New Rims Are Touching Front Calipers

[Sensei]

I finally got my new set of rims last friday, a set of Dezent M HG for my 2003 D4D. After mounting them I quickly realized something was wrong as there was a grinding/scraping sound. Stopping after 5 meters it kinda felt like a brake was sticking. After inspecting the wheels I quickly figured out that the two front rims were touching the caliper close to the hub. I've sent a request to the (online) shop to send me new ones that will fit, but I'm worried this model doesn't come with other offsets. At best, I'll probably just end up getting my money back. That sucks because I spent about 1,5 - 2 months deciding and aquiring these rims, so I really dont want to do it all over again.

Here's some pictures. Click them to enlarge.

The shop has a configurator on their website where you choose which car you have, and they will show you which rims will fit. They also have a "100% fitment guarantee". However, my car was originally sold in Germany and was later imported to Norway. I have compared my car's registration data with another similar model which has also been imported from Germany, and two that were sold domestically in Norway. Both imported cars have 235-60-R16 as standard tyre dimensions and an ET/offset of 35. The two "norwegian" cars had 215-70-R16 and ET40. So... Probably the ET giving me a hard time? :ffs:

Both the rear wheels are fine, as the calipers are way in there. I've tried one of the "unharmed" wheels with both 3mm and 5mm spacers. With 3mm spacer the rim might be barely touching the caliper when tightened (didn't tighten it all the way), but 5mm has good clearance. With the 5mm spacer I can only get about 4 and a quarter turns with the lug nuts. Will that suffice? If I remember correctly, I got 6-7 turns with the original rims. How would I go about getting longer studs? Is it even feasible?

Another solution would be to grind some material off the part of the caliper that is touching the rim. Can anyone explain the function of that part and if it's safe to remove some material from it? I already spoke with Toyota who couldn't offer me a solution, and they didn't suspect my car of having anything other than standard braking components. They did however give me the price of a new caliper; £495, so I dont want to mess up the calipers unnecessarily.

[CharlieFarlie]

I think its fair to say that You simply must have the wrong wheel fitment for Your car Either size or offset . I would be retuning them and getting the right wheels ASAP ..

No way would I be taking a file or grinder to the callipers . That would be a safety issue and Who would want to buy the car when the time comes to sell if They spot that....

[bothwell_buyer]

Doin't touch the calipers. You must ensure that there is a slight clearance at least to allow for the wheel flexing when you zoom round corners etc.

I rely on my alloy wheel specialist in Glasgow to come up with suitable wheels for mine as number 1 RAV requires a certain offset.

The other way is to fit spacers but then you put a little more strain on the suspension parts and hub.

[jedi134]

Yep you have wrong offset wheels, or you could use spacers but will need to buy longer bolts, but if its nuts you need your in trouble.

[three5]

I finally got my new set of rims last friday, a set of Dezent M HG for my 2003 D4D. After mounting them I quickly realized something was wrong as there was a grinding/scraping sound. Stopping after 5 meters it kinda felt like a brake was sticking. After inspecting the wheels I quickly figured out that the two front rims were touching the caliper close to the hub. I've sent a request to the (online) shop to send me new ones that will fit, but I'm worried this model doesn't come with other offsets. At best, I'll probably just end up getting my money back. That sucks because I spent about 1,5 - 2 months deciding and aquiring these rims, so I really dont want to do it all over again.

Here's some pictures. Click them to enlarge.

The shop has a configurator on their website where you choose which car you have, and they will show you which rims will fit. They also have a "100% fitment guarantee". However, my car was originally sold in Germany and was later imported to Norway. I have compared my car's registration data with another similar model which has also been imported from Germany, and two that were sold domestically in Norway. Both imported cars have 235-60-R16 as standard tyre dimensions and an ET/offset of 35. The two "norwegian" cars had 215-70-R16 and ET40. So... Probably the ET giving me a hard time? :ffs:

Both the rear wheels are fine, as the calipers are way in there. I've tried one of the "unharmed" wheels with both 3mm and 5mm spacers. With 3mm spacer the rim might be barely touching the caliper when tightened (didn't tighten it all the way), but 5mm has good clearance. With the 5mm spacer I can only get about 4 and a quarter turns with the lug nuts. Will that suffice? If I remember correctly, I got 6-7 turns with the original rims. How would I go about getting longer studs? Is it even feasible?

