Balance Motorsport

[geezbeez]

I'm not entirely convinced by some of the claims made by Balance Motorsport.

Exhaust. Theres the standard exhaust, the theres the TTE sport exhaust which makes no claim for extra HP and then theres the exhaust sold by Balance motorsport which claims to uniquely gain additional 6hp?

Coil overs. There are expensive Coil overs from KW and FK 0-30mm drop which are no doubt good but expensive. Then theres Balance Motorsport selling AVO coil overs with 30mm drop front and 25mm drop rear? Why the different drop front and rear? Look on AVO site and I cant see coilovers for Aygo C1 at all? Is this just a coilover kit for a different car which just happens to fit?

On a positive side the Bilstein/APEX combo set which Balance Motorsport sell. They dont make any super claims for this and sell it for what it is. A set of uprated dampers and a set of uprated springs. Not going to be as good as a proper coilover set but affordable and should make an improvement on the stock items.

Comments????

[aygoblue123]

All mods sold on balance motorsport i believe have been trialled and tested on the owners own C1 as proof of performance gains. Also dyno run graph proves performance gain as evidence...

[geezbeez]

Is that C1 owners club or just arbitrary C1 owners?

Dyno shows base 72 hp which seems very good for a C1/Aygo thought stock was 68?

Quote: Original car made 72.9 HP flywheel corrected, with Exhaust HP was up 5.9HP to 78.8HP

What does flywheel corrected mean?, surely its a chassis dyno reading or a flywheel dyno reading.

I thought chassis Dyno readings could vary by 6bhp just by doing the test in different gears.

Theres another site City Bug Store, they sell Remus exhausts and rocspeed disks? Is it not just what one suppliers gets a good deal on against another?

[kav]

hand made....all!

aygo-club.gr!

what is left behind...

bear in mind the word catalyst. some of our members melted them...

[jjj_aygo]

I'm not entirely convinced by some of the claims made by Balance Motorsport.

Exhaust. Theres the standard exhaust, the theres the TTE sport exhaust which makes no claim for extra HP and then theres the exhaust sold by Balance motorsport which claims to uniquely gain additional 6hp?

Coil overs. There are expensive Coil overs from KW and FK 0-30mm drop which are no doubt good but expensive. Then theres Balance Motorsport selling AVO coil overs with 30mm drop front and 25mm drop rear? Why the different drop front and rear? Look on AVO site and I cant see coilovers for Aygo C1 at all? Is this just a coilover kit for a different car which just happens to fit?

On a positive side the Bilstein/APEX combo set which Balance Motorsport sell. They dont make any super claims for this and sell it for what it is. A set of uprated dampers and a set of uprated springs. Not going to be as good as a proper coilover set but affordable and should make an improvement on the stock items.

Comments????

Is that C1 owners club or just arbitrary C1 owners?

Dyno shows base 72 hp which seems very good for a C1/Aygo thought stock was 68?

Quote: Original car made 72.9 HP flywheel corrected, with Exhaust HP was up 5.9HP to 78.8HP

What does flywheel corrected mean?, surely its a chassis dyno reading or a flywheel dyno reading.

I thought chassis Dyno readings could vary by 6bhp just by doing the test in different gears.

Theres another site City Bug Store, they sell Remus exhausts and rocspeed disks? Is it not just what one suppliers gets a good deal on against another?

The TTE sport exhaust is a back box and tail piece which you are correct in thinking offers no more horsepower, The balance motorsport exhaust is a custom exhaust modelled on the C1 which is a full stainless steel larger diameter center pipe, sports cat ect. which has dyno proven results. Flywheel corrected - all flywheel figures are based on correction for drag/coastdown losses... look at the change in figures that's what's important.

You say that with no doubt the FK coilovers are good... how do you know that? I think they are based in Germany and I've made several attempts to contact them for more info on their coilovers but have had no luck... i got 1 e-mail reply asking for the specific part numbers which I swiftly replied to but had no answer... that was in December. If you read the info presented on the website for balance motrosport you will find out all you need to know about them and to what extent they have been tested... The different drop at the rear is because from testing, this is the best set up for optimum handling.

You won't see them listed on the AVO site because they have only just been developed for the C1/107/Aygo.

[Number1Norton]

When i have my MINI One i was looking at FK Coilovers as they are a more affordable coilover. I thought thats brilliant, but after abit more digging, i found out that where they are made to be cheap, they make the car look good, but no real handling improvements and some crashy ride. Just a warning incase

[kav]

toyota's muffler is inox, but poor grade... it will rust finally.

