Any Previous German Car Owner?

[alvinsu]

Hi, I am looking to buy my next car, currently drive a mx-5. But need more space.

Just wondering if anyone drives a German car, say BMW 3 series or audi a4? What so u think of them compared to the prius ? They are in my shortlist atm.

Thanks.

[Karma Supra]

I have an E46 M3.

What do you need to know?

[Jan&tone]

Hi, I am looking to buy my next car, currently drive a mx-5. But need more space.

Just wondering if anyone drives a German car, say BMW 3 series or audi a4? What so u think of them compared to the prius ? They are in my shortlist atm.

Thanks.

No comparison. Buy the Prius.

Well, what else did you expect on the Prius forum

Having said that, both the BMW and the Audi come with automatic exemption from speed limits and courtesy, so that may be something to think about...

[alvinsu]

Hi karma, I guess it is really just general comparison. Such as comfort, handling, build quality, running cost etc.

Obviously a m3 is several classes above prius. Maybe 318 or 320d is a more suitable comparison

[Mooly]

Having owned two Audis I wouldn't go near a German car. I had a post on here about it but can't find it.

Riddled with electrical issues, cabin quality appeared good but bits self destructed... such as cup holders (not that I ever use them) as the plastics were under so much tension with the soft damping. Suspension faults, suspension creaking, disintegrating gaitors, air con evaporator failed, central locking, both front electric windows failed... one motor... other the mechanism broke. Creaky pedals, accelerator pedal pad "fell off", heated mirrors last a month before elements fail, reversing light switch, oil leaks.

Good points... no rattles and excellent bodywork.

That was A4 bought new.

Obviously being totally mad I bought another Audi, an A2. That lasted three weeks before major engine failure... I got a full refund on the new price.

The motoring press shows no change to me, serious issues that cost mega bucks to fix such as ABS faults etc etc etc.

My old Carina II was essentially trouble free over nearly 6 years apart from battery/exhaust.

My TSport gave 8 years totally trouble free apart from a leaky shock absorber.

Touch wood... current Auris is the best of the lot to date....

Edit... and the horn failed on the A4, and the heated washer jets, and the fuel guage had a bad earth giving wild readings. The blower motor developed a squeek. It burned oil.

There was just so much... it keeps coming back to me :)

[alvinsu]

Hi Mooly sorry to hear about your troubled experience from the A4.

One of the reason I am considering the Prius is for the reliability. Since most members of my family drives or have driven Japanese cars (Mazda 6, Mazda mx-5, Toyota Corolla, Lexus LS430, Honda Jazz, Honda accord etc), and have had good experiences. In fact none of them have ever broken down as far as I know.

Now I always thought that the BMWs / Audis are quite close to the Japanese in turns of reliability, after all they are "made in Germany". Not having owned one before I can't really comment hence seeking advise.

Still quite tempted by the BMW 318 / 320D though..But also quite like the high tech of Prius.

[Mooly]

Hi alvinsu, I see and have seen far to many tales of woe in the press (Honest John motoring correspondent Daily Telegraph) to ever consider Audi/Seat/VW/Skoda/Merc/BMW. Car reviewers rave over them... but they don't keep them a few years and find the expensive problems. One issue that keeps coming up is ABS failure and the unit is around £1500 to repair. It's affecting many makes and models.

Although the showroom appeal is sky high the reality is (in my experience) different.

More things I remembered on the A4. New oil pump (recall, could cause an hydraulic lock and self distruct the engine), a harmonic balancer had to be fitted (another recall) to stop cambelt/camshaft failure. Brake pads replaced (dealer recall for poor performance in certain conditions). Boot light switch never worked correctly, it was a tilt switch and weight in the lid... open lid gently and it wouldn't operate. Thermostat stuck open. The central console ashtray (I don't smoke) flew apart, all the gears and plastic in bits, again all under to much static stress.

It's all coming back to me, I'm sure I'll think of more :)

[Mooly]

Found the original, post #2

http://www.toyotaownersclub.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=102760

[bobm]

before I bought my second PRIUS..I had three Merc Benz cars the last one I traded in for my first Prius with only 15k on the clock.....the reason.....so many problems with Merc C 2OOO Komp.....and the final straw a £600 main service........never regreted the Prius purchase (as yet) although some niggle points with it as have all other owners..........

[Karma Supra]

Well it depends slightly on age as well.

I always maintain (and still do) they older (late 80s early 90s) cars were simply built better, and built to last. Coming from a background of 5 supras from that period and a couple of soarers... and three mr2s I came to the general conclusion that the M3 (2003) was better engineered, but made out of poorer materials, the plastics flex and wear more. This may not necessarily be a function of cost cutting, but environment <the spuds of lurrrrvve>s that restrict the manufacturing process, recyclable dash boards etc, and is probably true of most modern cars.

I will also say that some “luxury” fittings wear more, i.e. the ultra soft Nappa lamb leather seats of the M3 wear terribly, compared to “tough as old boots” cow leather, but I think most of the none M cars have the cow.

