Do I Regret Selling The T180

[Rick D4D]

Well its been 3 months now and yes some people might find this interesting and other will just slate me but I suppose this is the way it goes, around a month ago I posted the below in a thread about T180/SR180 buying and opinions

The car to be fair is very solid and not to many problems other than poor MPG, my advice is get a decent test drive and see what MPG you get but I would be prepared to expect as low as 30MPG and at best 40MPG but then some of these do 45-48MPG. The thing is no one seems to know why some owners get at best 35MPG where as others can get close to 50MPG and Toyota cant find anything wrong with the cars, I am an x T180 owner (same car apart from body trim) and at first we easily got 40-42MPG and even managed 46MPG but after around 15months of ownership our MPG started to drop and at one point we drove 300miles down the A1 at around 11pm from Edinburgh doing no more than 75 and only got 36MPG. The next day we took the car to Toyota and it was all checked over but no faults found, after 2 years of ownership I drove 110miles mainly motorway and A roads to fetch the new car and only got 32MPG. WTF? I was not driving the car hard and weather was good but 2 years ago the same drive would have returned around 43MPG so why did the MPG drop so much? The truth is I have no answer and Toyota don't or are not sharing this with me but the simple fact was in the end no matter how we drove the car 35MPG seemed the best we could get and for that reason we got rid.

The T180 had only covered 42k when we got rid so was not high mileage and everything seemed fine so I do I regret buying the T180? well no it was a good car and never really cost us anything other than wear and tear plus servicing but would I buy another? not a chance we 100% made the right decision in getting rid and this is mainly backed up for us by high fuel prices and low MPG from a diesel car that we expected was a good investment. I will also say that we did struggle to get the right money on part exchange as now all the dealers are well aware of T180/SR180 poor fuel economy and they told us this was the reason why they offered so little for our car.

I cant say this enough but make sure you get a good test drive so you are aware of the MPG this car will return for you as like I said this varies a lot for the same car and if you are only returning in the low 30s like ours was in the end then you can run a proper performance car for the same costs.

I would also like to say that we used to question if it was our driving in the end but I now know for sure it is not as the new car Honda quote a max of 64MPG and I have managed on one 70mile journey 61MPG and since we have owned the car we have an average of 48MPG for over 2000miles which obviously includes all the short journeys that people make, the T180 in the end was returning an average for this type of driving around 29-31MPG so this is over 50% better on fuel and around here petrol is now also around 6ppl cheaper than diesel.

So what so I honestly think? I will say I thought the same as above until I found our old T180 for sale http://www.vehicleimagezoom.r66.co.uk/?Theme=Toyota&Id=601322241&DefaultImage=Toyota and what strikes me first is how a main Toyota dealer advertises the car with 35k on the clock but shows a photo of the speedo showing 41742 (this is correct) and that is nearly a 20% difference and mistake by the dealer.

But back to my thoughts about this and I can honestly say we did the right think and absolutely love the CRZ this is very underrated and may only be 121BHP but the electric motor gives it so much torque and is just simply a pleasure to drive, the build quality is better and noticeable along with MPG that we have never seen lower than 45MPG over a tank and have had 55MPG over a tank and up to 62MPG on some runs. My thought when I first found the T180 for sale again was I pity the poor guy who buys this and even though I still 100% feel this way I will say this more driven by very high running costs caused by a Toyota diesel engine that is quoted to give decent MPG 46MPG combined yet we used to get 50% less than this and according to Toyota that was normal and fine. I hate to say this and even though I was very very impressed by Toyota service the CRZ is my 2nd Honda and I would say wont be the last and I will be very wary of buying Toyota in the future due to misleading sale / quoted figures which in the end leads to an unhappy and out of pocket ex Toyota driver.

Like I said this is not I hate Toyota thread but an honest opinion on our experience of Toyota ownership and I guess it is a shame how a once mighty company with a reputation that cemented the old phrase (its Jap so great build quality and will run forever) has lost there way so much. The T180 was the flagship model at the time of manufacturer costing around £19k and yet the interior quality is a lot less of a cheaper ford focus probably because all the the cost was for the diesel engine and transmission which even though it is not 100% confirmed why but does have a serious design flaw which has led to lots of owners feeling like myself and probably explains why Toyota dropped all their 2.2 and 2.0 diesel engines nearly 2 years ago.

I do when I sit and think back now as an ex Toyota owner that over the last 5 years Toyota the worlds largest car manufacturer has lost there way with quality control or sourced to many cheap parts to cut cost and that would explain a lot of recalls over the last 2 years (more than any other manufacturer), on Toyota's side I always found that they sorted out any quality problems or faults on our Auris no problem at all and at no cost to myself apart from the poor MPG issue where I was just fobbed off with its down to the fuel in the tank.

