Wits End

[Eileen]

I'm sorry about this lengthy post but I'm at my wits end.

My beloved Rav a 2006 diesel was stolen in January off the street whilst we were in a restaurant, I still had all 3 keys and cannot fathom how they did it.

The insurance company put the claim in the hands of a claims management company, who also happen to be a firm of private investigators.

The problem arose when they requested all the paperwork for the car and all the keys. The spare remote key is different to the other and for the following reason, the plastic head of the key was damaged possibly by a dog chewing it and wouldn't lock the car but would unlock it. We had bought the car second hand from a general car dealer 12 months earlier.

I went to Toyota for a replacement and came away laughting, my local mechanic told me that he thought the internal electronics were OK and that new key blanks were only a few pounds. He put me on to a locksmith who obtainded a new blank, cut it off the original changed the electronic module over and the key worked fine. It was then put away in the safe.

The insurance people claim they have forensically examined the keys and they are different and the one we had cut could not possibly have worked in our car. According to them not only is there an electronic module in the head of the key a chip is embedded in the key blade for the immobiliser. In addition for the new key to work we would have to have allowed them access to the engine management system, which is certainly not the case.

If this is correct I have a real problem, are they right? Also can anyone shed any light on how they managed to steal the car, 10 months after the new key was cut they keep asking me that as well.

Regards

Eileen

[Big Kev]

Hi Eileen, and a very warm welcome to the club. There is a real electronics boffin obviously still to read this who hopefully can shed some light on your dilemma, but suffice it to say that we all wish you well in this predicament. Sounds like the usual "give us yer cash for insurance, lady" but they will crawl over hot coals NOT to pay out.

Best wishes,

Big Kev

[shcm]

There is a real electronics boffin obviously still to read this who hopefully can shed some light on your dilemma

If on the off chance you are referring to me Kevster, well, hadn't read it as just been watch "The Boat that Guy Built" - about the best thing on the Telly at the moment - mills and clocks in Derbyshire, previously castings in the Black Country and pottery in Stoke - what more could you possibly want! :D .

Anyway Eileen, sorry to here of your predicament.

I've worked on the design of these system, but the last time was about 13 years ago, so things may have moved on and I haven't kept completely updated on them. However, having the transponder chip physically in the key blade is a new one on me! I've googled and found something about general motors keys, but that sounds like a very "micky mouse" thing. More likely the transponder chip will be in the plastic housing or on the circuit board with the remote locking electronics/transmitter.

Have to say, I've not examined a standard Toyota RAV key closely enough to determine whether the transponder in on the circuit board or separate from it. If on the circuit board, then, swapping it over into another housing should be fine. It will work and you don't need access to the engine management system.

If it is embedded in the key case, then, the only thing I can think is that unknowing to you, the transponder has been removed from the original case and permanently placed near the key barrel in the vehicle. This would appear to make the key start the vehicle and could explain how it was managed to be stolen, although the odds seem quite slim for that.

I assume you did check that the key did actually start the vehicle and not just unlock it?

Perhaps the only thing I can suggest is, if you can get the key back, you get it examined by an independent expert, rather than one that may be sympathetic to the insurance company.

[*srjp*]

Hi, I can't speak as an expert but the sheer volume of replacement third-party key blades and fobs on eBay (eg, "just swap the electronic bit into the new fob and have the blade cut to match your old key") suggests that they are talking from something that doesn't have a tongue.

[Bristim]

Sounds like a nightmare...

From personal experience the 2003 keys are just metal and plastic, with the electronic gubbins inside the fob easily transferred between keys - Toyota Service managed to snap my key and subsequently replaced it, I then swapped the insides of one fob to the other with no problems.

Just a thought - why can't you go back to the 'real experts' at your local Toyota dealer and get them to explain if this is true or not - since they actually make the things it cannot be argued with. If not true then get them to write a letter stating it - you can always promise to come and buy a replacement RAV from them...

Again from personal experience, always challenge the so called 'experts'. I had a motorbike crash a few years ago which was due to the road surface having become polished. The first accident report stated that the 'slipperiness' of the surface was within allowances. For a car perhaps, not a bike - having challenged it, they backed down sharpish - kerching! (And for those wondering, I was doing about 10mph at the time - it was like black ice).

Good luck!

[bothwell_buyer]

OMG !

