Avensis Brakes...

[Mistermena]

Hi all,

I've change all my discs and pads on my Avensis T-180 estate. But when I took it for a test drive all 4 discs are getting really hot and making an awful metalic sound. I've taking all the discs and pads off 4 times now but its still making the same noise. Made sure that the pistons are moving easily and copper grease on the backs of the pads and the pad holders/guides.

Can anyone give me some advise on what to do please? Or if there is anyone in the Barry (Wales) area who is willing to take a look at it for me please?

[t-spiritpete]

Hi mate, make sure the fluid reservoir is not full to the very top after you forced the pistons back with new discs and pads, if ok bleed the brakes a little at each wheel.

If I was near to you i would come round to help but I'm in Cheshire.

Pete.

[Mistermena]

Hi mate, make sure the fluid reservoir is not full to the very top after you forced the pistons back with new discs and pads, if ok bleed the brakes a little at each wheel.

If I was near to you i would come round to help but I'm in Cheshire.

Pete.

Hi Pete,

Many thanks for that offer mate. I'm very gratful. I've made sure that the brake fluid is okay and to the correct level. I've just taken the rear drivers side dis and pads off to find that for some reason the new disc is catching the inner part of the back plate. God knows how this is happening becasue the disc has to be right back on the wheel hub. But I can see loads of marks on the new inner hub part of the disc, and the back plate has worn down at points! this after a 3 min drive.

I'm just at a loss to know what to do now. I've never know this to ever happen before and I've changed loads of brakes on cars over the years. I've even put the old disc back on and its doing the same when it didn't do it before.

[t-spiritpete]

Hi mate, make sure the fluid reservoir is not full to the very top after you forced the pistons back with new discs and pads, if ok bleed the brakes a little at each wheel.

If I was near to you i would come round to help but I'm in Cheshire.

Pete.

Hi Pete,

Many thanks for that offer mate. I'm very gratful. I've made sure that the brake fluid is okay and to the correct level. I've just taken the rear drivers side dis and pads off to find that for some reason the new disc is catching the inner part of the back plate. God knows how this is happening becasue the disc has to be right back on the wheel hub. But I can see loads of marks on the new inner hub part of the disc, and the back plate has worn down at points! this after a 3 min drive.

I'm just at a loss to know what to do now. I've never know this to ever happen before and I've changed loads of brakes on cars over the years. I've even put the old disc back on and its doing the same when it didn't do it before.

Sorry to hear you are still having trouble, are you 100% they are the right ones? I can't spend much time on the forum right now as we have visitors round.

Anyway I have attached a .PDF file of the braking system which may help, If you already have it then don't worry and I will catch you soon.

Regards and good luck ..... Pete.

AVENSIS BRAKEs.pdf

[Mistermena]

Hi mate, make sure the fluid reservoir is not full to the very top after you forced the pistons back with new discs and pads, if ok bleed the brakes a little at each wheel.

If I was near to you i would come round to help but I'm in Cheshire.

Pete.

Hi Pete,

Many thanks for that offer mate. I'm very gratful. I've made sure that the brake fluid is okay and to the correct level. I've just taken the rear drivers side dis and pads off to find that for some reason the new disc is catching the inner part of the back plate. God knows how this is happening becasue the disc has to be right back on the wheel hub. But I can see loads of marks on the new inner hub part of the disc, and the back plate has worn down at points! this after a 3 min drive.

I'm just at a loss to know what to do now. I've never know this to ever happen before and I've changed loads of brakes on cars over the years. I've even put the old disc back on and its doing the same when it didn't do it before.

Sorry to hear you are still having trouble, are you 100% they are the right ones? I can't spend much time on the forum right now as we have visitors round.

Anyway I have attached a .PDF file of the braking system which may help, If you already have it then don't worry and I will catch you soon.

Regards and good luck ..... Pete.

Hi Pete,

My thoughts were like yours regarding the correct size discs and pads. So I went back on the Euro Car Parts site to check and also the Pagid site to. All the numbers seem to check out. But I can't see why all 4 discs seem to be binding and getting hot without even using the brakes. I've just bought a Snap-on Techangle wrench to check if I've over tightened the bolts. But I cant see how I have as when I've replaced the pads and tightened the bolts there doesn't seem to be any play in the 2 rubber clad carrier bolts. Many thanks for the Pdf file to.