Another solution would be to grind some material off the part of the caliper that is touching the rim. Can anyone explain the function of that part and if it's safe to remove some material from it? I already spoke with Toyota who couldn't offer me a solution, and they didn't suspect my car of having anything other than standard braking components. They did however give me the price of a new caliper; £495, so I dont want to mess up the calipers unnecessarily.

From memory, the offset is measured from the centeline of the wheel ( a plane that would cut the rim into two sections of equal width ) and the inside of the wheel mounting flange. In the UK ( again from memory ) this dimension is 35mm. If the distance is 40mm the wheel is more likely to touch the caliper. Check the wheel offset by measuring from a straightedge placed across the inside edges of the wheel rim to the mounting flange face and then subtract 1/2 the distance between the inside of the inside rim to the outside of the outside rim. I'm pretty sure it should work out OK if you got 35mm offset wheels ( - these would be standard in the UK ). This is probably a very poor description and may make no sense at all. If it would help, I will produce a sketch and try and upload it.

[RedRoss]

Nightmare! Surely when you drove (albeit for 5 metres) the calipers have scratched the alloys? If so, will the company take them back?

[Sensei]

From memory, the offset is measured from the centeline of the wheel ( a plane that would cut the rim into two sections of equal width ) and the inside of the wheel mounting flange. In the UK ( again from memory ) this dimension is 35mm. If the distance is 40mm the wheel is more likely to touch the caliper. Check the wheel offset by measuring from a straightedge placed across the inside edges of the wheel rim to the mounting flange face and then subtract 1/2 the distance between the inside of the inside rim to the outside of the outside rim. I'm pretty sure it should work out OK if you got 35mm offset wheels ( - these would be standard in the UK ). This is probably a very poor description and may make no sense at all. If it would help, I will produce a sketch and try and upload it.

It makes perfectly sense, and you are correct about the offset. The rims are stamped with ET40, so no need to measure. My car registration says the car should have ET35. With a 5mm spacer the rims go from ET40 to ET35 and do fit. But then is the length of the studs.

I guess the real question now is; will 4,25 turns on each of the nuts be enough to keep me safe? Do I need new hubs and studs? Anyone know? (Anchorman? Kingo? )

Nightmare! Surely when you drove (albeit for 5 metres) the calipers have scratched the alloys? If so, will the company take them back?

Yes, the rims have a nice groove on the inside of them (clearly visible on third picture). The shop is required by law to take them back since they dont fit my car as promised. They answered me yesterday and agreed to this (It's not the first time I've written an angry-letter :ffs:)

However, they could only offer me these rims for my RAV4, but I dont like any of them!

OVM Ride 7x16 5/114.3 ET35 B73.1

http://www.byttdekk.com/?page=129&item=38396

SvF Hilo 7x16 5/114.3 ET35 B73.1

http://www.byttdekk.com/?page=129&item=37811

SvF Lyon 7x16 5/114.3 ET35 B73.1

http://www.byttdekk.com/?page=129&item=43345

SvF Detroit 7x16 5/114.3 ET35 B73.1

http://www.byttdekk.com/?page=129&item=38115

SvF Houston 7x16 5/114.3 ET35 B73.1

http://www.byttdekk.com/?page=129&item=37873

Suggestions for new rims are welcome...

[Sensei]

I re-measured how many turns I'm getting with the lug nuts and a 3mm spacer; 4 and a quarter, and I think that's too little. Without the spacer I'm getting about 6 and a half turn.

So, if I'm keeping the rims, they must either be modified in a lathe, or a few mm on the caliper needs to go. Now, I've never done anything to the brakes, but studying Anchorman's guide on changing brake pads and discs, I see now that the correct term for the conflicting part is "carrier". And if I have understood correctly, the area touching the rims doesn't serve much of a purpose. The outer part of the carrier merely holds the outer brake pad in place. Am I right? The following picture outlines the curved part that is in contact with the rim. Notice the bright gray aluminum deposits which has come off the rim.

[anchorman]

That brace carries all the load imposed on the caliper under the braking torque. I suppose we could debate to what extent the load might come near the limit as it will have been tested under the most extreme conditions (maximum vehicle load and maximum braking force) but it would be very difficault to second guess how far into "normal" braking reducing the strength of it would encroach.

