My Avensis Saga

[al_thomo]

Hello All

I have an Avensis T180 2.2 D (56 plate 46,000 miles)

Recently the car was performing very sluggish. Awful when cold. Took ages to "get going". Losing power in 2nd around corners and then often at 70 - 80 mph on the motorway. Pedal to the metal making no difference and needing to drop gear in order to kick the car back into life again.

Took it into Toyota. They instantly knew all the symptoms before I even handed them the keys and they came back to me with £3000 worth of work needed. Said it was "Inlet maifold partially blocked and egr valve stuck open. Excessive amounts of carbon build up." As it was a "known fault" Toyota agreed to pay for all this work to be done - phew!

Kept it in for over a week getting parts / stripping engine etc.

When it came back to me there was much better performance at speed and once warmed up but the same sluggish performance when cold, taking ages to warm up. I live on a hill and now can only go down hill in the mornings as going uphill is painful and I literally hold up traffic with my foot hard down on the gas.

So - back to Toyota. Another look over by the mechanic who then tells me I need a new turbo. Couldn't previously be diagnosed and although Toyota will not pay for the work, Toyota Customer Service in UK say they will pay half as a gesture of good will. (Still now going to cost me over £1000 though.)

Anyway my concern is this - if the turbo has gone would it be bursting into life as it now does once warmed up. Its great at high speed and you can really feel the turbo kick in once the car is warmed up. I don't want to spend a grand to get a new turbo only to be back there again in a week with crap performance when cold. I am not a mechanic so I cant exactly challenge the guy at Toyota who knows his stuff but neither do I want to pay £1000 to not have the problem resolved.

My feelings are that if the turbo had gone you would feel it constantly, regardless of how warmed up the car was and right through the range of gears.

Am I right?

Any ideas what else it could be? Could I suggest something else to the garage? Are they perfectly right and will this solve all my problems?

Any advice would really be appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

Alan

[t-spiritpete]

Hello All

I have an Avensis T180 2.2 D (56 plate 46,000 miles)

Recently the car was performing very sluggish. Awful when cold. Took ages to "get going". Losing power in 2nd around corners and then often at 70 - 80 mph on the motorway. Pedal to the metal making no difference and needing to drop gear in order to kick the car back into life again.

Took it into Toyota. They instantly knew all the symptoms before I even handed them the keys and they came back to me with £3000 worth of work needed. Said it was "Inlet maifold partially blocked and egr valve stuck open. Excessive amounts of carbon build up." As it was a "known fault" Toyota agreed to pay for all this work to be done - phew!

Kept it in for over a week getting parts / stripping engine etc.

When it came back to me there was much better performance at speed and once warmed up but the same sluggish performance when cold, taking ages to warm up. I live on a hill and now can only go down hill in the mornings as going uphill is painful and I literally hold up traffic with my foot hard down on the gas.

So - back to Toyota. Another look over by the mechanic who then tells me I need a new turbo. Couldn't previously be diagnosed and although Toyota will not pay for the work, Toyota Customer Service in UK say they will pay half as a gesture of good will. (Still now going to cost me over £1000 though.)

Anyway my concern is this - if the turbo has gone would it be bursting into life as it now does once warmed up. Its great at high speed and you can really feel the turbo kick in once the car is warmed up. I don't want to spend a grand to get a new turbo only to be back there again in a week with crap performance when cold. I am not a mechanic so I cant exactly challenge the guy at Toyota who knows his stuff but neither do I want to pay £1000 to not have the problem resolved.

My feelings are that if the turbo had gone you would feel it constantly, regardless of how warmed up the car was and right through the range of gears.

Am I right?

Any ideas what else it could be? Could I suggest something else to the garage? Are they perfectly right and will this solve all my problems?

Any advice would really be appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

Alan

Hi Alan, what a story, anyway a mate of mine has a T180 as a taxi and had the same problem but his was due to a faulty vacuum valve to do with the turbo, I'm not sure exactly which one but i can make some enquiries for you.

Seems to me like you need to try another dealership if you have one not to far away for a second opinion.

Regards Pete.

[al_thomo]

Alan

Hi Alan, what a story, anyway a mate of mine has a T180 as a taxi and had the same problem but his was due to a faulty vacuum valve to do with the turbo, I'm not sure exactly which one but i can make some enquiries for you.

Seems to me like you need to try another dealership if you have one not to far away for a second opinion.

Regards Pete.