Remus from Bug Club is fine.

i was to buy it, but i finally had a hand made + tube dia 42mm up to the catalyst for the same price.

ECU needed 1 week to reprogramme it self, and there is a small improvement .

Air filter is a cone filter.

[geezbeez]

The TTE sport exhaust is a back box and tail piece which you are correct in thinking offers no more horsepower, The balance motorsport exhaust is a custom exhaust modelled on the C1 which is a full stainless steel larger diameter center pipe, sports cat ect. which has dyno proven results. Flywheel corrected - all flywheel figures are based on correction for drag/coastdown losses... look at the change in figures that's what's important.

I dont see any sports cat http://www.balancemotorsport.co.uk/products.asp?recnumber=107708

Flywheel figures are flywheel figures they are measured at the flywheel.

You can take measurements through the drive train and has it a guess what the flywheel figure might be.

The change in figures is whats important when you are using a dyno but me thinks how the figures are produced is whats important when your reading them of a web page.

FK Coilovers: Yes it would appear there are reasons to be skeptical about them.

[jjj_aygo]

The TTE sport exhaust is a back box and tail piece which you are correct in thinking offers no more horsepower, The balance motorsport exhaust is a custom exhaust modelled on the C1 which is a full stainless steel larger diameter center pipe, sports cat ect. which has dyno proven results. Flywheel corrected - all flywheel figures are based on correction for drag/coastdown losses... look at the change in figures that's what's important.

I dont see any sports cat http://www.balancemotorsport.co.uk/products.asp?recnumber=107708

Flywheel figures are flywheel figures they are measured at the flywheel.

You can take measurements through the drive train and has it a guess what the flywheel figure might be.

The change in figures is whats important when you are using a dyno but me thinks how the figures are produced is whats important when your reading them of a web page.

FK Coilovers: Yes it would appear there are reasons to be skeptical about them.

EDIT: yes standard cat, bigger bore from cat back.

I don't understand what you are suggesting or asking...?! Yes "Flywheel figures are flywheel figures they are measured at the flywheel" and Yes "The change in figures is whats important when you are using a dyno"... so what is it that you are not sure about? ... Are you suggesting that it may have been measured unprofessionally or incorrectly in some way?

With the AVO kit you will get British Aftersales support should it be necessary, and a kit that you can know has been specificially designed with optimum handling of Our cars as its only purpose... rather than a kit that will just 'fit' our cars from a company which doesn't even seem keen to sell them to you.... I know where I would put my money!

[geezbeez]

Flywheel figures should be flywheel figures yes. But unless you take the engine out and use a flywheel dynamometer they are not.

Most rolling road dynos show 2 figures BHP as measures through the drive train and an estimate of power at the flywheel which is based on the figure measured through the drivetrain.

Now its how that flywheel estimate is mesasured which I do not understand. (I dont think anyone else understands either).

So you do a dyno run on a car and it measures 60bhp through the drive train its entirely possible it will show 70bhp as a flywheel estimate. If you measure bhp of a car in all 4 gears you should get 4 diferent drive train figures this is what you should expect as the mechanical loss in power will vary from gear to gear. On an older rear wheel car where 4th gear is almost always 1:1 ratio there would be least mechanical loss in 4th gear so the dyno would show most drivetrain bhp in 4th gear. You would probably dyno such a car in 4th gear to get a best guess at flywheel bhp. Even changing the tyres and wheels would effect the reading that a rolling road dyno would give for

the same car, it would also effect the flywheel estimate (by even more as this is a higher figure). Of course the flywheel power would not have changed. The diference between drivetrain bhp and flywheel bhp can be accounted for by gearbox, final drive, CV joints wheel bearings etc and tyre losses. Surprisingly tyre loss can be the largest factor. The Aygo is rated at 68bhp, so if you dyno a standard car and the flywheel estimate is 72bhp you can reasonably assume the flywheel estimate is more likely wrong than right.

If you asked someone to dyno your car and they only gave you a flywheel estimate then that would not be much use to you. You would want to see the drivetrain bhp as well and would need to know exactly what gear the car was dynod in. You would also have checked your tyre pressures carefully before the dyno run. Next time car dyno'd you would ensure tyre pressures were the same and go back to same place and have dyno'd in exactly same way.