I really don't recommend you removing any of it as there is a chance you could get hurt or worse

Did you ask the supplier for these wheels or did he say they would fit? Can't you return them and choose a better fit? Every now and again a set of 4.3 wheels pops up on eBay and they look superb.

[Sensei]

That brace carries all the load imposed on the caliper under the braking torque.

Are you sure we are talking about grinding the same part? From what I understand the caliper itself does the hard work by squeezing in on both sides of the disc. The caliper can slide back and forth a little and will be centered as the pads touch the disc. Now, the carrier is connected to the car with two bolts on the inside (behind the disc). The caliper is then connected to the carrier by two bolts, also on the inside (see picture below, from your guide). Isn't the carriers task just to keep the caliper and pads in place while the caliper itself does the hard job? I do agree that the conflicting part may have a structural purpose, and may be there to prevent vibrations or warping of the rest of the carrier, and to prevent debris from hitting the brake pads. I just dont see it doing any hard work.

Did you ask the supplier for these wheels or did he say they would fit? Can't you return them and choose a better fit? Every now and again a set of 4.3 wheels pops up on ebay and they look superb.

Yes, supplier said they would fit and they will take them back. However, now that they have looked up my car they can't offer the same rims that will actually fit. The ones they do offer look nothing like the ones I like (see list above). I have seen 4.3 wheels for sale domestically as well, but not the ones that look good. And besides, the 4.3 has ET45 where I live, so that is even further away from my 4.2 with ET35. I have sent an e-mail to the manufacturer to ask if the rims I like are at all available in my ET.

[CharlieFarlie]

Take them back and get replacements. To start filing or grinding is just plain foolish. Remember its not just You life You are putting on the line here !! Your bolts are to short. If You try to torque the them to the correct level You could easily strip the threads !!!

[anchorman]

Yeh like CF I would be very wary of not securing those wheels with the full threads.

OK Sensei, back to this caliper bridge. Yes the piston and and casting are free to float on the giuide pins but when you brake all the torque generated is transfered through the pad abutments into the fixed part on the axle - they want to go around with the disc and something has to stop them. In the case of the outer pad that means the part of the bridge where the pad ends touch (at the bottom of the photo) and if you weaken that link from the top to the bottom there is nothing to stop the pad housing from opening up as the full weight of the car is imposed on the bottom abutment during braking. The force is huge and the link anchors it - do you see?

[Sensei]

I understand what you are saying, and I agree that (in theory B)) the link will "hold back" the lower, outer part of the brake carrier. However, this is surely not a 0% margin critical part? For all we know Toyota has put it there with a 500% break margin based on max braking from 60 mph with fully loaded car... I've seen several similar designs that are lacking the linkage alltogether. If I could get hold of a cheap used carrier I'll cut it in the middle and do some hard brake testing.

And if I wreck the RAV I'll have a good excuse of realizing a new car

[CharlieFarlie]

I understand what you are saying, and I agree that (in theory B)) the link will "hold back" the lower, outer part of the brake carrier. However, this is surely not a 0% margin critical part? For all we know Toyota has put it there with a 500% break margin based on max braking from 60 mph with fully loaded car... I've seen several similar designs that are lacking the linkage alltogether. If I could get hold of a cheap used carrier I'll cut it in the middle and do some hard brake testing.

And if I wreck the RAV I'll have a good excuse of realizing a new car

You ask a question You are given sound advice and yet it appears You are about to ignore it ?? Messing around with those components is just stupid If You wreck the car I sincerely hope You dont wreck Yourself, Anyone else, Or someone else's car or property ?? FFS Man do You listen ? Get the things changed ....................

[bothwell_buyer]

The brake calipers on the Toyota RAV are designed to stop the car in normal driving conditions. From my experience of running 2 (yes 2) RAV4s with racing engines each pushing out more than double the power output of the original engine, I can truthfully say that the brake calipers are not over-engineered like some of the drivetrain... gearbox and rear diff. To skim even a small part off the caliper sliding shoe will compromise the metal fatigue rate and may lead to failure at the times when the brakes are being really used ( like downhill with a full load; fast motorway driving with heavy braking...ie just when you need them)

You can choose to compromise yer braking on yer car - your choice... but putting others lives at risk by doing that is selfish.