Don't I just love loss adjusters.....not. I have had dealings with such a breed before and have been warned by Police not to threaten them with challenging their lifespan. Thankfully the police that came out were sympathetic to my argument. Needless to say I didn't get bothered by loss adjuster visits again.

They are a breed of low-lifes who deserve nothing better than shooting (can I say that?) Nothing personal by the way.

First, do everything in writing - don't speak with them - no verbals - no emails - all mail done by special delivery and keep copies of everything.

As said above, you can employ a loss adjuster to work on your behalf but I found that was just getting double trouble and I chased him as well. But you defo need expert opinion on the key situation.

If you have any legal cover insurance, try getting a lawyer (another brand of low-life who exist to fleece the poor) to handle your case.

I guess they are trying to argue that you left a key in the ignition so that they don't need to pay up. If they disbelieve you, then you must have an argument for them questionning your character wrongly.

Document everything so that you can write to the FSA at some point.

We had 2 Ford Transits stolen from the yard our charity rents - the keys were stolen from a locked cabinet and it was an inside job - we knew who stole the keys and the trucks and equipment but the Police were unable to catch anyone - it was a professional hit. However the insurance company paid up in full the purchase price of the trucks anyway - trucks we had bought 6 months earlier. The rest was paid as long as we had the purchase invoice.

I've also had other cars stolen where the keys were never asked for.

If somebody wants to steal your car. they'll do it. Despite immobilisers etc, the systems are relatively primitive and one can download instructions for most sytems for the "www.inickanycar.net" site

I hope you manage to get things sorted without too much more hassle. Remember that the loss adjuster company is on a commission for saving a payout !!

[Big Kev]

As I said, Eileen, welcome t'club,if there was actually such a sport as cricket, we would all be batting for you. And all the foregoing without any input from really old people in the t'Derbyshire hills. (No...not you Guy....that other wee Soul.....)

Big Kev....emigrating

P.S. ......shcm IS actually human....

[bothwell_buyer]

As I said, Eileen, welcome t'club,if there was actually such a sport as cricket, we would all be batting for you. And all the foregoing without any input from really old people in the t'Derbyshire hills. (No...not you Guy....that other wee Soul.....)

Big Kev....emigrating

P.S. ......shcm IS actually human....

It wisnae wan o yer mates frae Springburn whit dun her car wis it? Themns in derbyshire ...guilty through silence???

Cmon - we need the insurance co named.

[Eileen]

Thanks for your kind replies everyone, I'll certainly see if I can have the keys back. The replacement certainly did open the doors, lock them and started the engine. How can they prove it didn't?

For those interested the policy was taken out with Sureterm Direct, underwritten by Chaucer and the investigators are called Brownsword from Manchester.

regards

Eileen

[bothwell_buyer]

Thanks for your kind replies everyone, I'll certainly see if I can have the keys back. The replacement certainly did open the doors, lock them and started the engine. How can they prove it didn't?

For those interested the policy was taken out with Sureterm Direct, underwritten by Chaucer and the investigators are called Brownsword from Manchester.

regards

Eileen

Interesting - these guys deal with 'voice stress analysis' - I have been on the wrong end of this once before and frankly it s a dogpile. Do not speak to them over the phone...no way. As I said before, everything in writing.

I'd be interested if anyone else has had this treatment as I think a case could be raised with the authorities on the legitamacy.

[local hero]

Forgive me Eileen, but what is the problem.. Your car was stolen, your Insured against theft, you did NOT leave your keys in the ignition, Frankly what is this key bulls**t all about, Everytime you take your car for service or you leave your keys with someone does this invalidate your insurance, What a load of Bollix, if they are trying to get out of paying or reduce your payout, you do not want a locksmith or a phensic scientist, (you may need a phensic for the headache they are causing you) you need to get in touch with the insurance Ombudsman SO COME ON EILEEN :shutit: Chin up, this is nonesence Stew

[shcm]

If somebody wants to steal your car. they'll do it. Despite immobilisers etc, the systems are relatively primitive and one can download instructions for most sytems for the "www.inickanycar.net" site

Relatively primitive? Don't you just love unsubstantiated claims! :P. They were relatively primitive to begin with and sometimes there's a hole that has been overlooked but..................anyway, I agree, it doesn't stop towing or lifting, and then the vehicle can be tired to be hacked at their convenience (no toilet humour please!).

P.S. ......shcm IS actually human....