I'm wondering if the discs and pads are just to thick for the job. But then how can they be if they are the correct ones? But this still leaves the question why the hell is the inner part of the rear hub disc now touching the rear plate?

I'm gratful for any suggestions mate.

Cheers

Tim

[Druid Boy]

Have a good look at them with the wheel off. By spinning the disc by hand you should be able to determine which components are dragging/rubbing. From there you can start working out why they are dragging. Sorry I can't be more helpful. All sounds very strange to me. Perhaps the discs or pads are too thick and causing the caliper to drag the pads on the disc? Don't know how thick they are meant to be. Might be worth comparing the sizes with your old ones, allowing for wear.

[Mistermena]

Have a good look at them with the wheel off. By spinning the disc by hand you should be able to determine which components are dragging/rubbing. From there you can start working out why they are dragging. Sorry I can't be more helpful. All sounds very strange to me. Perhaps the discs or pads are too thick and causing the caliper to drag the pads on the disc? Don't know how thick they are meant to be. Might be worth comparing the sizes with your old ones, allowing for wear.

Its a strange one to me to. After working on cars over 25 years I've never had such a problem with changing pads and discs. I've taken the them all off again and checked that all the pistons are working. And they're fine.

Looking at the rear drivers side disc it catching the back plate when its turning. But the disc will only go on as far as the wheel hub will allow. If I withdraw it a little away from the hub it does catch the back plate. But when the wheels are back on it will as the wheels bolts will push it back to the hub as it should.

I can see where its dragging on the back plate, so I'm gussing that I'll have to use a punch to the back plate to try and get some free space for the disc to run. All very odd I must say!

I think I should have just bought the maim dealer parts now and not tried to have save the money by buying non-original parts. :censor:

I'm going to get the discs off and compare again with the old discs. I did this quickly when I 1st bought the new set and they seemed to be fine. But I'll take another look.

It might meen a trip to Mr T to get to the bottom of this one. Because I'm stumped to know why this is being such a nighmare.

Any help guys is most welcome. Or a !Removed! big hammer to it is what I'll have to do

[Jamesbelfast]

When assembling brake components as should go together easily by hand - if not then something is greatly amiss.

Is the profile of the new pads exactly the smae as the old ones?:)

[Mistermena]

When assembling brake components as should go together easily by hand - if not then something is greatly amiss.

Is the profile of the new pads exactly the smae as the old ones?:)

The pads and discs when on without any problem really. Just put them in by hand without the need to be forced. The old pads and disc were Unipart once that were on there when I bought the car. So the pads backing plate are the same size an shape as the new ones.

I'm goning to ring Euro car parts again to see if I can find out anymore details on these Pagid's.

Failing that I may have to put the old ones back on and take it to Mr T. But I really dont want to do that if I can avoid it.

[Parts-King]

I reckon the depth of the disc is too great, I can do you good prices on genuine if you want to go that route and put them on yourself, let me know if you want me to price it all for you, PM me the Reg number if you do, don't want to supply you the wrong ones

Kingo

[KenMavor]

I reckon the depth of the disc is too great, I can do you good prices on genuine if you want to go that route and put them on yourself, let me know if you want me to price it all for you, PM me the Reg number if you do, don't want to supply you the wrong ones

Kingo

Can only remember something similar happening to me and it was down to the actual width of the disks themselves. They were about 3mm

fatter than the originals. Everything fitted fine. The piston had to be pushed way back to get the piston back on but it wasn't

impossible. Everything looked fine but horrendous noise when I drove the car and pumped the brakes to get servo working. Everything back

off and compared and thought new disks were the wrong ones. Called supplier and they said they were the correct disks for the car

- it was a Toyota Previa 4wd import - I had got the part numbers from Toyota and asked for the like for like non OEM parts.

Took the disks back to the supplier and we checked everything 4 times. Part numbers from Toyota, his part numbers, his entry into

my order etc. Everything was OK. Last resort - get another set of disks out and compare. Placed the new one on the counter next

to my one and there was a good 3-4mm difference in thickness. Either the wrong disks had been put in the box or is was just a complete

mix up all round. Put new disks on the Previa and everything was fine.

Moral - it maybe nothing that you have done wrong. It maybe that the parts are actually wrong even though they are labelled correctly.

Just a thought.