[Mistermena]

Well its been 3 months now and yes some people might find this interesting and other will just slate me but I suppose this is the way it goes, around a month ago I posted the below in a thread about T180/SR180 buying and opinions

The car to be fair is very solid and not to many problems other than poor MPG, my advice is get a decent test drive and see what MPG you get but I would be prepared to expect as low as 30MPG and at best 40MPG but then some of these do 45-48MPG. The thing is no one seems to know why some owners get at best 35MPG where as others can get close to 50MPG and Toyota cant find anything wrong with the cars, I am an x T180 owner (same car apart from body trim) and at first we easily got 40-42MPG and even managed 46MPG but after around 15months of ownership our MPG started to drop and at one point we drove 300miles down the A1 at around 11pm from Edinburgh doing no more than 75 and only got 36MPG. The next day we took the car to Toyota and it was all checked over but no faults found, after 2 years of ownership I drove 110miles mainly motorway and A roads to fetch the new car and only got 32MPG. WTF? I was not driving the car hard and weather was good but 2 years ago the same drive would have returned around 43MPG so why did the MPG drop so much? The truth is I have no answer and Toyota don't or are not sharing this with me but the simple fact was in the end no matter how we drove the car 35MPG seemed the best we could get and for that reason we got rid.

The T180 had only covered 42k when we got rid so was not high mileage and everything seemed fine so I do I regret buying the T180? well no it was a good car and never really cost us anything other than wear and tear plus servicing but would I buy another? not a chance we 100% made the right decision in getting rid and this is mainly backed up for us by high fuel prices and low MPG from a diesel car that we expected was a good investment. I will also say that we did struggle to get the right money on part exchange as now all the dealers are well aware of T180/SR180 poor fuel economy and they told us this was the reason why they offered so little for our car.

I cant say this enough but make sure you get a good test drive so you are aware of the MPG this car will return for you as like I said this varies a lot for the same car and if you are only returning in the low 30s like ours was in the end then you can run a proper performance car for the same costs.

I would also like to say that we used to question if it was our driving in the end but I now know for sure it is not as the new car Honda quote a max of 64MPG and I have managed on one 70mile journey 61MPG and since we have owned the car we have an average of 48MPG for over 2000miles which obviously includes all the short journeys that people make, the T180 in the end was returning an average for this type of driving around 29-31MPG so this is over 50% better on fuel and around here petrol is now also around 6ppl cheaper than diesel.

So what so I honestly think? I will say I thought the same as above until I found our old T180 for sale http://www.vehicleim...ultImage=Toyota and what strikes me first is how a main Toyota dealer advertises the car with 35k on the clock but shows a photo of the speedo showing 41742 (this is correct) and that is nearly a 20% difference and mistake by the dealer.

But back to my thoughts about this and I can honestly say we did the right think and absolutely love the CRZ this is very underrated and may only be 121BHP but the electric motor gives it so much torque and is just simply a pleasure to drive, the build quality is better and noticeable along with MPG that we have never seen lower than 45MPG over a tank and have had 55MPG over a tank and up to 62MPG on some runs. My thought when I first found the T180 for sale again was I pity the poor guy who buys this and even though I still 100% feel this way I will say this more driven by very high running costs caused by a Toyota diesel engine that is quoted to give decent MPG 46MPG combined yet we used to get 50% less than this and according to Toyota that was normal and fine. I hate to say this and even though I was very very impressed by Toyota service the CRZ is my 2nd Honda and I would say wont be the last and I will be very wary of buying Toyota in the future due to misleading sale / quoted figures which in the end leads to an unhappy and out of pocket ex Toyota driver.

Like I said this is not I hate Toyota thread but an honest opinion on our experience of Toyota ownership and I guess it is a shame how a once mighty company with a reputation that cemented the old phrase (its Jap so great build quality and will run forever) has lost there way so much. The T180 was the flagship model at the time of manufacturer costing around £19k and yet the interior quality is a lot less of a cheaper ford focus probably because all the the cost was for the diesel engine and transmission which even though it is not 100% confirmed why but does have a serious design flaw which has led to lots of owners feeling like myself and probably explains why Toyota dropped all their 2.2 and 2.0 diesel engines nearly 2 years ago.

I do when I sit and think back now as an ex Toyota owner that over the last 5 years Toyota the worlds largest car manufacturer has lost there way with quality control or sourced to many cheap parts to cut cost and that would explain a lot of recalls over the last 2 years (more than any other manufacturer), on Toyota's side I always found that they sorted out any quality problems or faults on our Auris no problem at all and at no cost to myself apart from the poor MPG issue where I was just fobbed off with its down to the fuel in the tank.