The world is full of alloy wheels.... have you looked at the DARE wheel range? I use several sets of DARE Drift and other DARE wheels - they are strong - fit for purpose - clear my calipers properly -and lightweight so giving a better ride with less unsprung weight bouncing about. These are all 18" diameter rims. I'm also buying a set of 20" rims but this is proving more difficult due to the offset and strength I require.

I think I read trhe posts right.... the toyota caliper only has pistons on the one side with the carrier doing the work of pistons on the other side. The calipers I use on number 1 are 6 pot calipers.... which means 3 pistons on each side of the discs hence no carrier. This arrangement is far more efficient for what I do, and means that I HAVE to ensure the offsets are correct. What you propose is basically the same as shaving metal off the caliper piston body.... ugh !!

[Sensei]

The world is full of alloy wheels.... have you looked at the DARE wheel range? I use several sets of DARE Drift and other DARE wheels - they are strong - fit for purpose - clear my calipers properly -and lightweight so giving a better ride with less unsprung weight bouncing about. These are all 18" diameter rims. I'm also buying a set of 20" rims but this is proving more difficult due to the offset and strength I require.

Never heard of them, but I had a look today. But now that I already have a new set of 16" tyres I also need the replacement rims to be 16", and they didn't seem to have many of those. At least none with a design I like. Please do suggest more alternatives if you have.

I think I read trhe posts right.... the toyota caliper only has pistons on the one side with the carrier doing the work of pistons on the other side. The calipers I use on number 1 are 6 pot calipers.... which means 3 pistons on each side of the discs hence no carrier. This arrangement is far more efficient for what I do, and means that I HAVE to ensure the offsets are correct. What you propose is basically the same as shaving metal off the caliper piston body.... ugh !!

One piston is correct. Do you know of a carrier or complete set with different design available for the 4.2 that doesn't stick out as far?

[Sensei]

Here's an update: I did some research and askign around. I came up with a local shop that specializes in alloy wheel repairs. They agreed there wouldn't be a problem shaving off a few mm on the rims as they are pretty massive to begin with. (yes, I know massive alloy kinda defeats the purpose with leightweight rims... :D) The repair company had a long waiting list, but recommended someone else who could do the work within a week or two. So, I had the tyres taken off, and after some waiting, one of the rims were machined and fitted bare on the car for measuring. About 4mm in the center of the cut left enough clearance, even for a few coats of paint. The rest of the rims were processed to the same dimensions. Armed with tons of masking tape, primer, wheel paint and an allegedly bad-a** two component clear coat paint, I put the final touch on the rims. Tyres were then put back on and rebalanced. Wheels were mounted yesterday and the test drive left me with a big grin. Here's some pics of the process and result. (Click to enlarge)

Rim after being machined. The shiny circle around the mating face is where material was removed.

After 1,5 coat of primer, 2 coats of silver wheel paint and 2 coats of clear laquer.

[anchorman]

It certainly looks the part now

[El Bee]

I'd be really interested to see the load/shear and metallurgy calculations/predictions.

What was the original thickness on the rim, and why did the foolish manufacturer over specify it by so much?

Enquiring minds 'n all.

Lee

[Sensei]

I'd be really interested to see the load/shear and metallurgy calculations/predictions.

If you're that interested and feel like paying for this, I'd be happy to ask the wheel repair shop for it... If you're just being sarcastic I will settle with the repair shop's experience and evaluation of the case with the concurrence of the company that did the actual work. They specializes in repair and production of on/offshore production tools, so you'd think they have a little experience with metal working.

What was the original thickness on the rim, and why did the foolish manufacturer over specify it by so much?

The spokes are just about the thickest I've ever seen on any rim for normal sized cars. The product description states "The “M” is a more powerful variation on our “F” model and is perfectly suited for SUVs, heavier passenger cars and high-end models." My biggest worry is the paint flaking that might occur where the spokes meet at the center. Time will tell. And it has already told me that the original Toyota rims will flake without any metal works... I'm making that a summer project. :D

[Jamesbelfast]

I take it the workshop that machined the wheels gave you a written warranty for the safe performance of the wheels after modification - after all any warranty given by the originak wheel suppier is now null and void. Oh and have you informed your insurers as to the modifications.:)

[Sensei]

I take it the workshop that machined the wheels gave you a written warranty for the safe performance of the wheels after modification - after all any warranty given by the originak wheel suppier is now null and void. Oh and have you informed your insurers as to the modifications.:)