[Mistermena]

I reckon the depth of the disc is too great, I can do you good prices on genuine if you want to go that route and put them on yourself, let me know if you want me to price it all for you, PM me the Reg number if you do, don't want to supply you the wrong ones

Kingo

Can only remember something similar happening to me and it was down to the actual width of the disks themselves. They were about 3mm

fatter than the originals. Everything fitted fine. The piston had to be pushed way back to get the piston back on but it wasn't

impossible. Everything looked fine but horrendous noise when I drove the car and pumped the brakes to get servo working. Everything back

off and compared and thought new disks were the wrong ones. Called supplier and they said they were the correct disks for the car

- it was a Toyota Previa 4wd import - I had got the part numbers from Toyota and asked for the like for like non OEM parts.

Took the disks back to the supplier and we checked everything 4 times. Part numbers from Toyota, his part numbers, his entry into

my order etc. Everything was OK. Last resort - get another set of disks out and compare. Placed the new one on the counter next

to my one and there was a good 3-4mm difference in thickness. Either the wrong disks had been put in the box or is was just a complete

mix up all round. Put new disks on the Previa and everything was fine.

Moral - it maybe nothing that you have done wrong. It maybe that the parts are actually wrong even though they are labelled correctly.

Just a thought.

Thanks mate. That makes me feel a lot better because I was starting to think I was going mad for a min. I've called the supplier and told them that they simply dont fit the car. I'm going to put the old disc and pads back on and see what they have to say.

The only problem I have with taking them back is I sprayed the hub part black to stop the rust eating into them and looking awful like the old set were. I bet they'll try and say that they can't take them back because of it. I think I might have an arrgument on my hands tbh.

But if they dont fit then they dont fit! Might just have to get original parts after all.

Has anyone else encountered anything else like this before? :ffs:

[Mistermena]

I reckon the depth of the disc is too great, I can do you good prices on genuine if you want to go that route and put them on yourself, let me know if you want me to price it all for you, PM me the Reg number if you do, don't want to supply you the wrong ones

Kingo

Cheers mate. It may well come to getting the original parts after all.

[KenMavor]

I reckon the depth of the disc is too great, I can do you good prices on genuine if you want to go that route and put them on yourself, let me know if you want me to price it all for you, PM me the Reg number if you do, don't want to supply you the wrong ones

Kingo

Can only remember something similar happening to me and it was down to the actual width of the disks themselves. They were about 3mm

fatter than the originals. Everything fitted fine. The piston had to be pushed way back to get the piston back on but it wasn't

impossible. Everything looked fine but horrendous noise when I drove the car and pumped the brakes to get servo working. Everything back

off and compared and thought new disks were the wrong ones. Called supplier and they said they were the correct disks for the car

- it was a Toyota Previa 4wd import - I had got the part numbers from Toyota and asked for the like for like non OEM parts.

Took the disks back to the supplier and we checked everything 4 times. Part numbers from Toyota, his part numbers, his entry into

my order etc. Everything was OK. Last resort - get another set of disks out and compare. Placed the new one on the counter next

to my one and there was a good 3-4mm difference in thickness. Either the wrong disks had been put in the box or is was just a complete

mix up all round. Put new disks on the Previa and everything was fine.

Moral - it maybe nothing that you have done wrong. It maybe that the parts are actually wrong even though they are labelled correctly.

Just a thought.

Thanks mate. That makes me feel a lot better because I was starting to think I was going mad for a min. I've called the supplier and told them that they simply dont fit the car. I'm going to put the old disc and pads back on and see what they have to say.

The only problem I have with taking them back is I sprayed the hub part black to stop the rust eating into them and looking awful like the old set were. I bet they'll try and say that they can't take them back because of it. I think I might have an arrgument on my hands tbh.

But if they dont fit then they dont fit! Might just have to get original parts after all.

Has anyone else encountered anything else like this before? :ffs:

Take them back in person if you can.

The mistake is theirs if you gave them the correct details of the car - make, model, year etc.

If their parts catalogue says these are the correct parts, and obviously they are not then they have

given you the incorrect parts - ie not fit for purpose for what they were sold and bought for.

Sale Of Goods act states that goods must be fit for purpose which these, clearly, are not. Would

suggest that even if you hadn't sprayed them they would have been marked and hence treated as

used goods.