Cheers Pete,

Looked into that but not sure another dealership will offer the half price labour costs.

Pain in the neck.

Any advice would be great,

Cheers

Al

[igormus]

Hello All

I have an Avensis T180 2.2 D (56 plate 46,000 miles)

Recently the car was performing very sluggish. Awful when cold. Took ages to "get going". Losing power in 2nd around corners and then often at 70 - 80 mph on the motorway. Pedal to the metal making no difference and needing to drop gear in order to kick the car back into life again.

Took it into Toyota. They instantly knew all the symptoms before I even handed them the keys and they came back to me with £3000 worth of work needed. Said it was "Inlet maifold partially blocked and egr valve stuck open. Excessive amounts of carbon build up." As it was a "known fault" Toyota agreed to pay for all this work to be done - phew!

Kept it in for over a week getting parts / stripping engine etc.

When it came back to me there was much better performance at speed and once warmed up but the same sluggish performance when cold, taking ages to warm up. I live on a hill and now can only go down hill in the mornings as going uphill is painful and I literally hold up traffic with my foot hard down on the gas.

So - back to Toyota. Another look over by the mechanic who then tells me I need a new turbo. Couldn't previously be diagnosed and although Toyota will not pay for the work, Toyota Customer Service in UK say they will pay half as a gesture of good will. (Still now going to cost me over £1000 though.)

Anyway my concern is this - if the turbo has gone would it be bursting into life as it now does once warmed up. Its great at high speed and you can really feel the turbo kick in once the car is warmed up. I don't want to spend a grand to get a new turbo only to be back there again in a week with crap performance when cold. I am not a mechanic so I cant exactly challenge the guy at Toyota who knows his stuff but neither do I want to pay £1000 to not have the problem resolved.

My feelings are that if the turbo had gone you would feel it constantly, regardless of how warmed up the car was and right through the range of gears.

Am I right?

Any ideas what else it could be? Could I suggest something else to the garage? Are they perfectly right and will this solve all my problems?

Any advice would really be appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

Alan

hi AL

The rough mistake of all is to cure the consequence but not the reason.

Mr Mechanic had not to consider turbocharger as normal consumable :) and try to charge you a huge amount for new unit.

The turbo had to be serviced/cleaned from the gas flow side + internal consumables changing. As to an EGR it must also be cleaned with equal intervals of service. But the reason of all aforesaid is only poor injection and over fueling. The balance between an air and fuel was violated. Check with private garages that deal with turbocharger overhauling --they must to have service kits. Cheers/Igor

[Sam29]

Cheers Pete,

Looked into that but not sure another dealership will offer the half price labour costs.

Pain in the neck.

Any advice would be great,

Cheers

Al

I guess pete is saying just to get it assessed. If they have changed manifold and egr valve and still it lacks the power in cold engine, then it could be what pete mentioned.

You must have black smock if turbo is completely gone and you are correct that if turbo is faulty then you must have same response when car is warm.

Well Igor made a very good point and unfortunately mechanics treat the symptoms and not root cause. You may have all this mess due to faulty injector leading to false combination of fuel and air and depositing stuff on egr and manifold and ultimately affecting your turbo.

I know you want to retain the warranty, therefore you will stick to toyota dealership, otherwise you could get used turbo for about 250-300 and get it fixed for 50-100.

Best of luck and let us know how you get on with it.

[al_thomo]

Thanks so much everyone. Have to say I am gutted that the response wasn;t "Yes - put your hand in your pocket this time and all your problems will melt away and your car will be as god as new!"

I am however pleased that your advice has encouraged me to not throw money at something that may not be solved.

I told a family friend about the issue too and thought I would post his email to me in case someone else needs advice about this one day in the future and follows this thread

Just another opinion to throw in the pot......

From what you are saying I would suggest that they have not yet sorted the underlying basic problem of the not running properly/ safely from

start up until it has warmed up.

A build up of carbon on the EGR valve is not unknown on modern TDI engines, ask any G.M. Vectra owner, albeit with more than 100,000 miles.

My friend had a similar problem, but he has been able, so far, to minimise any problems by spraying the E.G.R. valve with carburetteur / injection cleaner spray. On hios vehicle the front of the EGR valve is accessed by removing one hose.

To be unable to drive the car uphill from cold suggests to me that there is an underlying problem with the Engine Management software/ E.G.R. valve settings.

I would not expect that putting your foot to the floor would make any difference as most vehicles are "fly-by-wire".