What I doubt about balance motorsport claim is that 6bhp can be gained by only a cat back exhaust. I think its very hard to get any bhp improvement in exhaust system without changing for a tuned manifold and sports cat or cat removal. Something like Kaz pictures which I believe are NOT the item from Balance Motorsport claimed to provide an extra 6bhp. Whilst I would believe an extra 10bhp with a performance manifold like Kaz has I dont believe you would get more than 1 or possibly 2 bhp increase from a cat back system. Figures to small to measure accurately with a drivetrain dyno.

[jjj_aygo]

Thanks much for explaining all that

So the bottom line is that you don't believe the claim, perhaps you should direct your accusations elsewhere... i.e. ask the company who make the exhaust?

[geezbeez]

Im not trying to slate Balance motorsport.

I expected to comments something along the lines of "I bought one of these and can I do believe the claims because I got it fitted and it really is better because....." and maybe "I fitted a different exhaust and its (also good/no good at all)"

If you look on my107 blogspot on the dyno used "a standard 107 appeared to make 75.8BHP @ 5974rpm, improving to

79.4BHP @ 5946RPM, with a K&N and backbox change so almost the same figures with a different airfilter and back box.

Are these dynos overreading or does the 1 litre unit generally make a bit more than the 68 claimed in basic tune?

That might be something to discuss?

When starting this thread: I didnt expect one person to take opposition to my posting along the lines of questioning why I should ask and why I should not take website dyno results as fact. Initialy making out that the exhaust was something it was not, and then back tracking, whilst constantly questioning me, possibly wishing to debunk me as an ill-informed idiot. Not discussing the product and finally sugesting I take my discussion off the forum.

On a positive note: AVO coilover kit.

I do quite a lot of research before I buy stuff and I think "Number1Norton" comments about the FK dampers were helpful and I can contact AVO about the coilover kit if I decide I might want to buy it.

I asked skeptically why 0-30mm drop front and 25mm rear:

What I believe the correct reason for having 5mm more drop front than rear is:

The rears are non adjustable so set at 25mm. With alowance for 5mm more drop front then the front can initially be set at 25mm as the back, then you can then measure the weight on both front wheels and adjust acordingly for even corner weight.

If the rears were set at 30mm and front 0-30mm when you adjusted for corner weight at the front you would always end up with the car slightly lower at the rear. I did not post sugesting this, I thought it was the right answer and I thought someone else might say something similar unprompted.

[kav]

You would also have checked your tyre pressures carefully before the dyno run. Next time car dyno'd you would ensure tyre pressures were the same and go back to same place and have dyno'd in exactly same way.

true as you say it.

...even weather conditions affect dynos

if results are not corrected, then it's waste of time + money.

What I doubt about balance motorsport claim is that 6bhp can be gained by only a cat back exhaust. I think its very hard to get any bhp improvement in exhaust system without changing for a tuned manifold and sports cat or cat removal. Something like Kaz pictures which I believe are NOT the item from Balance Motorsport claimed to provide an extra 6bhp.

No, those are hand/custom made in Greece. We have discount prices + lifetime warranty.

you have 1000 rights, horses are not peanuts.

Gaining them requires funds + clear mechanic's head, patience + searching +...researching finally !

Cat removal is murder. Sport cat is a solution, but who pays ? :o

it is kav, not kaz or even....Kamaz!

Whilst I would believe an extra 10bhp with a performance manifold like Kaz has I dont believe you would get more than 1 or possibly 2 bhp increase from a cat back system. Figures to small to measure accurately with a drivetrain dyno.

manifold is not...mine.

the owner gave 300e for that only !

Results on dyno were shown. Torque + hp.

I placed photos just to take a picture of them in order to have something in mind for

other members when they go out for exhaust buy.

Figures on the other side, have stopped deal with them....long ago!

[jjj_aygo]

geezbeez at no point have I tried to 'debunk you as an ill-informed idiot' I cannot understand why but I do apologise if it has come across that way... I have only asked you clear and simple questions to try and understand what you were actually asking. I find that your posts HAVE come across like you are slating balance motorsport. If you wanted to know about others experiences with the exhaust to determine your own perception on the validity of the dyno results, why not just ask exactly that instead of starting the whole topic off like the bhp measurement has been grossly over estimated and you doubt the claims made?

I didn't suggest that you take the topic off the forum, its not my place to do that as I'm not a moderator and this is a public forum, but I DID suggest that you direct your doubts at the company who made the exhaust which is most likely to be the best way of helping you decide whether to buy or not.

Also, picking up on a genuine typing mistake which although misleading was corrected, and suggesting that I was making the exhaust out to be something that it is not, is rather childish!