I think its good Rick that you've taken the time to write about your time of owning a Toyota. I believe that the brand has suffered due to many things, not least the problems with the EGR valve and the 2.2 head gaskets failure. But do I still love driving my T-180? Yep!, for how long? Only time will tell...

[Crasstoe]

An interesting topic which will no doubt raise a few eye brows ;)

I for one agree Toyota has lost their way. The Auris is the first Toyota I have bought and I honestly expected more, thats not saying I dislike the car I simply wouldn't recommend it as an alternative to something like a Volvo C30 or VW Golf. After I've finished paying off the finance for the Auris I won't be holding on to it for long, and doubt my next purchase will be a Toyota unless they can really step up their game to match the likes of the DS3. For ***** sake the day a Citroen is built better than a Toyota is the day hell freezes over!

[T Sport 1978]

Well its been 3 months now and yes some people might find this interesting and other will just slate me but I suppose this is the way it goes, around a month ago I posted the below in a thread about T180/SR180 buying and opinions

The car to be fair is very solid and not to many problems other than poor MPG, my advice is get a decent test drive and see what MPG you get but I would be prepared to expect as low as 30MPG and at best 40MPG but then some of these do 45-48MPG. The thing is no one seems to know why some owners get at best 35MPG where as others can get close to 50MPG and Toyota cant find anything wrong with the cars, I am an x T180 owner (same car apart from body trim) and at first we easily got 40-42MPG and even managed 46MPG but after around 15months of ownership our MPG started to drop and at one point we drove 300miles down the A1 at around 11pm from Edinburgh doing no more than 75 and only got 36MPG. The next day we took the car to Toyota and it was all checked over but no faults found, after 2 years of ownership I drove 110miles mainly motorway and A roads to fetch the new car and only got 32MPG. WTF? I was not driving the car hard and weather was good but 2 years ago the same drive would have returned around 43MPG so why did the MPG drop so much? The truth is I have no answer and Toyota don't or are not sharing this with me but the simple fact was in the end no matter how we drove the car 35MPG seemed the best we could get and for that reason we got rid.

The T180 had only covered 42k when we got rid so was not high mileage and everything seemed fine so I do I regret buying the T180? well no it was a good car and never really cost us anything other than wear and tear plus servicing but would I buy another? not a chance we 100% made the right decision in getting rid and this is mainly backed up for us by high fuel prices and low MPG from a diesel car that we expected was a good investment. I will also say that we did struggle to get the right money on part exchange as now all the dealers are well aware of T180/SR180 poor fuel economy and they told us this was the reason why they offered so little for our car.

I cant say this enough but make sure you get a good test drive so you are aware of the MPG this car will return for you as like I said this varies a lot for the same car and if you are only returning in the low 30s like ours was in the end then you can run a proper performance car for the same costs.

I would also like to say that we used to question if it was our driving in the end but I now know for sure it is not as the new car Honda quote a max of 64MPG and I have managed on one 70mile journey 61MPG and since we have owned the car we have an average of 48MPG for over 2000miles which obviously includes all the short journeys that people make, the T180 in the end was returning an average for this type of driving around 29-31MPG so this is over 50% better on fuel and around here petrol is now also around 6ppl cheaper than diesel.

So what so I honestly think? I will say I thought the same as above until I found our old T180 for sale http://www.vehicleimagezoom.r66.co.uk/?Theme=Toyota&Id=601322241&DefaultImage=Toyota and what strikes me first is how a main Toyota dealer advertises the car with 35k on the clock but shows a photo of the speedo showing 41742 (this is correct) and that is nearly a 20% difference and mistake by the dealer.

But back to my thoughts about this and I can honestly say we did the right think and absolutely love the CRZ this is very underrated and may only be 121BHP but the electric motor gives it so much torque and is just simply a pleasure to drive, the build quality is better and noticeable along with MPG that we have never seen lower than 45MPG over a tank and have had 55MPG over a tank and up to 62MPG on some runs. My thought when I first found the T180 for sale again was I pity the poor guy who buys this and even though I still 100% feel this way I will say this more driven by very high running costs caused by a Toyota diesel engine that is quoted to give decent MPG 46MPG combined yet we used to get 50% less than this and according to Toyota that was normal and fine. I hate to say this and even though I was very very impressed by Toyota service the CRZ is my 2nd Honda and I would say wont be the last and I will be very wary of buying Toyota in the future due to misleading sale / quoted figures which in the end leads to an unhappy and out of pocket ex Toyota driver.