I very often doubt it, then I look at the people I work with and it makes me feel better :D.

Frankly what is this key bulls**t all about

...and it takes the pragmatic approach of Stew, to cut through all the bull and get to the nub of the matter. Well said!

If it's any help, I've not seen inside a standard 2006 key, but, if anybody has pictures of the inside, I can probably have a go at identifying the various circuit bits, to discredit Mr Insurance. Assuming the module is not encased in an inner plastic "frame", which some are, in which case The components would not be visible.

[bothwell_buyer]

If somebody wants to steal your car. they'll do it. Despite immobilisers etc, the systems are relatively primitive and one can download instructions for most sytems for the "www.inickanycar.net" site

Relatively primitive? Don't you just love unsubstantiated claims! :P. They were relatively primitive to begin with and sometimes there's a hole that has been overlooked but..................anyway, I agree, it doesn't stop towing or lifting, and then the vehicle can be tired to be hacked at their convenience (no toilet humour please!).

FAIR POINT BUT IF THEY ARE THAT INFALLIBLE THEN WHY DIDN'T THE ALARM ETC GO OFF?? SURELY IF CREDIT CARDS ARE CLONED IN THEIR MILLIONS, THEN A SIMPLE ALARM SYSTEM CAN BE BEATEN??? AND THE PROOF IS THE MANY MORE EXPENSIVE CARS THAT FIND THEMSELVES IN ALBANIA (source TopGear) B)

[Eileen]

I've been up burning the midnight oil and this should worry everyone!

http://www.mmail.com.my/content/22283-how-steal-toyota

Then do a google search for Toyota Key Maker and this is what you find companies in China bragging about it only taking 20 seconds to add a key to a Toyota security system with a plug in device!

Here's one example for $72

http://www.tradevv.com/chinasuppliers/autocanbus_p_3f940/china-TOYOTA-KEY-Maker-for-4D-chip-price-72USD.html

Thats one to fire back at my insurers.

Eileen

[jps71]

I've been up burning the midnight oil and this should worry everyone!

http://www.mmail.com.my/content/22283-how-steal-toyota

Then do a google search for Toyota Key Maker and this is what you find companies in China bragging about it only taking 20 seconds to add a key to a Toyota security system with a plug in device!

Here's one example for $72

http://www.tradevv.com/chinasuppliers/autocanbus_p_3f940/china-TOYOTA-KEY-Maker-for-4D-chip-price-72USD.html

Thats one to fire back at my insurers.

Eileen

You can get these off eBay for about £25

[Eileen]

I've been up burning the midnight oil and this should worry everyone!

http://www.mmail.com.my/content/22283-how-steal-toyota

Then do a google search for Toyota Key Maker and this is what you find companies in China bragging about it only taking 20 seconds to add a key to a Toyota security system with a plug in device!

Here's one example for $72

http://www.tradevv.com/chinasuppliers/autocanbus_p_3f940/china-TOYOTA-KEY-Maker-for-4D-chip-price-72USD.html

Thats one to fire back at my insurers.

Eileen

You can get these off eBay for about £25

!Removed! ell, you're right thanks a lot

[Davrav]

Eileen, what are the insurance/claims company actually trying to say?

Regardless of whether the replacement key could start the car [have they recovered the car by the way?]you replaced a broken key which you are perfectly entitled to do. Indeed, it would be foolish not to.

In terms of what is reasonable, anyone buying a replacement key would expect to test it. You did, it worked. End of.

Unless they can prove categorically that it wouldn't start the car, and to do that they need the car, then they can't argue that it wouldn't work.

Are they saying you left the keys in the car and got the replacement so that you could make a false claim? If that is the case, do you have a dated receipt for the key? If so that argument is squashed too.

As others have said, if a car thief want's the car, they'll find a way to take it regardless of keys or security systems.

Have your insurance company [who work for you by the way] been as active in tracing the actual car? There are quite a few RAVs of that vintage being broken and advertised on e-bay at the moment..................

[Puma]

Hi Eileen

Sorry to hear of the hassle you are having with your insurance company.

I have changed my standard key fob for a flip key housing bought from flea bay (Rav4 2006 D4D). The transponder is not in the actual key blade it is glued into the key housing. This is easily removed as I have done and reglued into the new housing.

Sounds like your insurance company is trying to pull a "fast one" and I think I would be seeking legal advice on this matter.

