Who Has Multimode Transmission Please Answer This

[aygoooo]

If you have an aygo with multimode transmission: is it good at all? Have you found any problems with it? I've been told that most of the people have problems with this mmt. Is it true? What type of problems? And if it's so problematic why dont the manufacturers fix this problem? Thankyou

[Cyker]

I don't have one, but I tried a couple when test-driving Yarissesses and didn't like them much. They are very unrefined; Unless you are accelerating at a glacial pace, the shifts are not very smooth and or the engine tends to scream at you a bit because the shift point is so late.

The only model that I've seen people say good things about the automatic mode is the newer Auris.

The only other people who seem to like the MMT are people that drive it in manual mode all the time

[Jan&tone]

My wife drives our mmt as an auto.... She is slowly getting used to it after normal auto's for 15 years, like a lot of others, I drive it as a manual.... Great fun, fast smooth changes, no clutch pedal to worry about...

Having the choice in a car so cheap is amazing and the road tax is the same as the manual as well unlike other auto's whic are generally in a higher emission band.

[sbarnes]

Absolutely no problems with ours! It is great fun to drive. The only negatives are that it can hunt a bit between 1st and 2nd at low speeds and light throttle, but we love it!

Steve

[S_J_P]

The MMT costs significantly more at the outset

Fuel consumption is worse than a manual (See my Fuely figures)

The "Easy" mode is awful and is rarely in the "right" gear (At a steady 40 on a flat road at light throttle it refuses to use 5th)

Manual mode can be fun

It's clutch slip in 2nd is horrendous (even at 20 mph!!)

Sometimes the hesitancy is frightening making rolling into junctions followed by a quick getaway a complete non starter

It's a semi-automatic system with all the downsides of an proper-auto without the benefits. I'd not get one again

[Parts-King]

Ive had a few MMT Toyota cars, and most of the time, people do not know how to drive them, sorry but that is how it is. The ones I have driven have been superb, querky at first but you need to adjust your driving style as it is different to driving a manual, and also different from an automatic

The car is NOT a semi automatic, it is a standard manual clutch with gearbox, it has an electronic clutch intervention to operate the clutch seemlessly

There have been some issues with the software on older models, newer models dont suffer the original MMT issuses

The best thing to do is go and drive one, book yourself a test drive

Kingo

[Cyker]

Kingo - That *is* what a semi-auto is

You're right in a way tho' - You have to 'learn' how to drive most semi-autos (DSG and things like the Prius eCVT being the only exceptions I've come across) for them to be smooth, but that is partly the problem I have with them.

With manuals and real autos, you can basically drive them any way you want, but you can't do that with an MMT - You can only drive it a certain way or it's *****-city. The thing that totally put me off them was when I was trying to get past a busy roundabout; Pulling away hard had me kangarooing the car like a learner

Toyota should really filter down the fixes they done for the Auris firmwares; I've not tried the MMT in one of those, but as I said they're the only ones people have good things to say about them!

I'm usually making many short trips about in city tho', and manual is the only way to go when you're having to do slow speed manoeuvres a lot.

Trying to do a tight reverse park or turn-in-the-road in a street with cars either side in any auto is so incredibly not-fun (Or even worse, in a car with flappy-paddles! ). Diesel manuals really come into their own in that situation; Don't even have to touch the accelerator - Just good clutch control and cover the brake in case of excessive camber :D

I find in autos and semi autos, you have to ride the brakes so much, and they always have a point where they suddenly give and you have to be so careful not to let it hit that point and jump forward (or backward) into the kerb (or worse yet a car or tree ).

Edit: Oh come on, yerk-with-a-j is a filtered word?!

[Jan&tone]

Trying to do a tight reverse park or turn-in-the-road in a street with cars either side in any auto is so incredibly not-fun (Or even worse, in a car with flappy-paddles! ). Diesel manuals really come into their own in that situation; Don't even have to touch the accelerator - Just good clutch control and cover the brake in case of excessive camber

oh come on Cyker - reverse park or slow manoeuvres in an auto is a piece of cake!!!

no clutch control, just let the idle speed drive the car and cover the brake!!!

what could be simpler?

I've never tried the flappy paddle approach though, last time I came anywhere near it was 60 years ago in the bath!!!