Like I said this is not I hate Toyota thread but an honest opinion on our experience of Toyota ownership and I guess it is a shame how a once mighty company with a reputation that cemented the old phrase (its Jap so great build quality and will run forever) has lost there way so much. The T180 was the flagship model at the time of manufacturer costing around £19k and yet the interior quality is a lot less of a cheaper ford focus probably because all the the cost was for the diesel engine and transmission which even though it is not 100% confirmed why but does have a serious design flaw which has led to lots of owners feeling like myself and probably explains why Toyota dropped all their 2.2 and 2.0 diesel engines nearly 2 years ago.

I do when I sit and think back now as an ex Toyota owner that over the last 5 years Toyota the worlds largest car manufacturer has lost there way with quality control or sourced to many cheap parts to cut cost and that would explain a lot of recalls over the last 2 years (more than any other manufacturer), on Toyota's side I always found that they sorted out any quality problems or faults on our Auris no problem at all and at no cost to myself apart from the poor MPG issue where I was just fobbed off with its down to the fuel in the tank.

I dont regret selling mine.

It was a clear decision as the car made me think along the lines of 'cut your loses', the car simply was not ageing as i would expect from a Toyota and the signs of problems that i was getting just made me lose confidence.

I never had any doubts about the Corolla though, that car was truly solid and a soldier. I miss that T Sport.

The Accord has been very nice, I miss the Auris's power but not much else. Economy wise (since its a popular topic here) is averageing 34MPG but getting better every tank, latest tank i am bang on 40MPG which is simply awesome in my eyes for a petrol. The figures are not far off from the Auris funnily enough, but of course i am not longer paying diesel prices

[Rick D4D]

An interesting topic which will no doubt raise a few eye brows ;)

Yeah sure does just like some users here click on the negative button and downgrade my reputation for example when I bought the CRZ I uploaded a few pictures and said what I thought but that resulted in me getting a -14 reputation WTF I mean how immature is that of some of the users here? I know they may be die hard Toyota fans but the fact why we sold the car and did not buy Toyota again was because the car did not live up to its figures or Toyota's reputation and who's fault is that? I don't build, design or quote the figures I just buy and drive the car.

I even used to question our driving style for the poor MPG as well as local supermarket fuel but can say the T180 was quoted to do around 56MPG extra urban and we never got within 25% of that yet on the same crappy supermarket fuel the CRZ did a 61MPG over a single 70mile return trip and Honda quote a extra urban of 64MPG, now that is certainly not our driving style why the T180 was so thirsty.

Since my 1st Honda I have always bought Jap cars due to the quality and reliability (Honda 2006, Toyota 2009, Honda 2011) and can sure say that Toyota have dropped the ball, I don't know if this reflects all models but the Auris especially the diesels are well short of what they should be and judging by all the recalls over the last 2 years the other models are not as good as they used to be either.

Dont get me wrong I am not saying Honda or any other manufacturer are perfect but Toyota do seem to have had it hard for recalls over the last few years. I will add one of the other reasons the T180 went was with the MPG being so bad and getting worse and even though Toyota had the car and run loads of tests and was also checked by the factory just to report nothing was wrong, I come to the conclusion there is only a few ways for the diesel to leave the tank

1. The accelerator pedal / driving style

2. Though the DPF which is controlled by the ECU

3. Leak in the tank.

4. Some pikey syphoning the tank.

Well I can 100% rule out 3 and 4 and was confidant it was not 1 so I suspected something was seriously wrong with the car and decided that when it goes bang or the DPF falls off I would rather not hope that Toyota will pay for an expensive repair so we got shut as just like others I have lost faith in what I believed was a very good brand. I will add my farther has a 1988 Toyota Hilux that has done over 300k and still runs fine so just goes to show they used to know how to make cars and that 3 neighbours have Corolla 02-04 and they are also very happy with them.

[Jamesbelfast]

I would suspect the DPF is a culprit when it comes to poor mpg. Whilst DPF's are supposed good for the environment the additional fuel burnt counteracts such benefuts. Toyotas aren't the only car to suffer. Many people who have had problems have had the DPF removed and enjoyed increased performance and better fuel economy. Costs of this work can vary between £200 to £400.

There are companies who specialise in this work - see link below for an example.

http://www.ecuflash.co.uk/DPFRemoval.aspx

[Thir13en]

I agree with this post, my first Toyota, and disappointed by the car, however the servers is great (exclude the BS from the salesman).

Would i buy another Toyota? answer is no, but the FT86 is exception.

[Cyker]

My brother's 2.0 D4D Corolla gets mid-high 50's for mpg so it has always puzzled me why the newer ones seem to be worse!