Reliability? I have had it three years, covered about 30k miles including two Nurburgring trips. I live out in the sticks and the roads are really bad, as a result I have had to replace a rear spring (BMW replaced it FOC despite the car being out of warranty) and a front ball joint/lower arm. I’d not say that is too bad! (not including tyres and brakes as they take a hammering on tracks)...

Plus we all know that an M3 has better MPG than a Prius! Top Gear proved it!

[EcoMan]

Hi, I am looking to buy my next car, currently drive a mx-5. But need more space.

Just wondering if anyone drives a German car, say BMW 3 series or audi a4? What so u think of them compared to the prius ? They are in my shortlist atm.

Thanks.

I've had a few BMWs (3 and 5 series). It's not a fair comparison with the Prius really. I suppose the common points between the Prius and some BMWs are: 5 seats and a boot. The big plus on the Prius is its mpg and exemption from congestion charge and road tax and very low insurance.

But, the BMWs are heavier/more solid and engineered to make driving (fast or very fast) a pleasure. Though not unsafe, the Prius has very bad road handling characteristics if going above about 40 mph: steering is not great and the weight distribution makes it a bit unstable in my experience.

Interior comfort is fine on the Prius for driver and passengers (my family have never complained), tho the seats are not a patch on some of the expensive seats that can be had in a BMW.

I'd recommend spending some proper time test driving a few Priuses - the way it responds to throttle pedal input is very different to a "normal" car due its energy-saving bias: the car goes on electric motor first and, if you keep applying the throttle aggressively, brings in the petrol motor too, which can take a bit of getting used to.

Also: there's the general experience - as a generalisation, BMW drivers can attract a fair bit of hostility on the road, but nothing exceptional. But, I've found that it's nothing compared to some of the ridiculously aggressive antics that the Prius incites.

I wouldn't have the Prius as my only car, but it's a great commuting car for the city and a good cheapish family runaround.

[alvinsu]

before I bought my second PRIUS..I had three Merc Benz cars the last one I traded in for my first Prius with only 15k on the clock.....the reason.....so many problems with Merc C 2OOO Komp.....and the final straw a £600 main service........never regreted the Prius purchase (as yet) although some niggle points with it as have all other owners..........

Hi Bobm, could you elaborate on what the niggle points are?

[alvinsu]

Hi, I am looking to buy my next car, currently drive a mx-5. But need more space.

Just wondering if anyone drives a German car, say BMW 3 series or audi a4? What so u think of them compared to the prius ? They are in my shortlist atm.

Thanks.

I've had a few BMWs (3 and 5 series). It's not a fair comparison with the Prius really. I suppose the common points between the Prius and some BMWs are: 5 seats and a boot. The big plus on the Prius is its mpg and exemption from congestion charge and road tax and very low insurance.

But, the BMWs are heavier/more solid and engineered to make driving (fast or very fast) a pleasure. Though not unsafe, the Prius has very bad road handling characteristics if going above about 40 mph: steering is not great and the weight distribution makes it a bit unstable in my experience.

Interior comfort is fine on the Prius for driver and passengers (my family have never complained), tho the seats are not a patch on some of the expensive seats that can be had in a BMW.

I'd recommend spending some proper time test driving a few Priuses - the way it responds to throttle pedal input is very different to a "normal" car due its energy-saving bias: the car goes on electric motor first and, if you keep applying the throttle aggressively, brings in the petrol motor too, which can take a bit of getting used to.

Also: there's the general experience - as a generalisation, BMW drivers can attract a fair bit of hostility on the road, but nothing exceptional. But, I've found that it's nothing compared to some of the ridiculously aggressive antics that the Prius incites.

I wouldn't have the Prius as my only car, but it's a great commuting car for the city and a good cheapish family runaround.

Thanks a lot EcoMan, your comments have made me wanting a bit more towards a BMW 318 or 320D now.. Since coming from a MX-5 I value "driving pleasure" quite a lot.

Based on your previous experience, how do you rate the BMW's dealer service (seems you also live in London?), and how's the running cost compared to the Prius (not just fuel but general maintenance like service, repairs etc)

[EcoMan]

Thanks a lot EcoMan, your comments have made me wanting a bit more towards a BMW 318 or 320D now.. Since coming from a MX-5 I value "driving pleasure" quite a lot.

Based on your previous experience, how do you rate the BMW's dealer service (seems you also live in London?), and how's the running cost compared to the Prius (not just fuel but general maintenance like service, repairs etc)

I can only judge running costs for the 1st year of owning each car from new - comparing the 325i that I had against the Prius leaves the Prius being about £100-£150 cheaper to service. My impression is that the general maintenance cost of the Prius is generally cheaper than BMW 3 series. I've only owned my Prius for just over a year so can't say how expensive things might start getting at Toyota when the "newness" wears off, but I can say that BMWs become very expensive to run once outside the 3 year honeymoon period. Parts can be ludicrously expensive and labour rates are very, very high. As for repairs, my m3 sustained some side impact damage when some kind soul drove into me - scraped driver's door (which did perforate the metal slightly at the door frame), rear quarter scraped, rear alloy scraped: cost of repair £3k. (It was an m3, but doubt the 325 would have cost much less to repair at BMW) As for the Prius, if it helps (probably not), the dealer warned me when selling the car to me that if it took a fairly nasty hit, it would be written off very easily as the hybrid stuff is so expensive to fix/replace.