Of course. And you never exceed the speed limit, right? :)

[CharlieFarlie]

I take it the workshop that machined the wheels gave you a written warranty for the safe performance of the wheels after modification - after all any warranty given by the originak wheel suppier is now null and void. Oh and have you informed your insurers as to the modifications.:)

Of course. And you never exceed the speed limit, right? :)

I often exceed the speed limit. But not on dodgy wheels !!! Machining those wheels is like doing the same to the carriers . Its just plain stupid !! You are playing with not only Your Own safety but anyone who rides in that car and anyone who could end up in an accident with Your car IF things go wrong... By all means play silly buggers with Your safety and life but risking Someone else's life is not onlt !Removed! stupid its extremely selfish as well .... FFS Why ????? :rolleyes:

[bothwell_buyer]

I'm sure those wheeels are preety similar to a previous alloy wheel available for RAVs a few years ago..

I went for 18" wheels as I enjoy the lower profile tyre being able to withstand more impact and not affect the handling of the car. The 16" wheel and tyre combo isn't so bad either, but having used 16", I'd never go back from the 18" DARE Drifts and DARE Diesel. Ask me again in a few months when I've tried out the 20" wheels!

With chunky alloys likke that, I can understand how they could take a shaving and still be OK; but I won't start my normal tirade about the weight of later 5 door RAVs :lol:

[Sensei]

I often exceed the speed limit.

You do? Well then I could say...

Its just plain stupid !! You are playing with not only Your Own safety but anyone who rides in that car and anyone who could end up in an accident with Your car IF things go wrong... By all means play silly buggers with Your safety and life but risking Someone else's life is not onlt !Removed! stupid its extremely selfish as well .... FFS Why ????? :rolleyes:

Well hey, you just said it yourself.

Or are you an expert in this area as well as metallurgy and can determine that a minor modification to a rim is more of a risk than "often exceeding the speed limit"?

But guess what, we all do that from time to time. Some people drink ("just one beer") and drive. Some people text/talk while driving. Some people tailgate. Some people eat/drink/put on makeup while driving. Some people drive when they are tired... And these are just a few things known to cause accidents, and all are related to driving. How many other "calculated" risks are we taking in our daily lives? Surely, the best thing would be to never ever drive any car or motorcycle and stay in bed for as long as we live? Just making my point...

I do also exceed the speed limit sometimes. And I talk on the phone (with hands free - but that's still somewhat dangerous according to Mythbusters ). I might tailgate a little if the guy in front is going too slow and he's in the fast lane and doesn't notice my light horn (that doesn't happen very often now as I am armed with Hella). I even have a sip of coffee sometimes while driving. All these things I do because in each particular case I make a calculated risk based on past experience, with confidence that I'm skilled enough to pull it off. On the other hand, I know that alcohol can mess you up - and it can be a sneaky SOB. So I NEVER drink and drive. (And I do love my Talisker! )

The same thing goes for the rims - it's a calculated risk. Lets go back on the question about you being an expert; In the judicial system where I live there is something called an expert witness. The two companies I have been in contact with come a whole lot closer to this definition than 99% of the members on this forum. Everyone I've talked with in real life (including two professional mechanics, one DIY mechanic and the manager at the store I bought the tyres from) all agreed that removing some material from the rim wouldn not pose a risk. One of the pro mechanics also said I could drive with the rims as they were and the calipers would grind them to fit. He also said they've done this many times. (Yet this has never caused an accident that any of us has heard about, but every spring and fall I can read about people loosing wheels because they pay the "wheel hotel" businesses for storing, caring for AND changing their summer/winter tyres.) What it all boils down to is that I am making a decision based on the information I've gathered and my own intelligence. I could have taken the easy route with grinding the calipers for free. What I did cost me a few weeks of time and about 1,5 rim worth in cash! I did not grind the calipers because Anchorman gave me technical advice that made sense, and I do know he's knowledgeable in this area. Maybe he even qualifies as an expert witness? The decision is mine and I am fully aware that I will have to answer for the consequences of them.

We can go on and on about the moral issues related to this, but I really dont see the point as I was looking for techincal info which I have gotten. I appreciate your concern for mine and others safety, but there is no need for anyone to sit on their high horses and point finger at me time and again (not even if you wear a cool cowboy hat).