[Mistermena]

Well its been 3 months now and yes some people might find this interesting and other will just slate me but I suppose this is the way it goes, around a month ago I posted the below in a thread about T180/SR180 buying and opinions

The car to be fair is very solid and not to many problems other than poor MPG, my advice is get a decent test drive and see what MPG you get but I would be prepared to expect as low as 30MPG and at best 40MPG but then some of these do 45-48MPG. The thing is no one seems to know why some owners get at best 35MPG where as others can get close to 50MPG and Toyota cant find anything wrong with the cars, I am an x T180 owner (same car apart from body trim) and at first we easily got 40-42MPG and even managed 46MPG but after around 15months of ownership our MPG started to drop and at one point we drove 300miles down the A1 at around 11pm from Edinburgh doing no more than 75 and only got 36MPG. The next day we took the car to Toyota and it was all checked over but no faults found, after 2 years of ownership I drove 110miles mainly motorway and A roads to fetch the new car and only got 32MPG. WTF? I was not driving the car hard and weather was good but 2 years ago the same drive would have returned around 43MPG so why did the MPG drop so much? The truth is I have no answer and Toyota don't or are not sharing this with me but the simple fact was in the end no matter how we drove the car 35MPG seemed the best we could get and for that reason we got rid.

The T180 had only covered 42k when we got rid so was not high mileage and everything seemed fine so I do I regret buying the T180? well no it was a good car and never really cost us anything other than wear and tear plus servicing but would I buy another? not a chance we 100% made the right decision in getting rid and this is mainly backed up for us by high fuel prices and low MPG from a diesel car that we expected was a good investment. I will also say that we did struggle to get the right money on part exchange as now all the dealers are well aware of T180/SR180 poor fuel economy and they told us this was the reason why they offered so little for our car.

I cant say this enough but make sure you get a good test drive so you are aware of the MPG this car will return for you as like I said this varies a lot for the same car and if you are only returning in the low 30s like ours was in the end then you can run a proper performance car for the same costs.

I would also like to say that we used to question if it was our driving in the end but I now know for sure it is not as the new car Honda quote a max of 64MPG and I have managed on one 70mile journey 61MPG and since we have owned the car we have an average of 48MPG for over 2000miles which obviously includes all the short journeys that people make, the T180 in the end was returning an average for this type of driving around 29-31MPG so this is over 50% better on fuel and around here petrol is now also around 6ppl cheaper than diesel.

So what so I honestly think? I will say I thought the same as above until I found our old T180 for sale http://www.vehicleim...ultImage=Toyota and what strikes me first is how a main Toyota dealer advertises the car with 35k on the clock but shows a photo of the speedo showing 41742 (this is correct) and that is nearly a 20% difference and mistake by the dealer.

But back to my thoughts about this and I can honestly say we did the right think and absolutely love the CRZ this is very underrated and may only be 121BHP but the electric motor gives it so much torque and is just simply a pleasure to drive, the build quality is better and noticeable along with MPG that we have never seen lower than 45MPG over a tank and have had 55MPG over a tank and up to 62MPG on some runs. My thought when I first found the T180 for sale again was I pity the poor guy who buys this and even though I still 100% feel this way I will say this more driven by very high running costs caused by a Toyota diesel engine that is quoted to give decent MPG 46MPG combined yet we used to get 50% less than this and according to Toyota that was normal and fine. I hate to say this and even though I was very very impressed by Toyota service the CRZ is my 2nd Honda and I would say wont be the last and I will be very wary of buying Toyota in the future due to misleading sale / quoted figures which in the end leads to an unhappy and out of pocket ex Toyota driver.

Like I said this is not I hate Toyota thread but an honest opinion on our experience of Toyota ownership and I guess it is a shame how a once mighty company with a reputation that cemented the old phrase (its Jap so great build quality and will run forever) has lost there way so much. The T180 was the flagship model at the time of manufacturer costing around £19k and yet the interior quality is a lot less of a cheaper ford focus probably because all the the cost was for the diesel engine and transmission which even though it is not 100% confirmed why but does have a serious design flaw which has led to lots of owners feeling like myself and probably explains why Toyota dropped all their 2.2 and 2.0 diesel engines nearly 2 years ago.

I do when I sit and think back now as an ex Toyota owner that over the last 5 years Toyota the worlds largest car manufacturer has lost there way with quality control or sourced to many cheap parts to cut cost and that would explain a lot of recalls over the last 2 years (more than any other manufacturer), on Toyota's side I always found that they sorted out any quality problems or faults on our Auris no problem at all and at no cost to myself apart from the poor MPG issue where I was just fobbed off with its down to the fuel in the tank.

