Clutch Slipping

[eeoo]

Can someone please give me advise on my wife multi mode aygo, the car got the 3nd yr service(only 20,147 miles) carry out by Arnold Clark the official dealer in glasgow last week, was told the clutch slipping but warranty not cover that part. I told them I have had a manual aygo got the clutch changed around 22,000 miles in 2nd yr but warranty covered why multi mode not(warranty expire end of this month), then they told me lot of technical terms I totally don't understand. But IF I insist to know the warranty cover or not, they can carry out the work to take the gear box out (something like that) check if the fault is cover by toyota, then I will be ok nothing to pay, but if not I have to pay around 800 - 1,000 pounds for the job. Does anyone has the same problem on their multi mode aygo or any good advise should I take this risk?? Is Aygo so weak in the clutch box same as our 2 aygo ??? tks

[Unklian]

Can someone please give me advise on my wife multi mode aygo, the car got the 3nd yr service(only 20,147 miles) carry out by Arnold Clark the official dealer in glasgow last week, was told the clutch slipping but warranty not cover that part. I told them I have had a manual aygo got the clutch changed around 22,000 miles in 2nd yr but warranty covered why multi mode not(warranty expire end of this month), then they told me lot of technical terms I totally don't understand. But IF I insist to know the warranty cover or not, they can carry out the work to take the gear box out (something like that) check if the fault is cover by toyota, then I will be ok nothing to pay, but if not I have to pay around 800 - 1,000 pounds for the job. Does anyone has the same problem on their multi mode aygo or any good advise should I take this risk?? Is Aygo so weak in the clutch box same as our 2 aygo ??? tks

Something I've always been concerned about with my MMT

As you have no control over how agressive the cluth is used with the MMT,

they can't blame you for "abusing" the clutch.

Im my opinion, any clutch should last at minimum, 50000 miles, even in a high performance car.

Clutch failure at 20000 miles when it is in the car's control OUGHT to be covered.

I don't believe it is as straightforward to replace as a "Normal" clutch.

After the mechanical parts have been done, Toyota have to (I believe) re-program or reset it somehow.

I also believe there is some procedure to be carried out before work starts.

Please keep us informed as I would like to know the replacement costs.(Just in case).

Also, I'd like to know if the MMT clutch is replaced with the MkII stronger 190mm clutch.

Cheers.

Ian.

[ihpj]

Sounds like Arnold Shark alright - f***ing th**ving s**m.

The issue here is that as the clutch is wholly integral and controlled by the car itself - if it is slipping then surely it has to be a warranty issue as you can't cause it to wear as you can on a manual.

I wouldn't stand for it myself...

[Jan van de Wouw]

£800 to £1000 for a clutch-job? Even with the extra programming of the

computer I'd never pay more that about £500, else I'd feel ripped off...

I had the clutch in my Nissan 100NX done a couple of months before I

had to PX it, cost me less than £400 and they did it within 4 hours...

[Unklian]

£800 to £1000 for a clutch-job? Even with the extra programming of the

computer I'd never pay more that about £500, else I'd feel ripped off...

I had the clutch in my Nissan 100NX done a couple of months before I

had to PX it, cost me less than £400 and they did it within 4 hours...

While I was in for a recent service I asked for a ball-park figure and "about £800"

was mentioned. At that price I thought I'd attempt it myself.

Then I wondered About the 190mm clutch swap and don't know if it is compatible with the MMT

Then I heard about the "shutting -down" procedure.

Then I heard about the software / learning.

Then......I started driving more gently and more in the Manual mode.

Just can't get a straight answer about the clutch wearing out

quickly by Toyota's own software / clutch quality which I have no control over.

Touchwood, there haven't been a string of MMT clutch replacement threads.

Yet.

Ian.

EDIT: Wonder what happens if you DO change the clutch yourself,

gears won't select due to software and you go to Toyota?

Would they just charge you for a software / set-up proceedure?

[eeoo]

Thankyou guys very useful knowledge on MMT, I ve the exact quote for the job,

Labour 273+ Clutch 220+ Gear oil 20 + VAT = 615.60,

they did mention if the clutch found burn out the bill is mine otherwise Toyota liable for all.

I still don't understand why a auto car can burn out the clutch in 20K miles, my wife drive 3 miles to work and 3 miles back a day can burn out the clutch, what a shame of Toyota Aygo MMT, even my manual Aygo changed new clutch at 21K miles.

But I have no choice booked in next week for the job, will let you know whats goin on.