[Parts-King]

Flappy paddles are brilliant, dead easy to use, car changes gear very smoothly, no problem. and I still say MMT is not a semi auto

Kingo

[aygoooo]

thanks for your replies. it seems some have problems and some don't... hmmmmm

[elisetype25]

The MMT box is NOT a semi auto (although like nearly all of todays automatics, it can be driven like one eg. Merc Tiptronic, flappy paddle boxes etc.). A semi auto is a clutchless box which requires a 'manual' input by the driver to change gear.

As Kingo explained it is a manual box with an 'automatic' electronic clutch, (hence it does not require a 'manual' input).

This issue has been covered in this forum many times before. There are 3 schools of opinion with respect to the MMT:

1) Never driven it but heard stories they're not very good = an irrelevant opinion from the opinionated uneducated

2) Have driven and don't like it - fair enough. Ususally because people expect it to be a full auto (torque converter) and drive it accordingly

3) Have driven and think its very clever and have little or no problems with it - these people understand what an automatic electronic clutch on a standard manual box implies and drive accordingly.

You need to ignore 1), and then decide if you are in group 2) or group 3).

Do a search on this forum and you will find a wealth of useful information from people who own and are very happy with these gearboxes.

You don't drive a manual at constant throttle and change gear, because if you do it will not be a smooth ride! The same applies to the MMT. You need to learn how to get the best from these gearboxes and drive them with a degree of mechanical sympathy to how they are designed.

My only criticism after 50k miles of entirely trouble free motoring is that they can be a little keen to change down to first at low speeds. But it is also worth remembering you can drive them as a semi-automatic if you wish (where you control when to change gear)

This means you can have the best of both worlds: a semi-auto when required such as spirited driving/twisty B roads/hills and valleys (the gearbox cannot see, therefore it has difficulty anticipating road conditions, it relies on you to provide that input and this is paticularly relevant in a relatively low powered, small engined car such as the Aygo); and an automatic when in heavy traffic and pootling along.

If you can understand the basic principles by which the box works and are happy to learn how to drive them, they are very rewarding and, in my experiemce, extremely reliable gearboxes.

The best advise is to try one, even better advise is to try one with someone who knows how to drive them (if you do this you will be impressed).

Regards, Neil

[daveyjp]

Smarts have a similar box and I agree with neil - how many of us have ever had a lesson in how to drive any sort of automatic car? Without knowing how to drive one you can quickly come to hate them.

The other issue is if they develop a problem finding a garage outside of the dealer network can be tricky, so you end up paying top whack rates to get them fixed.

[Cyker]

Trying to do a tight reverse park or turn-in-the-road in a street with cars either side in any auto is so incredibly not-fun (Or even worse, in a car with flappy-paddles! ). Diesel manuals really come into their own in that situation; Don't even have to touch the accelerator - Just good clutch control and cover the brake in case of excessive camber

oh come on Cyker - reverse park or slow manoeuvres in an auto is a piece of cake!!!

no clutch control, just let the idle speed drive the car and cover the brake!!!

what could be simpler?

I've never tried the flappy paddle approach though, last time I came anywhere near it was 60 years ago in the bath!!!

Flappy isn't too bad if it's fixed to the steering column (i.e. doesn't move) but if it's attached to the wheel (Like almost all of them ) and you have to flick between reverse and forward and back it's insanely awkward!

As for the slow manoeuvres, maybe it's different when the brakes are a bit worn in, but on cars with really sharp brakes (e.g. my dad's old merc and the new cars I'd tested!) I found the manoeuvres really hard to do because the brakes would bite really sharply and trying to get them to slide slowly but smoothly was very tricky.

With semi-autos, I also have the additional worry I'm wearing out the tiny friction plates!! (I'm really bad at those slow manoeuvres :( )

On a slight tangent, what would you MMT-is-not-a-semi-auto people consider to be a semi auto?

I consider the a 'real' auto box to be ones that use Torque-converters (Super smooth! Not so great for fuel economy)

I class anything that uses standard gears and a computer controlled clutch to be semi-automatic (So MMT, Tiptronic, DSG, formula 1, WRC etc.).

And manual is manual :)

CVTs are in their own class, although there are different types (The Prius/HSD being the only one that doesn't suck, although strictly speaking I shouldn't call that a CVT but and eCVT )

I don't know of any other gearing types on cars which could be this other sort of semi-auto!

[elisetype25]

If you read my earlier post you will see a perfectly clear description of a semi-auto gearbox.