Your accelerator is in effect an electronic switch, when you request more power by depressing the pedal any requests for more power are controlled by the Engine

Management System, this is how modern cars can keep within E.U. emmisions standards.

For the mechanic to suggest that the "turbo has gone" sounds very suspicious to me, in view of the fact that the car runs well when it is warm. IF the turbo is unservicable you would lots of tell tale signs when the engine is warm, e.g. smoke / excessive oil consumption.

If the turbo is unservicable I would expect it not to work at all under any circumstances. I would be curious to know what the mechanic's definition is of a turbo that has "gone"

I have a sneeking suspicion that the mechanic is clutching at straws, fitting parts, at the customer's expense, naturally, in the hope that this would cure the problem.

Maybe before you "invest" a large sum with the Toyota dealer I would suggest that you an independant garage with an Autodata tablet or similar check out the electronics. If you don't know anyone, Trevor Lloyd (Lloyd Motors- 356 4699) has such a tablet and will not rip you off. Give me a ring if you would like me to speak to him.

I hope this is of some use

[al_thomo]

Just to update anyone interested....

Spoke to the Toyota Mechanic who says I need the new turbo.

Apparently the variable veins in the turbo are sticking and there is no way any "part" of a turbo can be replaced - it is all or nothing.

The reason the turbo is fine once warmed up is because the BOOST PRESSURE and the MASS AIR FLOW should be equal. On mine they differ when cold which gives next to no power. Once warm, they become equal so the turbo works as normal.

Looks like I am paying a grand tomorrow then

Thanks for your help everyone, I read the guy all your responses whilst on the phone but to no avail.

All the best,

Al

[igormus]

Just to update anyone interested....

Spoke to the Toyota Mechanic who says I need the new turbo.

Apparently the variable veins in the turbo are sticking and there is no way any "part" of a turbo can be replaced - it is all or nothing.

The reason the turbo is fine once warmed up is because the BOOST PRESSURE and the MASS AIR FLOW should be equal. On mine they differ when cold which gives next to no power. Once warm, they become equal so the turbo works as normal.

Looks like I am paying a grand tomorrow then

Thanks for your help everyone, I read the guy all your responses whilst on the phone but to no avail.

All the best,

Al

hi Al

Have you seen your turbo as dismantled?

I am really surprised that you're agree with them !!!

YOu do not lose anything yet but to ask for an independent reliable garage to take it off + dismantle + check with all worn down parts + measure all gaps. Nothing new in the turbo. The vanes are sticked due to carbon deposits between an vane axis and vane itself, besides the carbon might be on the kinematic of vanes driving. The service kit must to help at gradually low cost. Do not worry - MrT is yr lastest chance. Try to deal with garage mate. Cheers/Igor

[caveman_si]

Least your dealers seem to know what they are talking about by telling why they think your problem is what it is.

If you cant afford dealer prices see if you can source the turbo yourself and get a good indie garage to fit it. Last time i got a turbo I used btn turbos nice and dead helpful but that was a good few yrs ago http://www.btnturbo.com/parts/ worth a punt if nothing else.

[al_thomo]

Thanks so much guys.

Really appreciate the comments still coming.

I'm not exactly delighted about spending the cash and would obviously rather not.

However. Spoke to 2 garages. One wanted nothing to do with it and said I started with Toyota and they should see it through. Couldn't even get him to look at it! The other guy said that at £1000 I should bite their hand off. If they will fit a Toyota branded turbo for that then take them up on it.

I totally realise that if someone could tinker about with and sort it for a few hundred quid that would be great. The point is though - would I be better to pay the extra £££ and have Toyota do it themselves, get 12 month warranty and have the whole thing sorted.

Im not technical at all when it comes to cars (give me a computer or a camera any day) and of course the mechanic seems to know what he's talking about. Sure I would love someone to have had a look at it but have been unsuccessful with two garages. Also if I do find someone who buggers it up you can guarantee that Toyota aren't exactly going to bend over backwards to help me then - bye bye half price Turbo.

Argh!

Al

[Druid Boy]

Strikes me that Toyota entered into a contract with you to fix your car - albeit at no cost to you. They have not fixed your car. The fault you have now has no been caused since the repair was performed, it was there when the repair was performed. I suspect that they failed to carry out a full diagnosis as 'they instantly recognised the symptoms' - that was foolish of them. Toyota have not fixed your car as they undertook to do. Their problem to fix, not yours. Try contacting Toyota GB - to me this is totally unacceptable.