Stand your ground and quote Sale of Goods act if they start making noises. Maybe get someone else

to phone up for the same parts and see what they get quoted with. Get the Toyota part numbers

as I find that usually is cross referenced in any catalogues.

Let us know how you get on and what finally the problem was.

[KenMavor]

I reckon the depth of the disc is too great, I can do you good prices on genuine if you want to go that route and put them on yourself, let me know if you want me to price it all for you, PM me the Reg number if you do, don't want to supply you the wrong ones

Kingo

Can only remember something similar happening to me and it was down to the actual width of the disks themselves. They were about 3mm

fatter than the originals. Everything fitted fine. The piston had to be pushed way back to get the piston back on but it wasn't

impossible. Everything looked fine but horrendous noise when I drove the car and pumped the brakes to get servo working. Everything back

off and compared and thought new disks were the wrong ones. Called supplier and they said they were the correct disks for the car

- it was a Toyota Previa 4wd import - I had got the part numbers from Toyota and asked for the like for like non OEM parts.

Took the disks back to the supplier and we checked everything 4 times. Part numbers from Toyota, his part numbers, his entry into

my order etc. Everything was OK. Last resort - get another set of disks out and compare. Placed the new one on the counter next

to my one and there was a good 3-4mm difference in thickness. Either the wrong disks had been put in the box or is was just a complete

mix up all round. Put new disks on the Previa and everything was fine.

Moral - it maybe nothing that you have done wrong. It maybe that the parts are actually wrong even though they are labelled correctly.

Just a thought.

Thanks mate. That makes me feel a lot better because I was starting to think I was going mad for a min. I've called the supplier and told them that they simply dont fit the car. I'm going to put the old disc and pads back on and see what they have to say.

The only problem I have with taking them back is I sprayed the hub part black to stop the rust eating into them and looking awful like the old set were. I bet they'll try and say that they can't take them back because of it. I think I might have an arrgument on my hands tbh.

But if they dont fit then they dont fit! Might just have to get original parts after all.

Has anyone else encountered anything else like this before? :ffs:

Take them back in person if you can.

The mistake is theirs if you gave them the correct details of the car - make, model, year etc.

If their parts catalogue says these are the correct parts, and obviously they are not then they have

given you the incorrect parts - ie not fit for purpose for what they were sold and bought for.

Sale Of Goods act states that goods must be fit for purpose which these, clearly, are not. Would

suggest that even if you hadn't sprayed them they would have been marked and hence treated as

used goods.

Stand your ground and quote Sale of Goods act if they start making noises. Maybe get someone else

to phone up for the same parts and see what they get quoted with. Get the Toyota part numbers

as I find that usually is cross referenced in any catalogues.

Let us know how you get on and what finally the problem was.

I hate to ask but you haven't got the wrong discs on the wrong part of the car?

IE the front disks on the rear and vice versa. They are different diameters and widths.

Just a thought and just the sort of thing I'd do.

[Mistermena]

I reckon the depth of the disc is too great, I can do you good prices on genuine if you want to go that route and put them on yourself, let me know if you want me to price it all for you, PM me the Reg number if you do, don't want to supply you the wrong ones

Kingo

Can only remember something similar happening to me and it was down to the actual width of the disks themselves. They were about 3mm

fatter than the originals. Everything fitted fine. The piston had to be pushed way back to get the piston back on but it wasn't

impossible. Everything looked fine but horrendous noise when I drove the car and pumped the brakes to get servo working. Everything back

off and compared and thought new disks were the wrong ones. Called supplier and they said they were the correct disks for the car

- it was a Toyota Previa 4wd import - I had got the part numbers from Toyota and asked for the like for like non OEM parts.

Took the disks back to the supplier and we checked everything 4 times. Part numbers from Toyota, his part numbers, his entry into

my order etc. Everything was OK. Last resort - get another set of disks out and compare. Placed the new one on the counter next

to my one and there was a good 3-4mm difference in thickness. Either the wrong disks had been put in the box or is was just a complete

mix up all round. Put new disks on the Previa and everything was fine.

Moral - it maybe nothing that you have done wrong. It maybe that the parts are actually wrong even though they are labelled correctly.

Just a thought.

Thanks mate. That makes me feel a lot better because I was starting to think I was going mad for a min. I've called the supplier and told them that they simply dont fit the car. I'm going to put the old disc and pads back on and see what they have to say.