I will clarify again:

A semi-auto is a gearbox without a manually activated clutch which requires a manual input to change it. This means that in effect a flappy paddle gearbox IS a semi-auto. Most if not all automatic gearboxes can be driven as a semi-auto by selecting the gears yourself (such as manual mode on the MMT or tiptronic or similar).

Cars which can change gear themselves without this human input are called automatics (so technically the MMT IS an automatic). The reason people don't describe them as such is because people get confused between electronically operated manauals (of which DSG and MMT are examples) and torque converters (also known as the 'slush' box due to the hydraulic nature of operation).

Hope this clarifies.

It still doesn't change the fact that flappy paddles, DSG (very clever things!!), MMT, CVT (we can look back at the old variomatics and other variants onn the theme) or traditional autos are all very different things to drive and offer a different solution (compromise) to same problem, and it is worth understanding this and how you might wish to adapt your driving style to get the best from each.

Regards, Neil

[Geriatric]

The first posting above by elisetype25 is a fair summing up of the MMT box. The gear ratios are the same as the manual box and the big jump from 1 to 2 and 2 to 1 can sometimes be a bit jerky and is made worse with a three cylinder engine.

This applies to the manual box as well.

The Auris MMT is a different 6 speed box and has creep built in to make things easier. It is not a strong creep like in a torque convertor box but I think it does make manoeuvering on the flat very easy.

On the MMT box on the straight or down hill you can start in second by pulling the lever into gear in manual mode and it will stay in second until you come to a stop. I have not experienced any problems with clutch engagement by starting in second and do not believe it results in much extra wear. The creep in the Auris is after all achieved by a partially engaged clutch. There is no problem in changing from manual mode to auto mode or vice versa at any time and if you feel it could be pulling a higher gear a quick change to manual and up the gears to fifth and then back to auto and it will stay there or come down if it is under too much load.

I would certainly give it a trial.

[aygoooo]

thanks neil very helpful and you're right. my view of the mmt is very different now.

[Cyker]

I will clarify again:

A semi-auto is a gearbox without a manually activated clutch which requires a manual input to change it. This means that in effect a flappy paddle gearbox IS a semi-auto. Most if not all automatic gearboxes can be driven as a semi-auto by selecting the gears yourself (such as manual mode on the MMT or tiptronic or similar).

Cars which can change gear themselves without this human input are called automatics (so technically the MMT IS an automatic). The reason people don't describe them as such is because people get confused between electronically operated manauals (of which DSG and MMT are examples) and torque converters (also known as the 'slush' box due to the hydraulic nature of operation).

Hope this clarifies.

You do realize that all flappy-paddle systems use the same kind of tech as MMT (i.e. normal 'manual' gearbox with computer-controlled clutch), right?

But I see where we're crossing wires; Your definition of semi auto is any gearbox where you have to change gears yourself BUT you don't have to do the clutch.

The problem is your definition of automatic seems to be any vehicle which will switch gears without human intervention, but this would include every gearbox except for true manuals which makes the semi-auto classification rather moot since every gearbox that you don't need to do the clutch will also shift automatically!

I consider a semi-auto to be a gearbox which can be used in automatic or manual mode, while a true auto can only be used in automatic mode, and I think this is a more common usage of these terms.

So to me, semi-auto includes MMT and DSG-style systems but excludes 'true-auto' torque-converter boxes (You can't pick the gear; You can limit it but not pick a specific gear) and things like CVT/eCVTs.

[elisetype25]

I consider a semi-auto to be a gearbox which can be used in automatic or manual mode, while a true auto can only be used in automatic mode, and I think this is a more common usage of these terms.

So to me, semi-auto includes MMT and DSG-style systems but excludes 'true-auto' torque-converter boxes (You can't pick the gear; You can limit it but not pick a specific gear) and things like CVT/eCVTs.

I shall put aside your rather condescending comment regarding my understanding of DSG and reiterate why you are so plainly wrong. In your own words you are defining the concept of semi-automatic with 'I think' or 'So to me'.

You have correctly identified the critical element of the definition ie. a semi-auto requires user to select the gear, auto does not. This is not my opinion, this is the definition of the term. This does mean that to define a modern gearbox as an auto or semi-auto is to misunderstand and misrepresent the concept.

