Rattling When Hot - D-4D

[Various]

Newbie here, just getting ready to sell on my 115,000 mile Avensis 2.0 D-4D Colour Collection and wanted to know whether this is a problem or not....

Imagine driving over 100 motorway miles in one go (which I do very frequently), then leaving the motorway and stopping on the slip road before accelerating away (bear with me) - when I accelerate hard above 3,000 rpm in these conditions there is a rattle which sounds like it is from the engine and at roughly engine speed, a bit like a camshaft noise, or 'pinking'. It sounds like it's coming from just in front of me (driver) at about steering wheel height (but in the engine bay). It doesn't always do this in these conditions, and never when the engine is not very hot, it has also been doing it for about 50,000miles but nothing has gone bang and no warning lights. Otherwise, the car's brilliant, no trouble at all, hardly uses oil, never uses water etc. It might be a bit worse when the car is fully loaded or going uphill.

Should I worry before selling the car?

Any advice would be appreciated, I wouldn't like to buy a car with a problem so I don't want to sell one either!

[Big Kev]

My reasons for admiring your posting are various, Various. Your honesty in not wanting to sell someone a "pup" is to be applauded, but going by the mileage of your vehicle and the sound you describe, it sounds to me that one or more injectors would be responsible for such a "rattle" under your bonnet. I had this problem fixed under warranty in 2009 on my 2006 25k

T3x Avensis 2.2 D4D.

Your patience also knows no bounds in tolerating this noise for 50k miles !!!! I only lasted a few weeks after buying the Avensis with the "rattle", and finely aided by guidance on here from Igor in the Ukraine, got them seen to. Hard to "diagnose over the forum" but your description is very accurately describing the symptoms of injectori knackeredibus.(copyright disease)

DON'T EVEN ASK how much they are to replace.....and don't sell to yer best pal in case I'm correct.

Let me know if I'm wrong.....everybody else does.....

Big Kev AND FORGIVE MANNERS....WELCOME ABOARD YE OLDE TOYOTA CLUB.

[Various]

Thanks for the reply and the welcome Big Kev, I'm delighted that you have suggested a known problem and disappointed that you didn't recognise it as an empty washer bottle or something else very, very cheap!

However, the car really owes me nothing so I'd like to explore a way of getting it checked out thoroughly and sorted if possible (this side of another mortgage). Like anybody, I've got the choice of selling it cheap into the trade or at normal private market price, there's a few quid difference between the two prices so it might stack up, and I'd rather know that somebody's new pride and joy will be what they hoped for.

Is this something that will show up for definite on a diagnostic check even if there are no lights flashing anywhere? Experience has taught me to be wary of main dealers, so how did you diagnose yours (did Igor teach you a trick of the trade?).

The reason I've been able to live with it is that it's not an issue at motorway speeds and I find that that there's not much point revving the engine much anyway, so I normally change gear between 2-3000rpm.

[Big Kev]

Thanks for the reply and the welcome Big Kev, I'm delighted that you have suggested a known problem and disappointed that you didn't recognise it as an empty washer bottle or something else very, very cheap!

However, the car really owes me nothing so I'd like to explore a way of getting it checked out thoroughly and sorted if possible (this side of another mortgage). Like anybody, I've got the choice of selling it cheap into the trade or at normal private market price, there's a few quid difference between the two prices so it might stack up, and I'd rather know that somebody's new pride and joy will be what they hoped for.

Is this something that will show up for definite on a diagnostic check even if there are no lights flashing anywhere? Experience has taught me to be wary of main dealers, so how did you diagnose yours (did Igor teach you a trick of the trade?).

The reason I've been able to live with it is that it's not an issue at motorway speeds and I find that that there's not much point revving the engine much anyway, so I normally change gear between 2-3000rpm.