I dont regret selling mine.

It was a clear decision as the car made me think along the lines of 'cut your loses', the car simply was not ageing as i would expect from a Toyota and the signs of problems that i was getting just made me lose confidence.

I never had any doubts about the Corolla though, that car was truly solid and a soldier. I miss that T Sport.

The Accord has been very nice, I miss the Auris's power but not much else. Economy wise (since its a popular topic here) is averageing 34MPG but getting better every tank, latest tank i am bang on 40MPG which is simply awesome in my eyes for a petrol. The figures are not far off from the Auris funnily enough, but of course i am not longer paying diesel prices

I can understand why you've changed your car with the issues that a lot of people are having with the T-180's! But I'd still prefer to have a diesel over a petrol any day of the week now that the difference in price is only 1p per ltr more for derv over petrol. How long that lasts for is another question!!! :!Removed!:

[Daveyonthemove]

Thats a good point, but the cost at the pump isn't the whole story these days.

It used to be that Diesel cars made up enough of a gain in MPG that the price wasn't enough to make it a worry as the cost per mile was still cheaper.

In Ricks situation, he is saving money at the pump, and per mile simply because the Hybrid is pushing the MPG up considerably, and his Auris was poor (even compared to most others).

That said, i do agree about preferring a diesel engine, but more for the way they drive than the cost of running.

I can see me keeping my Auris for 3 years, by which time i hope to see a diesel hybrid available that drives well and looks good enough to park on the drive.

Time will tell, but for now i'm more than happy with my Auris, but considering the amount of issues i had with my last car (Mondeo ST TDCI) my Auris would have to be a pedal car in order for it to be worse!

Good luck with the Honda Rick

[T Sport 1978]

Right now where I am a litre of derv is 1.39 and petrol is 1.34, that's 5p. Where do you live?

Point about a diesel car is this... The slightly older ones before the compulsory dpf makes a lot of sense, my gf's A3 2.0tdi returns 45mpg no matter how she drives it, and she drives like she stole it most times.

Also if you dont care about the stuff that gets chucked out the back of a non dpf'ed diesel then its ok, but the fact is diesel exhaust is dirty and very harmful if un treated.

I am not going to suddenly advocate petrol over diesel just cos its now what I drive, both have their pros and cons. I know that in my 2.0 petrol I don't need to worry about dpf, egr, proportion of urban driving (which is something that I find ridiculous to have to worry about) and just drive it without worrying.

I might go back to diesel if and when I am convinced that they have resolved these 'technologies', and back to toyota if they make good quality cars again.

[Daveyonthemove]

I agree!

The best cars i owned (Where MPG is concerned) were both 1.9 VAG engines with the PD system.

Easily tunable, efficient and cheap to run. I never saw less than 50mpg from my Fabia vRS and that was remapped to less power than the Auris has.

The emissions were higher, but i probably produced less in the scheme of it due to the efficiency.

On the topic of the DPF, i have never seen any sign of mine working in over 9000 miles, and i've not had any warning light. Either the Vpower is keeping soot levels that low that it doesn't need the DPF so much, or its cleaning quite frequently and the burn off is so minimal that its not noticed.

Either way, i have no idea if its ever doe a regeneration burn since i've had it.

[Heidfirst]

and probably explains why Toyota dropped all their 2.2 and 2.0 diesel engines nearly 2 years ago.

given that they are still available in an Auris in other parts of Europe e.g. Germany this is obviously a Toyota UK marketing decision.

& they are of course still available in Avensis, RAV4 etc.

as for petrol v a modern common rail turbodiesel my current thinking is if you do enough mileage within the warranty period to make the fuel savings pay for the higher initial cost then fine run a diesel but get shot of it when the warranty runs out as pretty much anything that goes wrong ( injectors, turbo etc. etc.) is going to cost 4 figures to fix. Your average petrol I think is generally cheaper to fix so I would feel more confident running one out of warranty. Just my opinion & others may (almost certainly will) vary.

[Mistermena]

Right now where I am a litre of derv is 1.39 and petrol is 1.34, that's 5p. Where do you live?

Point about a diesel car is this... The slightly older ones before the compulsory dpf makes a lot of sense, my gf's A3 2.0tdi returns 45mpg no matter how she drives it, and she drives like she stole it most times.

Also if you dont care about the stuff that gets chucked out the back of a non dpf'ed diesel then its ok, but the fact is diesel exhaust is dirty and very harmful if un treated.

