half the payments, you can hand the car back to the finance company and walk away owing nothing (but having lost all the moneys paid).

I personally have always used a bank loan because in the same situation as above you are able to sell the car, pay off the loan and may still have some money left.

These days with high interest rates on loans but low interest rates on savings, you may as well use any savings you have towards the purchase as well rather than sitting in the bank feeding the rich bankers bonuses (8% loans, 2% on savings = 6% feeding the vultures).

[r04drunner1]

Ive read and re-read this. With HP you DONT own the car, the finance company does until you have met your liabilities and paid the loan.

I agree. When I said "eventually" I meant once you have paid off the whole loan. Sorry for being unclear. I had to leave the house in a hurry and didn't get time to review my post for clarity! Thanks for clarifying that point.

The arrangements I mention were not private, they were with the full knowledge and participation of the finance company. They were very pragmatic and helpful. I suggested to the buyer that HE pay off the finance company and give me the balance, that way he would know he had "clear title" to the vehicle. As it turned out, we had mutually established a high level of trust so he was willing to pay me money so that I could clear the finance. I also drew up a sales contract that stipulated this as the vendor's responsibility, so if I had reneged he could have sued me for breach of contract as well as the cash plus any other damages.

I totally agree with other posts, if you need finance to buy a car then the best route to go is an unsecured loan (from a bank or from Zopa or wherever), that way you have title to the vehicle and can legally sell it or trade it in.

[MG Nut]

Hi Guys

Thank you for all your comments, my Jaguar is on a personnal bank loan, there is no problem selling the car and paying off the remaining debt, they ask if I was buying another car, yes that is correct I told the guy, can I do a quote for you he asked, well yes I said, I must admit I was only have listening, as I had decided to go with the Toyota deal, enough said on that score,but when I work out the figures later it was way over the top for me, got the problem sorted out with Toyota, which would have been sorted earlier had they answered my emails,any way after paying off the jaguar debt, I need £3000 approx to cover the deal, so I go back to the bank that wanted to finance the whole deal, told them I would be settling the jaguar debt Monday or Tuesday, thats fine he told me, but can you do me a small loan of £3000, just a minute I waited, he came back to me to say sorry we cannot even look a loan, as the rules now say you must have £700 a month going into your account other wise we will not look at a loan, new rules he told me, I asked how I was quoted for the full amount last week, all I can say he said was who ever you spoke to had got it wrong.

So having been with the bank since 1978, finance most of my cars with them 6 or 7 they pull this stunt, the reason I do not have this amount going into this account is I made a change of bank for my main account due to a move to France, that so far has not come off.

So my friends, its all off, I have chased this about now for over two weeks, and frankley I have had it, so I will keep my trusty XJ8, for at leased another year, then maybe look at it again, whether the problem is my age and the fact that I am retired maybe making a differance, just another point might be of interest, for the old guys on this site, I spoke to another company about loans, the girl there told me unless you have £15,000 a year going into your account they are not interest.

So all I can say is thanks for your help and advice, I will join you again maybe later this year.

MGnut Colin

[r04drunner1]

Colin mate,

Gutted for you. You've been through a lot in the last couple of weeks.

I applaud your decision by the way. It shows you have the ability to step back, take a deep breath and take a level headed look at the situation. Once the decision has been made to buy a car, so many people get "blinkers" on and set their heart on getting that car come what may. I honestly think some dealers rely on that, which is why things get more complicated as they load the deal up with hidden extras and complications once you have made the decision to buy the car.

I loved my Jaguars before, for mainly economic reasons, I moved to the Prius. So at least having an XJ8 as a fall back position is not too bad. (I know a good forum for Jaguar owners by the way... )

The problem with banks is often that lending decisions are made over the phone or Internet using raw criteria that do not reflect the reality of the situation. The personal touch is so often missing. In your case, for example, on a personal basis they should have signed off the loan like a shot. Your character and track record would had stood for you, and they would have considered all avenues of income not just your main account. However the dry rules, which I assume have been brought in as a result of the credit crunch and the public outcry against irresponsible lending, meant that on paper your case did not tick all the boxes; hence no loan.