Somebody should be along in the not too distant with a reply re best method to have them checked. I am not sure if the indes have the correct kit for diagnosing the injectors, which back in 2009 were about £1200.00 per set of 4....you may need only one....you may have a rattley screenwash bottle. I tell you the price only to forewarn you they are not cheap. Hang on until your fellow countrymen get in from "mortgage hour" down the pub....

Big Kev

[Various]

I've never been big on using the little yellow faces on posts, but now seems like a good time to start...

:o

[Sam29]

Igor is champion and may tell you different ways of doing it.

Well for DIY sort of side, I would like to add my bit, you can take it to local garage and ask them to check it for you.

Or there is special instrument (made and sell in USA, and you can get it from eBay.com). See the video of it

or another way of checking it

And dont forget to share your experience and outcomes.

Cheers.

Sam

[igormus]

Newbie here, just getting ready to sell on my 115,000 mile Avensis 2.0 D-4D Colour Collection and wanted to know whether this is a problem or not....

Imagine driving over 100 motorway miles in one go (which I do very frequently), then leaving the motorway and stopping on the slip road before accelerating away (bear with me) - when I accelerate hard above 3,000 rpm in these conditions there is a rattle which sounds like it is from the engine and at roughly engine speed, a bit like a camshaft noise, or 'pinking'. It sounds like it's coming from just in front of me (driver) at about steering wheel height (but in the engine bay). It doesn't always do this in these conditions, and never when the engine is not very hot, it has also been doing it for about 50,000miles but nothing has gone bang and no warning lights. Otherwise, the car's brilliant, no trouble at all, hardly uses oil, never uses water etc. It might be a bit worse when the car is fully loaded or going uphill.

Should I worry before selling the car?

Any advice would be appreciated, I wouldn't like to buy a car with a problem so I don't want to sell one either!

hi MATEY and others

SAM has input links how to test petrol injectors, but diesel injectors test is being carried out using another fuel stand. A bit of theory - as was reported so many times the diesel is being ignited by compressed heated air inside of cylinder and 5-12 degrees before top dead center (TDC)--what does it mean -- once the piston reaches (5-12 degrees before TDC) the ECU gives a signal to respective injector solenoid and thanks to the lifting force created in the solenoid-- the same releases a needle valve inside --> leading to sharp injection and it is because the fuel pump maintains constant fuel pressure inside the common rail (abt 1000 bars) OK -- now abt ignition process --- the engine power depends on the diesel portion injected as per current load. When both injection and turbocharger operation are in order then you can hear normal diesel noise but when each (or several)injector injects more diesel quantity inside then this is called "over fueling"-- that is confirmed by the RATTLE noise you have. WHy does it happen?? Each injector consists of: body; solenoid; loading spring; loading push rod; needle valve (consisting of body and the needle itself)--> sorry for too many info but in order to understand what is going wrong each one must to read it. Each needle valve has own life time like human --> the sulfur contained in the diesel affects sealing zone (called sealing circle)+ repeatedly needle kicking against the seat in the body increases this contact sealing circuit ---what then ??? as per physics law -- the more contact the less pressure ---> the less pressure the less sealing properties if this internal pair (needle+seat)---> now it is clear understood what is then ---- each cylinder gets more fuel then designed (!!!)--this over fueling creates a hammering (rattle) noise. Thus -- each injector must be inspected and pressure tested on special fuel stand -- this stand is simulator of those equipment like under the bonet. More over when repeatedly tested the operator can see a real injection portion and can compare it with designed rate. If this real quantity (per some time)is more thenb the needle valve must be changed on new one. That is all mate -- no way back -- yes this pair might be grinded/polished having used sppecial paste No250 (green colour)but this is only for 3-4 monthes depending what diesel do you normally buy.

Cheers/Igor

[Various]

Wow! I am very impressed by the response from you guys - it is very much appreciated.

So, my understanding is that one or more injectors are worn and over-fuelling which creates the rattle in the engine. To go forward from here I need to get the injectors checked by a diesel professional, so is it time to go to the Toyota dealer (normally a bad & expensive experience for me) or does anybody know somebody independant in the East Midlands area who could help?