The only problem I have with taking them back is I sprayed the hub part black to stop the rust eating into them and looking awful like the old set were. I bet they'll try and say that they can't take them back because of it. I think I might have an arrgument on my hands tbh.

But if they dont fit then they dont fit! Might just have to get original parts after all.

Has anyone else encountered anything else like this before? :ffs:

Take them back in person if you can.

The mistake is theirs if you gave them the correct details of the car - make, model, year etc.

If their parts catalogue says these are the correct parts, and obviously they are not then they have

given you the incorrect parts - ie not fit for purpose for what they were sold and bought for.

Sale Of Goods act states that goods must be fit for purpose which these, clearly, are not. Would

suggest that even if you hadn't sprayed them they would have been marked and hence treated as

used goods.

Stand your ground and quote Sale of Goods act if they start making noises. Maybe get someone else

to phone up for the same parts and see what they get quoted with. Get the Toyota part numbers

as I find that usually is cross referenced in any catalogues.

Let us know how you get on and what finally the problem was.

I hate to ask but you haven't got the wrong discs on the wrong part of the car?

IE the front disks on the rear and vice versa. They are different diameters and widths.

Just a thought and just the sort of thing I'd do.

Hi, no I haven't got the wrong discs on the front and back. The rears have a much bigger hub on them than the front to allow for the inner handbrake parking shoes. But I can see why you posed the question.

[Mistermena]

I reckon the depth of the disc is too great, I can do you good prices on genuine if you want to go that route and put them on yourself, let me know if you want me to price it all for you, PM me the Reg number if you do, don't want to supply you the wrong ones

Kingo

Can only remember something similar happening to me and it was down to the actual width of the disks themselves. They were about 3mm

fatter than the originals. Everything fitted fine. The piston had to be pushed way back to get the piston back on but it wasn't

impossible. Everything looked fine but horrendous noise when I drove the car and pumped the brakes to get servo working. Everything back

off and compared and thought new disks were the wrong ones. Called supplier and they said they were the correct disks for the car

- it was a Toyota Previa 4wd import - I had got the part numbers from Toyota and asked for the like for like non OEM parts.

Took the disks back to the supplier and we checked everything 4 times. Part numbers from Toyota, his part numbers, his entry into

my order etc. Everything was OK. Last resort - get another set of disks out and compare. Placed the new one on the counter next

to my one and there was a good 3-4mm difference in thickness. Either the wrong disks had been put in the box or is was just a complete

mix up all round. Put new disks on the Previa and everything was fine.

Moral - it maybe nothing that you have done wrong. It maybe that the parts are actually wrong even though they are labelled correctly.

Just a thought.

Thanks mate. That makes me feel a lot better because I was starting to think I was going mad for a min. I've called the supplier and told them that they simply dont fit the car. I'm going to put the old disc and pads back on and see what they have to say.

The only problem I have with taking them back is I sprayed the hub part black to stop the rust eating into them and looking awful like the old set were. I bet they'll try and say that they can't take them back because of it. I think I might have an arrgument on my hands tbh.

But if they dont fit then they dont fit! Might just have to get original parts after all.

Has anyone else encountered anything else like this before? :ffs:

Take them back in person if you can.

The mistake is theirs if you gave them the correct details of the car - make, model, year etc.

If their parts catalogue says these are the correct parts, and obviously they are not then they have

given you the incorrect parts - ie not fit for purpose for what they were sold and bought for.

Sale Of Goods act states that goods must be fit for purpose which these, clearly, are not. Would

suggest that even if you hadn't sprayed them they would have been marked and hence treated as

used goods.

Stand your ground and quote Sale of Goods act if they start making noises. Maybe get someone else

to phone up for the same parts and see what they get quoted with. Get the Toyota part numbers

as I find that usually is cross referenced in any catalogues.

Let us know how you get on and what finally the problem was.

Hiya mate, yer I'm going to take them back in person and if a problem arrises I'll be quoting the Sales of goods act as you mentioned. Really dont want the hassel as I could do with the car back on the road. But when I'd spoken to the rep on the Euro car web site he informed me to take them back to my local outlet and they would send them off for a full refund. I'm just hoping now thats what they'll do without the need to get into a protracted argument.

I've decided to buy a full set of drilled and groved discs from MTEC. They came in alot cheaper than the main dealer price. They cost £215 delivered and they are the black ones with pads all round.