I hope it comes to a satisfactory conclusion in your case.

Best Regards

P

[bothwell_buyer]

Interesting to see into Brownsword background...

read

Brownsword - the truth...

Owned by Capita and using really quite old research to validate truth via verbal communication.... I doubt they allow this in Russia outside the KGB or whoever replaced them !!

[Eileen]

Eileen, what are the insurance/claims company actually trying to say?

Regardless of whether the replacement key could start the car [have they recovered the car by the way?]you replaced a broken key which you are perfectly entitled to do. Indeed, it would be foolish not to.

In terms of what is reasonable, anyone buying a replacement key would expect to test it. You did, it worked. End of.

Unless they can prove categorically that it wouldn't start the car, and to do that they need the car, then they can't argue that it wouldn't work.

Are they saying you left the keys in the car and got the replacement so that you could make a false claim? If that is the case, do you have a dated receipt for the key? If so that argument is squashed too.

As others have said, if a car thief want's the car, they'll find a way to take it regardless of keys or security systems.

Have your insurance company [who work for you by the way] been as active in tracing the actual car? There are quite a few RAVs of that vintage being broken and advertised on e-bay at the moment..................

Hello Davrav

The car hasn't been recovered the police have closed the file and I've heard nothing from the insures about it.

The state of play is this, by forensic examination they have found that the spare remote key apparently doesn't match the other remote key somehow. They also question me replacing the plactic housing and having a the blank cut from the other key due to the lock button not working. The replacement was done by a vehicle locksmith who took the old electronics out of the old key along with a small grey chip that was glued in. He gave me a key housing with my old innards that worked the doors and operated the ignition and started the car.

What they are alleging is that the spare key could never have operated the car due to an embedded chip in the blade of the key either missing or the wrong one in my "new" key. I would have to have let the locksmith reprogram the cars engine management to make it work. This he never did and after testing the key I put it away. I know exactly where they are aiming they are going to try and play on the odd key, if there was any foul play why did it take over 10 months between replacing the key and for the car to disappear? They haven't directly accused me of negligence or leaving a key with the car.

From reading other messages and searching the net it looks like what I did is not uncommon.

I am extremely grateful to you all for your valuable assistance, thanks a lot.

Eileen

[jps71]

Have you told them the chip isn't embedded in the blade it is in the plastic head.

[allycomet]

Hi,

Am I missing something here? Surely the vehicle locksmith can confirm that he supplied the new key and let him explain why it wouldn't work.

[Eileen]

Thanks again for the really helpful replies everyone I am truly grateful.

I unfortunately can't find the locksmith he appears to have gone out of business, his phone is permanently on voicemail and it is 13 months since the key was replaced. What I have got is the car body shop that recommended him (I had the bonnet resprayed at the same time) and he remembers me. Isn't hindsight a wonderful thing? If I'd known the car was going to be stolen I'd have kept every reciept.

As regards the chip being in the plastic is great news as that puts them into doubt.

I'm not going to tell them anything until they commit to paper, they've only contacted me by telephone so far and that will now stop.

I'm sorry that this is turning out to be quite a saga, I am however learning quite a lot.

Regards,

Eileen

[allycomet]

Thanks again for the really helpful replies everyone I am truly grateful.

I unfortunately can't find the locksmith he appears to have gone out of business, his phone is permanently on voicemail and it is 13 months since the key was replaced. What I have got is the car body shop that recommended him (I had the bonnet resprayed at the same time) and he remembers me. Isn't hindsight a wonderful thing? If I'd known the car was going to be stolen I'd have kept every reciept.

It was just a thought Eileen.

Hope and expect you will get this resolved successfully. I recently had problems with my insurance company when my son had a bump. I would say that the experience could almost be described as traumatic as the attitude of the investigators was aggressive and unjustified to say the least. Wife was in tears, son was completely bewildered. You would think that he had attempted to steal the crown jewels. However just after we had resigned ourselves that the claim would be rejected a letter appeared to say that it had been approved with no reference at all about the grief they had caused. These people can only be described as parasites making peoples life a misery for having the audacity to make a claim.

[junebug1701]

Apparently, the immobilizer used in Toyotas are fairly easy for the thieves to defeat. Here's an article from Wired and a user post from RAV4WORLD:

Pinch My Ride

How my RAV4 got stolen