Also, does anybody know whether injectors can be bought as non-genuine items? i.e. aftermarket parts (my brother supplies parts from a motor factor so he might be able to sort something out if it is not a genuine Toyota part - but he'd need a brand or something to look for).

Thanks again.

[igormus]

Wow! I am very impressed by the response from you guys - it is very much appreciated.

So, my understanding is that one or more injectors are worn and over-fuelling which creates the rattle in the engine. To go forward from here I need to get the injectors checked by a diesel professional, so is it time to go to the Toyota dealer (normally a bad & expensive experience for me) or does anybody know somebody independant in the East Midlands area who could help?

Also, does anybody know whether injectors can be bought as non-genuine items? i.e. aftermarket parts (my brother supplies parts from a motor factor so he might be able to sort something out if it is not a genuine Toyota part - but he'd need a brand or something to look for).

Thanks again.

hi again

Mr Parts King is yr jife boat - so please contact him + he offers special discount for TOC members.

Goood luck !! Igor

[Big Kev]

Newbie here, just getting ready to sell on my 115,000 mile Avensis 2.0 D-4D Colour Collection and wanted to know whether this is a problem or not....

Imagine driving over 100 motorway miles in one go (which I do very frequently), then leaving the motorway and stopping on the slip road before accelerating away (bear with me) - when I accelerate hard above 3,000 rpm in these conditions there is a rattle which sounds like it is from the engine and at roughly engine speed, a bit like a camshaft noise, or 'pinking'. It sounds like it's coming from just in front of me (driver) at about steering wheel height (but in the engine bay). It doesn't always do this in these conditions, and never when the engine is not very hot, it has also been doing it for about 50,000miles but nothing has gone bang and no warning lights. Otherwise, the car's brilliant, no trouble at all, hardly uses oil, never uses water etc. It might be a bit worse when the car is fully loaded or going uphill.

Should I worry before selling the car?

Any advice would be appreciated, I wouldn't like to buy a car with a problem so I don't want to sell one either!

hi MATEY and others

SAM has input links how to test petrol injectors, but diesel injectors test is being carried out using another fuel stand. A bit of theory - as was reported so many times the diesel is being ignited by compressed heated air inside of cylinder and 5-12 degrees before top dead center (TDC)--what does it mean -- once the piston reaches (5-12 degrees before TDC) the ECU gives a signal to respective injector solenoid and thanks to the lifting force created in the solenoid-- the same releases a needle valve inside --> leading to sharp injection and it is because the fuel pump maintains constant fuel pressure inside the common rail (abt 1000 bars) OK -- now abt ignition process --- the engine power depends on the diesel portion injected as per current load. When both injection and turbocharger operation are in order then you can hear normal diesel noise but when each (or several)injector injects more diesel quantity inside then this is called "over fueling"-- that is confirmed by the RATTLE noise you have. WHy does it happen?? Each injector consists of: body; solenoid; loading spring; loading push rod; needle valve (consisting of body and the needle itself)--> sorry for too many info but in order to understand what is going wrong each one must to read it. Each needle valve has own life time like human --> the sulfur contained in the diesel affects sealing zone (called sealing circle)+ repeatedly needle kicking against the seat in the body increases this contact sealing circuit ---what then ??? as per physics law -- the more contact the less pressure ---> the less pressure the less sealing properties if this internal pair (needle+seat)---> now it is clear understood what is then ---- each cylinder gets more fuel then designed (!!!)--this over fueling creates a hammering (rattle) noise. Thus -- each injector must be inspected and pressure tested on special fuel stand -- this stand is simulator of those equipment like under the bonet. More over when repeatedly tested the operator can see a real injection portion and can compare it with designed rate. If this real quantity (per some time)is more thenb the needle valve must be changed on new one. That is all mate -- no way back -- yes this pair might be grinded/polished having used sppecial paste No250 (green colour)but this is only for 3-4 monthes depending what diesel do you normally buy.