The simple fact is that the semi-automatic does not define the mechanical operation of the gearbox in any other way other than the need for a manual input from the operator. Therefore semi-automatic operation of a gearbox, whether DSG, MMT or another design, is the correct use of the term, rather than defining a particular gearbox as semi-automatic (although genuinely semi-automatic gearboxes, ie. those incapable of fully automated operation, have existed in the past).

If you decide this does not conform with your personal misrepresentative view of the world then there is very little point in arguing the point any further. What I would ask is that if you insist on defining the world from your own personal point of view then please refrain from posting these opinions as fact on public forums where they will misinform those requesting help and advice with an open mind and a willingness to learn.

Regards, Neil

PS Happy to help Aygooo, apologies if I have contributed to taking the original intent of your post off topic. I don't tend to post very often on internet forums and only tend to do so when I have something constructive to offer.

PPS Cyker apologies if my post appears confrontational. Internet forums are not a good format for driving to a consensus as subtleties of language and context are easily misunderstood. I admit, however, that I get annoyed when opinions are expressed as fact, especially when the OP is seeking help and clarification. The fact that you chose to correct Kingo telling him (when he was right) what a semi-auto is (when you were wrong - albeit, arguably, on a technicality) was a perfect example of this.

[Jan&tone]

Children, children!

I won't pretend to know the technical descriptions of semi or no, as far as I know DSG is the French equivalent of our MI5 !

The OP asked for information about MMT - Yes MMT boxes, that is Multi Mode Transmission, he didn't ask for lectures about semi automatics!

Multi Mode Transmission gearboxes are just that, Multi Mode.

Either wiggle the wiggly stick around all the time without using a clutch pedal, or use the wiggly stick at the beginning and end of your journey, again without using your left foot.

Simples!

[elisetype25]

Sorry Mom, sorry Dad.

Can I go out and play now?

The sun is shining, F1 is back - Have a great weekend everyone!

N.

PS. Hang on a minute, I'm watching qualifying - they ARE all semi automatics.

[Linnett]

I bought the Aygo Go MMT last month which replaced a Hyundai i10 automatic.

It is quite different from driving a proper automatic but once you get used to it, it is great.

For me the benefits far outweigh the disadvantages.

For one the petrol consumption is so much better.

The i10 had the same size fuel tank and I used to get 250 miles to a tank. The Aygo MMT I get around 400 miles per tank. This represents quite a saving with fuel the price it now is.

We live in the Welsh Valleys and it does hunt for gears and I used to drive it manually around here until I got onto less hilly curvy roads. However, I now use MMT all the time as once you are used to it it just gets better.

[frizzy]

No problems at all with ours, 1st service less than quoted ... £96.00. ... and no returns to the garage. All you need to remember is that it is a little engine and when approaching very steep hills I will use the manual mode, but that is no problem.

If you have an aygo with multimode transmission: is it good at all? Have you found any problems with it? I've been told that most of the people have problems with this mmt. Is it true? What type of problems? And if it's so problematic why dont the manufacturers fix this problem? Thankyou

[minaswat1]

avoid it if you can, i got one of these and it is a nightmare cven after getting a whole new system from toyota, i still feel that MMT computer is a bit thick!

[Unklian]

avoid it if you can, i got one of these and it is a nightmare cven after getting a whole new system from toyota, i still feel that MMT computer is a bit thick!

That's why humans run the world, not MMT gearboxes.

They're very clever and I love mine but it can't see hills coming or know your

intention is to gradually slow for a roundabout, then, change your mind and floor the throttle.

It's just a car gearbox. Sometimes it needs a bit of help.

People expect miracles from cars these days (I'm sounding like an old duffer).

Automatic lights, automatic wipers, hill start assist, reverse sensors etc.

People are forgetting how to drive and expect a lttle shopping car to be perfect.

MMT is very good but not perfect.

I chose MMT because my left arm doesn't work 100% due to a bike accident

I was in a few years ago. I accept it's not as good as human judgement,

but poor human judgment is why I had the accident in the first place.

Accept it for what it is, and the Aygo MMT is a great little car.

You don't have to keep pressing your left foot up & down

or waving your left arm about after making judgements about

revs / torque / gearing / throttle position / speed / acceleration etc.

Ian.

[dbtee]

I have driven over 60,000 miles with no problems. Just remember it is an automated manual gearbox so a different driving style is needed from a conventional automatic gearbox. You need to lift off the revs as the box changes (like a manual). I like it but on a short test drive it may feel a bit strange.