Cheers

[mrpj]

As mentioned in post 3. Arnold C does have a really bad reputation! Whether deserved or not I don't know having never had any dealings with them. http://www.reviewcentre.com/reviews67375.html

Not an Aygo, I realise, but before ordering my MMT Yaris I specifically asked the salesman about the clutch being covered with the warranty because unlike a "full" manual the driver has little control over the operation or abuse of the clutch. e.g. slipping it to hold on a hill, resting the left foot on the pedal etc. Now we all hopefully know that sales people tell porkies from time to time to close a sale but he said no one had asked that question before and he went away to find out. On returning he quite categorically told me, with a witness to the remark, a MMT clutch failure in the warranty period would be covered.

Your car must be still warranted or just outside the period, I'd have a go at Toyota GB before paying out. If the car has been main dealer serviced they must surely have some responsibility?

[Cyker]

All auto clutches are more expensive to fix than normal manual clutches, but they should deffo last a lot longer as they shouldn't have to deal with anywhere near as much slipping as a normal clutch.

I'd think 20k should be a warranty job as it's not like you are causing the clutch to slip and wear out prematurely!

Just be glad it's not a DSG; I've seen quotes of £4000 to get those repaired!!

[daveyjp]

I had a warranty repair on a DSG gearbox and the part was £1500 - total repair cost was over £3,000.

BTW you can burn out an MMT clutch easily - not applying the handbrake and riding the clutch to remain stationary is the usual suspect. I've seen many smart clutches burnt out this way.

DSG will shut down if the clutches start overheating by drivers riding the clutch.

[mrpj]

"DSG will shut down if the clutches start overheating by drivers riding the clutch".

As does the MMT, so there is some protection from "abuse", shut down and warning light, try again in 15 minutes.

It wouldn't surprise me if these events, i.e. high clutch temp. are "stored" somewhere and on interrogation of the relevant system ecu they show up. In that case Toyota surely would have every right to refuse warranty repairs, possibly allowing for the very occasional transgression, a long time in slow, stop start traffic for example!?

[Unklian]

"DSG will shut down if the clutches start overheating by drivers riding the clutch".

As does the MMT, so there is some protection from "abuse", shut down and warning light, try again in 15 minutes.

I Believe the MMT doesn't have a temperature sensor but......

works out if the clutch is being "abused" somehow.

Last winter, a bloke was trying to climb a nearby ice covered

hill in a Yaris MMT. Eventually, It refused to try. (Smelled really bad).

I suggested turning off completely in the hope stuff might reset.

He did this and the Yaris started to try again.

Eventually, he gave up due to road conditions.

As to whether this info is stored, it wouldn't surprise me.

Ian.

[Cyker]

Wait, how can you ride the clutch in an auto?!

[Unklian]

Wait, how can you ride the clutch in an auto?!

The MMT isn't a true auto with torque converter etc.

It's a computer controlled normal Aygo gearbox.

Instead on the manual's selector cables & foot clutch, It has 3 servo motors.

1 for forwards / backwards gear stick movements, 1 for accross the gate gearchanges &

1 to operate the clutch. All controlled by computer.

It will slip the clutch, just like a human driver.

eg. hill starts, it will slip it more than downhill starts.

A feature of this 'box so that it "feels" like a conventional auto is "creep".

If you take your foot off the brake, it will slightly engage the clutch to allow you to creep along in traffic.

This will burn out a MMT clutch just as it will, a badly treated manual gearbox.

Personaly, I wait till the car in front has moved away then set off until the clutch is fully engaged

then try to maintain at least walking pace so that the clutch isn't slipping.

MMT is a very clever compromise.

Some like it, some don't.

Ian.

EDIT: The worst possible thing you can do with this gearbox is trickle along

really, really slowly, engine on tickover slipping the clutch while you control the cars

speed with the brake pedal. Drivers of conventional automatics can happily do this due to

the gearboxes being totally different. It is like driving a manual car and holding it

on the clutch for ages at every uphill junction. It will cook & die. (Like a Lobster).

EDIT2: It is NOT manual, it is NOT automatic, it is MMT.

It should be driven with the understanding it is different.

Like if you go from a petrol to diesel or vice versa,

RWD to FWD, LHD to RHD, you must adapt slightly. You can then get the best out of it.

[Cyker]

Yeah I know what the MMT is, I should have said that instead of auto (Blame that on all the people insisting I call the the MMT an auto XD)

But I'm a bit shocked at what you're saying about the MMT.

Let me clarify this tho'; Are you saying that if the car is in D and you're idling along with your foot off the accelerator it's constantly slipping the clutch until you press the accelerator by some unknown amount to make it fully engage?!

I really hope I misunderstood that as that is a really stupid design decision.