Cheers/Igor

Could not have explained it better myself, Big Chap !!!!! SUPERB

Big Kev

[Thermal]

To add to the above excellent injector mechanics description:

No two injectors are exactly the same from new.

Injectors are manufactured to very high standards, but even then, injectors have a character of their own.

That's why injectors have to be calibrated to the engine cylinder that they are fitted in, using the Intelligent Tester device or equivalent.

In fact, the ECU is programmed such, that each injector injects exactly the same amount of fuel.

The open/close timing per injector can vary significantly.

That's why it's also very important that the injectors are marked (1,2,3,4) and go back into the same cylinder when they have been taken out, for whatever reason.

A new or refurbished injector needs to be calibrated as well.

Putting injectors back in random order (previous owner or careless garage ??) could produce the rattle described here....

[Various]

I've owned the car from new and never done any maintenance myself (apart from weekly stuff), and as far as I'm aware neither the Toyota dealer (for the first 60,000miles) nor the other garage (for the next 50,000 miles) have ever touched the injectors. But I now know that I'm out of my depth with it, so my current plan is to bite the bullet and get it diagnosed properly by the Toyota dealer then make my mind up once I have some real facts about the situation to work with.

Her indoors says I should stop worrying because she never noticed a problem when she drove it!

I'll let you know how I get on.

Thanks again.

[Big Kev]

To add to the above excellent injector mechanics description:

No two injectors are exactly the same from new.

Injectors are manufactured to very high standards, but even then, injectors have a character of their own.

That's why injectors have to be calibrated to the engine cylinder that they are fitted in, using the Intelligent Tester device or equivalent.

In fact, the ECU is programmed such, that each injector injects exactly the same amount of fuel.

The open/close timing per injector can vary significantly.

That's why it's also very important that the injectors are marked (1,2,3,4) and go back into the same cylinder when they have been taken out, for whatever reason.

A new or refurbished injector needs to be calibrated as well.

Putting injectors back in random order (previous owner or careless garage ??) could produce the rattle described here....

Spot on, Thermal....MrT's expression to me was that each replaced injector, which was all 4, had to be "signed in" to the ECU of the fuel system. With a bit of luck, it was me who started the injector "scaremongering", and it maybe IS a noisy screenwash bottle !!!! I would buy a car off this very diligent member....

Big Kev

[Sam29]

With the current climate, where everybody is trying to be green and avoiding wastage of energies, it seems like rattling (wasting extra diesel) is no good to enviroment.

But ignoring that, and ignoring the fact that it will decreased your car MPG, what else it could lead to?

Having a rattling or overfueling...Is there any other harm other than mentioned above?

Just a food for though

[igormus]

With the current climate, where everybody is trying to be green and avoiding wastage of energies, it seems like rattling (wasting extra diesel) is no good to enviroment.

But ignoring that, and ignoring the fact that it will decreased your car MPG, what else it could lead to?

Having a rattling or overfueling...Is there any other harm other than mentioned above?

Just a food for though

Sam hi

the reason of all car faults starts from the aforesaid-- then unburnt carbon starts to cover EGR; Turbo/vanes/vanes axises/Cat converter + finally empty pocket of the owner :(

Cheers/Igor

[Sam29]

With the current climate, where everybody is trying to be green and avoiding wastage of energies, it seems like rattling (wasting extra diesel) is no good to enviroment.

But ignoring that, and ignoring the fact that it will decreased your car MPG, what else it could lead to?

Having a rattling or overfueling...Is there any other harm other than mentioned above?

Just a food for though

Sam hi

the reason of all car faults starts from the aforesaid-- then unburnt carbon starts to cover EGR; Turbo/vanes/vanes axises/Cat converter + finally empty pocket of the owner :(

Cheers/Igor

cheers mate