I am not going to suddenly advocate petrol over diesel just cos its now what I drive, both have their pros and cons. I know that in my 2.0 petrol I don't need to worry about dpf, egr, proportion of urban driving (which is something that I find ridiculous to have to worry about) and just drive it without worrying.

I might go back to diesel if and when I am convinced that they have resolved these 'technologies', and back to toyota if they make good quality cars again.

I live in Cardiff mate. And I'm happy to say that the difference in cost between Petrol and Diesel is so close that it makes more sence for me to have a oil burner over a petrol version of the same car. But I remember a time when derv was over 15p a ltr cheaper than petrol! Those were the days

I've owned loads of different types of cars from an Audi A6 3.2 ( 32v Petrol) to Vw Polo Tdi's. And I can honestly say that I find a diesel more fun to drive. And given that the Avensis T-180 has a D-CAT it makes it one of the lowest emmision oil burners you can drive.

[Cyker]

It is hard going back; Petrol engines just feel so gutless after driving a decent diesel

Older diesels are practically indestructible, but newer ones are chock full of so much high-tech high precision parts that it does have an effect on the reliability sadly :(

That and all the stupid things they put in to try and comply with emissions regs which harm efficiently and reliability for very little gain (The EGR is the worst; Lowers NOx but raises CO, CO2, particulates, SOx and lowers MPG!)

I don't even understand why they still use EGRs when they already have good multi-stage catalysts for breaking down NOx's, not to mention using multiple injections per cycle to reduce it!

[Crasstoe]

It is hard going back; Petrol engines just feel so gutless after driving a decent diesel

Older diesels are practically indestructible, but newer ones are chock full of so much high-tech high precision parts that it does have an effect on the reliability sadly :(

That and all the stupid things they put in to try and comply with emissions regs which harm efficiently and reliability for very little gain (The EGR is the worst; Lowers NOx but raises CO, CO2, particulates, SOx and lowers MPG!)

I don't even understand why they still use EGRs when they already have good multi-stage catalysts for breaking down NOx's, not to mention using multiple injections per cycle to reduce it!

Remember an EGRs original purpose is not that of emissions or fuel consumption but to keep combustion chamber temperatures down. Originally an American invention which explains why its crap!

[T Sport 1978]

and probably explains why Toyota dropped all their 2.2 and 2.0 diesel engines nearly 2 years ago.

given that they are still available in an Auris in other parts of Europe e.g. Germany this is obviously a Toyota UK marketing decision.

& they are of course still available in Avensis, RAV4 etc.

as for petrol v a modern common rail turbodiesel my current thinking is if you do enough mileage within the warranty period to make the fuel savings pay for the higher initial cost then fine run a diesel but get shot of it when the warranty runs out as pretty much anything that goes wrong ( injectors, turbo etc. etc.) is going to cost 4 figures to fix. Your average petrol I think is generally cheaper to fix so I would feel more confident running one out of warranty. Just my opinion & others may (almost certainly will) vary.

The part regarding high repair bills outside of warranty is EXACTLY the point.

[T Sport 1978]

It is hard going back; Petrol engines just feel so gutless after driving a decent diesel

Older diesels are practically indestructible, but newer ones are chock full of so much high-tech high precision parts that it does have an effect on the reliability sadly :(

That and all the stupid things they put in to try and comply with emissions regs which harm efficiently and reliability for very little gain (The EGR is the worst; Lowers NOx but raises CO, CO2, particulates, SOx and lowers MPG!)

I don't even understand why they still use EGRs when they already have good multi-stage catalysts for breaking down NOx's, not to mention using multiple injections per cycle to reduce it!

The performance you get with the hugh torque is hard to get in a normal petrol, and I do miss the grunt of the T180.

I suppose you cant have everything

[Cyker]

Yeah, torque is fun :) It has made me a worse driver tho'; Whenever I drive someone's petrol car I keep stalling it until I get used to the seemingly huge amount of throttle I have to use when engaging the clutch compared to my Yaris

(And then I go back to my Yaris and accidentally power-start off the line because I was pressing the accelerator too much My clutch hates me...)

But hopefully electric tech will mature and we'll be able to have our cake and eat it too - High torque engines without all the diesel hate

Remember an EGRs original purpose is not that of emissions or fuel consumption but to keep combustion chamber temperatures down. Originally an American invention which explains why its crap!

But wasn't the whole point of lowering combustion temps to reduce NOx production?

I know California has much stricter emissions regs than we do and they were trying all sorts of things to try and lower NOx so that diesels could be driven there (EGR and urine injection were both 'invented' because of California regs ) but still it has virtually killed off diesel cars there.