They have asured me that they are the correct ones for my T-180. So I'm hoping that by next week I'll have the car back on the road again. If these don't fit then it'll be the skip for the Avensis as I just can't stand the messing about! ;) :D :censor: :lol2:

Sorry... Went a bit mad with these funny face thingys! lol

[Mistermena]

Hi Ken,

I've just had a very interesting conversation with one of the guys from Nitrac brakes. He's just told me that there is a difference between the discs and pads on the 2.2 D-4D and the 2.2 D-4D D-CAT T-180. There is a diference in the back disc hub by 3mm (Which is directly in line with what you said) and the front discs are different to.

So it looks like that Euro car parts have supplied me with the wrong discs and pads. But there web site shows the D-CAT as the ones I needed.

So just a heads up for anyone else who wants to buy a set of discs and pads that they are different from the 2.2 to the 2.2 D-CAT.

Crazy or what?!!! :censor:

[KenMavor]

Hi Ken,

I've just had a very interesting conversation with one of the guys from Nitrac brakes. He's just told me that there is a difference between the discs and pads on the 2.2 D-4D and the 2.2 D-4D D-CAT T-180. There is a diference in the back disc hub by 3mm (Which is directly in line with what you said) and the front discs are different to.

So it looks like that Euro car parts have supplied me with the wrong discs and pads. But there web site shows the D-CAT as the ones I needed.

So just a heads up for anyone else who wants to buy a set of discs and pads that they are different from the 2.2 to the 2.2 D-CAT.

Crazy or what?!!! :censor:

Hard enough getting the right parts for any car but if the details are wrong on a web site then you

have no chance. Can you charge them an hourly rate for wasted time?

[Mistermena]

I wish I could charge them for the 3 whole days I've wasted trying to fix theses :censor: things! Good job I've got the week off work. Could think of a better way to spend my day mind, like in a beer garden!

[Heidfirst]

So just a heads up for anyone else who wants to buy a set of discs and pads that they are different from the 2.2 to the 2.2 D-CAT.

I would be very surprised if this is the case.

In my research I didn't come across anything to indicate that.

Afaik all Avensis T25 use the same pads.

The 2.2 D4Ds have a 62mm hub rather than the 55mm of the other engines but I didn't find anything to say that the disc between the non-DCAT, the DCAT & the T180 are different.

& it doesn't make sense from a production engineering pov (& Toyota are pretty good at using standard parts - at least the front discs of the Verso & Auris 2.2D4Ds appear to be the same as on the Avensis 2.2).

& MTEC's part nos. for the 150 & 177bhp 2.2 D4Ds are the same...

Perhaps Parts-King can confirm?

btw why go for grooved & drilled rather than grooved & dimpled?

More chance for a crack with drilling.

[Mistermena]

So just a heads up for anyone else who wants to buy a set of discs and pads that they are different from the 2.2 to the 2.2 D-CAT.

I would be very surprised if this is the case.

In my research I didn't come across anything to indicate that.

Afaik all Avensis T25 use the same pads.

The 2.2 D4Ds have a 62mm hub rather than the 55mm of the other engines but I didn't find anything to say that the disc between the non-DCAT, the DCAT & the T180 are different.

& it doesn't make sense from a production engineering pov (& Toyota are pretty good at using standard parts - at least the front discs of the Verso & Auris 2.2D4Ds appear to be the same as on the Avensis 2.2).

& MTEC's part nos. for the 150 & 177bhp 2.2 D4Ds are the same...

Perhaps Parts-King can confirm?

btw why go for grooved & drilled rather than grooved & dimpled?

More chance for a crack with drilling.

I was surprised to! But I can only go by what I've been told. And if there is a 3mm difference on the rear hub size this would account for the problems I've had with the back plate.

I went for the drilled ones because of the info I had from Black Diamond. I asked the guestion about cracking when the discs were drilled. I was told that it could happen if the discs were very hot and then you went through a deep pubble of water. But he also said that if you had a solid or dimpled one they could warp if the same happened. So its not great for both types of disc. You pays your money and takes your chance. But at least now we can keep an update on how the two sets perform for ourselves and others on here.

So his advise to me was go for drilled and groved for the extra bite for stopping. This goes against what I was going to do by buying the croved and dimpled. I wanted to get the Black Diamond ones but they were far more than the MTEC type.