Levels of dealer service in and around London vary massively in my experience (even at the same dealership) - some very bad, some very good. I had some good work done at BMW Park Lane. But have started taking my BMWs outside London to Cooper in Kent and they've been fine.

If the emphasis is to be on driving pleasure, the extra cost of the BMW is worth it IMHO. I suggest test driving a 320D or 318 and then, on the same day, getting into a Prius.

Enjoy the hunt!

[bobm]

Hi, the niggles are well reported on this website...rattles, sat nav issues to start with........

[Jan&tone]

Ecoman wrote:

quote

But, the BMWs are heavier/more solid and engineered to make driving (fast or very fast) a pleasure. Though not unsafe, the Prius has very bad road handling characteristics if going above about 40 mph: steering is not great and the weight distribution makes it a bit unstable in my experience.

Unquote

Sorry mate, i have found both my Prius' gen2 and gen3 to be rock solid on motorways, if you think they, for some reason, are unsafe over 40mph firstly why are you still driving it, you should have taken it back to Mr T, and secondly you are welcome to come out with me on some of the country roads locally where both have been as solid as on motorways and very nimble in the country.

The Prius doesn't drive like other cars, that is what attracts us to it!

The top gear test I didn't see, but from what i heard both the m3 and the gen2 had a full tank of petrol and the m3 went further?. Not really surprising, the m3 has a larger gas tank! For economy a Prius should only be compared with another PETROL automatic.

If you include Insurance, road tax, congestion charge (if you live in or near London) there is presently no competition.

Alvinsu,

My comment at the beginning of these posts still stands, take a Prius out on a test drive, then buy it. You won't get any of the hostility that BMW drivers attract by their, generally, obnoxious behaviour on the roads. Not all of them i know, but enough to tar the rest of them with the same brush!

There are a number of niggles that have been aired elsewhere on this forum, personally I have had no problems with either of my Prius nor any other Toyota that I have owned over the last 20-odd years.

you asked about servicing, I have a service plan, 3 year servicing plus the first MOT 14 quid a month for 30 months. 5 year warranty.

[Karma Supra]

The top gear test was X many laps around a track lapping at exactly the same rate, and compare how much fuel was used to do so and calculate the MPG.

Prius resulted in lower MPG as it was having to work harder to lap at that pace.

[Ancient Nerd]

The top gear test was X many laps around a track lapping at exactly the same rate, and compare how much fuel was used to do so and calculate the MPG.

Prius resulted in lower MPG as it was having to work harder to lap at that pace.

Not surprising really. It was a typical Top Gear joke. High and constant speed are the worst possible combination for a hybrid. No regen, driving (IIRC) at near maximum speed, and carrying a heavy load (battery) that doesn't do anything.

I think I've posted more than once that if most of our driving is on jam-free motorways and dual carriageways, then buy a diesel. It's ideal for these conditions.

On the other hand, in mixed town and city traffic/ A roads/ Fen roads /overtaking tractors etc., the Prius wins hands down.

However, although the Prius is no milk float, if you want excitement rather than relaxed driving then it's not for you.

[Gmac70]

I believe the top gear test was also with a gen 2 so the owe powered 1.4 which was probably working very hard to maintain 75 around the track.

The car programme on channel 5 gave the Prius gen 3 a good review

[Grumpy Cabbie]

How about driving the same two cars at a steady 55 mph down an A road as most people would on a commute and see which gets the best mpg's? Oh no, the Prius would win.

Or as bigger engines are better (apparantly) why not pit a BMW M3 against a HGV and see which can pull the heaviest load? Lets see which can tow 40 tons 100 miles at 50 mph and see who actually makes it and who uses the least fuel.

Clarkson was just doing a stunt to confirm his hate of the Prius (and probably all it stands for lol) and hey if I was on 4 million quid a year I'd be driving an 6 litre V12 AMG as a taxi. Having driven one in a previous job, I once drove it 3 miles each way to a garage to fill it and got an average consumption of 3.7 mpg! So it would cost nearly £10 for that short journey. It was fast though

[Doesn'tExist]

thing is if you want a bmw you should get a bmw. The problem I've found is that on none of the German brands you can spec the eco models up like you can with the Prius or the Lexus CT200h. Firstly they don't do an automatic and secondly you can't get the creature comforts.

I own an Audi Quattro Convertible and yes it is a very different experience. However that is what it is, it is different. Comparing the BMW rear wheel drive to any front wheel drive vehicle will show up major handling differences, I've had many a BMW.

But interior space wise you should really compare the prius to an Passat petrol automatic or a A6 petrol automatic or a 5 series petrol automatic for a more equal comparison in interior cabin space. You just don't get the same amount of useable rear space in an a4, 3 series, golf etc.