For the last personal loan (from my own bank) that I took out for a car, I insisted on meeting up in person with an adviser from my home branch. I was then able to explain the full situation to her. In my case, there were complicating factors: I was starting a new job AND coming from a company car to a car allowance so had minimal deposit AND I was using my credit card in a slightly unusual way. On paper these would have resulted in my loan being refused; but with documentation and a person-to-person chat it all got sorted.

After you have had opportunity to pause for thought, I surely hope you find another way to get to the right car for you.

Best wishes

R04drunner1

[MG Nut]

Colin mate,

Gutted for you. You've been through a lot in the last couple of weeks.

I applaud your decision by the way. It shows you have the ability to step back, take a deep breath and take a level headed look at the situation. Once the decision has been made to buy a car, so many people get "blinkers" on and set their heart on getting that car come what may. I honestly think some dealers rely on that, which is why things get more complicated as they load the deal up with hidden extras and complications once you have made the decision to buy the car.

I loved my Jaguars before, for mainly economic reasons, I moved to the Prius. So at least having an XJ8 as a fall back position is not too bad. (I know a good forum for Jaguar owners by the way... )

The problem with banks is often that lending decisions are made over the phone or Internet using raw criteria that do not reflect the reality of the situation. The personal touch is so often missing. In your case, for example, on a personal basis they should have signed off the loan like a shot. Your character and track record would had stood for you, and they would have considered all avenues of income not just your main account. However the dry rules, which I assume have been brought in as a result of the credit crunch and the public outcry against irresponsible lending, meant that on paper your case did not tick all the boxes; hence no loan.

For the last personal loan (from my own bank) that I took out for a car, I insisted on meeting up in person with an adviser from my home branch. I was then able to explain the full situation to her. In my case, there were complicating factors: I was starting a new job AND coming from a company car to a car allowance so had minimal deposit AND I was using my credit card in a slightly unusual way. On paper these would have resulted in my loan being refused; but with documentation and a person-to-person chat it all got sorted.

After you have had opportunity to pause for thought, I surely hope you find another way to get to the right car for you.

Best wishes

R04drunner1

Hi RO4drunner1

Hi MATE

Thanks for your thoughts, and agree with what you are saying, but it seems to me when you get to a certain age, you are treeted like a leper, and the institusions do not what to know you, they seem to think we are only here to make up time, and take all the C**p they can issuse us with.

Kind Regards MGnut Colin

[r04drunner1]

Hi RO4drunner1

Hi MATE

Thanks for your thoughts, and agree with what you are saying, but it seems to me when you get to a certain age, you are treeted like a leper, and the institusions do not what to know you, they seem to think we are only here to make up time, and take all the C**p they can issuse us with.

Kind Regards MGnut Colin

Don't let the bar stewards get you down.

All the same, your experience is a warning to anybody nearing retirement. Cash is king seems to be the motto!

I can quite understand why the HPI or PCP route will be more attractive for you: because it is secured against the car, the lender has fewer concerns about credit rating especially if you have a substantial deposit. (Translation: if it goes pear shaped , they think that they can get their money back off you in the shape of the car ;) .)

There may be alternative routes to getting finance. I was going to suggest ZOPA but I checked before I wrote this and there are mixed reviews. Bad in the USA, good in UK. The thing to watch out for is that if you do apply for credit with them, they run a search on your credit history and it will be logged. :o If they turn you down, that credit history search could be a black mark for you against you getting credit elsewhere.

You might want to get a copy of your credit report from Experian or Equifax, just to see what your rating is. if you have a clean record and a good score, that can be a good argument to use with a salesman in the future in order to convince them that you can have a loan (and preferably not one lumbered with a grand of excessive cost ).

R04drunner1