It would explain why that other guy's MMT needs fixing at 20k tho'!

In all the other semi-autos I've driven, they only slipped during gear change, OR if I forced it below idle speeds by gently braking. If I braked more, I'd feel the car je-rk a tiny bit as the semi-auto disengages the clutch completely.

If I just put it in D and left go of the foot brake it'd transition to 1st gear and then idle along, fully engaged, like you would in a manual.

It definitely should not slip when idling along, even when crawling in traffic, unless you are lightly braking! (In which case any premature wear *would* be the fault of the driver; Even in conventional autos this is bad as you wear the brakes unnecessarily and will shorten the life of the (Very expensive!) torque converter)

I frequently idle along in 1st without touching the accelerator so I don't see any reason why the MMT would have to slip at idle other than when it's transitioning from neutral to 1st!

Edit: Damnit forum filter,je-rk is not a swear word!!

[Unklian]

It definitely should not slip when idling along, even when crawling in traffic, unless you are lightly braking! (In which case any premature wear *would* be the fault of the driver; Even in conventional autos this is bad as you wear the brakes unnecessarily and will shorten the life of the (Very expensive!) torque converter)

Edit: Damnit forum filter,je-rk is not a swear word!!

Cracked it in one.

Say at 800rpm, (tickover)the clutch is fully engaged, the car will trickle along at say 6mph.

If you keep you foot on the brake and maintain say 3mph up a long hill in traffic, The clutch will be forced to slip.

The Aygo wont run at 400rpm.

just like maintaining 3mph in a manual.

As you say, this is bad for the brakes and in a conventional auto will bring the transmission fluid

to extreme temperatures. :ffs:

People could perhaps be given a little advice about this.

I've no doubt that I could drive at 60mph in 2nd gear all day at 6500rpm

but I'd rather change up. a little mechanical sympathy is all it takes.

Ian.

[Cyker]

Phew, that's a relief! :D

But yeah, I shake my head when people trail behind crawling traffic like that (Well, except for those smug Prius drivers who don't have this problem ).

The best thing is to wait 1 or 2 seconds when the car in front moves rather than moving after it straight away.

The time it takes to get out of neutral and select a gear then disengage the handbrake will give enough time :)

[mrpj]

"I Believe the MMT doesn't have a temperature sensor but......

works out if the clutch is being "abused" somehow."

According to my Yaris handbook there is a high clutch temperature warning light for MMT models, possibly audible "beeps" too but can't be bothered to have a look :) , and advice to stop and let it cool for, I think, 15 minutes.

[Geriatric]

A feature of this 'box so that it "feels" like a conventional auto is "creep".

I have a 107 which has Toyota's MMT box. When new it had a very small amount of creep which only lasted a few weeks before there was no creep at all. I had understood this basic MMT box did not have any creep. Is my understanding incorrect?

I had a Corolla before and it had I think "easy start" which was built in creep. Not as strong as a torque convertor but very handy when manoeuvering.

I would certainly like to have some creep if this box can be adjusted to give it.

Do other MMT owners have creep in the Aygo? Is creep covered in the handbook?

[Unklian]

A feature of this 'box so that it "feels" like a conventional auto is "creep".

I have a 107 which has Toyota's MMT box. When new it had a very small amount of creep which only lasted a few weeks before there was no creep at all. I had understood this basic MMT box did not have any creep. Is my understanding incorrect?

I had a Corolla before and it had I think "easy start" which was built in creep. Not as strong as a torque convertor but very handy when manoeuvering.

I would certainly like to have some creep if this box can be adjusted to give it.

Do other MMT owners have creep in the Aygo? Is creep covered in the handbook?

I think this is just a software change between models.

Toyota have MMT set up to creep.

I may be wrong but I don't think the Peugeot & Citroen have it "enabled"

Personaly, I would prefer to not have it.

I've had a Smart Fortwo previously and there was a micro-switch on the throttle

pedal. You could leave the Smart in 1st and it would remain stationary.

Touch the accelerator ever so slightly and it would start to creep, even if you hadn't pressed it

enough to bring the engine off idle.

Ian.

[Geriatric]

Thanks unklian the workings of the MMT box seems to be a bit of a mystery. I preferred creep as with no creep on mine after a several months the clutch fails to engage as you accelerate and then it comes in with a lurch.Peugeot reset something and then I was back with a small amount of creep but only for a short while. Whether the wear on the clutch is taken up automatically I do not know but it does seem there are few experts on the workings and adjustments that can be made to the operation of the box. I will start an other thread later as this one does not really cover MMT boxes.