Part of the reason petrols produce mainly CO2 and not much else is because their combustion temps are relatively low so there isn't enough energy to tear the N and S atoms apart (Although for reasons I don't understand the exhaust temps are much higher!? Apparently this is why it's very rare for petrol engines to have variable geometry turbos...)

Diesels OTOH need high temps because they don't use spark ignition so I don't get why they'd want to reduce combustion temps for the sake of it; I'd imagine that would cause a very noticeable power loss (Well, I suppose we know it does from all the anecdotes of people with stuck-open EGR's! )

Also, a friend pointed out to me that one big difference between newer diesels and the old indestructible ones is that the newer ones use weaker but lighter alloy engines whereas old ones were massive steel lumps which were much stronger but contributed to the 'interesting' handling characteristics of old heavy diesels

That would go a long way to explain why the 1.4 D4D has been so bullet proof but the bigger ones seem to be having so many more problems...

[Jamesbelfast]

Petrol engines run at higher temperatures. Diesel runs much cooler. The reason being a diesel engines can convert more energy into motion thus making them more economical and with more torque at lower rpm. Diesel engine are known as free-air breathers in other words they don't have throttles in the traditional sense so they tend to have a larger oxygen intake. It's the high oxygen content which raises the NOX emmission levels.

Both petrol and diesel engines can be fitted iwth EGR valves - in fact Vauxhall had then in the late eighties.

EGR valves were introduced to reduce the amount of NOX emitted which when it interacts with air and sunlight produces a brown smog and we all know smog ain't healthy. If you look at some old photographs of cities such as LA and Athens you can actually see an orange fog hanging overhead. Additionally DPF's (diesel particulate filters) are now fitted to modern diesels in an attempt to overcome the environmental issues raised by certain countries.

New technology and material design has allowed modern diesels to be made much lighter. One way of doing this is not just to improve the materials but also how to improve their inherent strength by using bolts and fitting with higher elasticity values similar in the way that reinforcement bars are used in pre-stressed concrete. It has also been possible to reduce compression ratios due to high pressure injection systems which can atomise the injected fuel much more efficiently.:)

[Mistermena]

Petrol engines run at higher temperatures. Diesel runs much cooler. The reason being a diesel engines can convert more energy into motion thus making them more economical and with more torque at lower rpm. Diesel engine are known as free-air breathers in other words they don't have throttles in the traditional sense so they tend to have a larger oxygen intake. It's the high oxygen content which raises the NOX emmission levels.

Both petrol and diesel engines can be fitted iwth EGR valves - in fact Vauxhall had then in the late eighties.

EGR valves were introduced to reduce the amount of NOX emitted which when it interacts with air and sunlight produces a brown smog and we all know smog ain't healthy. If you look at some old photographs of cities such as LA and Athens you can actually see an orange fog hanging overhead. Additionally DPF's (diesel particulate filters) are now fitted to modern diesels in an attempt to overcome the environmental issues raised by certain countries.

New technology and material design has allowed modern diesels to be made much lighter. One way of doing this is not just to improve the materials but also how to improve their inherent strength by using bolts and fitting with higher elasticity values similar in the way that reinforcement bars are used in pre-stressed concrete. It has also been possible to reduce compression ratios due to high pressure injection systems which can atomise the injected fuel much more efficiently.:)

Great post James

[T Sport 1978]

Petrol engines run at higher temperatures. Diesel runs much cooler. The reason being a diesel engines can convert more energy into motion thus making them more economical and with more torque at lower rpm. Diesel engine are known as free-air breathers in other words they don't have throttles in the traditional sense so they tend to have a larger oxygen intake. It's the high oxygen content which raises the NOX emmission levels.

Both petrol and diesel engines can be fitted iwth EGR valves - in fact Vauxhall had then in the late eighties.

EGR valves were introduced to reduce the amount of NOX emitted which when it interacts with air and sunlight produces a brown smog and we all know smog ain't healthy. If you look at some old photographs of cities such as LA and Athens you can actually see an orange fog hanging overhead. Additionally DPF's (diesel particulate filters) are now fitted to modern diesels in an attempt to overcome the environmental issues raised by certain countries.

New technology and material design has allowed modern diesels to be made much lighter. One way of doing this is not just to improve the materials but also how to improve their inherent strength by using bolts and fitting with higher elasticity values similar in the way that reinforcement bars are used in pre-stressed concrete. It has also been possible to reduce compression ratios due to high pressure injection systems which can atomise the injected fuel much more efficiently.:)

Good info.

All very well but the implementation of such technology whilst necessary, it lowers reliability of the cars and creates problems such as high maintenance cost and dictates how customers use their cars. Technologies that works should never hinder the product that uses it, if that makes sense.

[Crasstoe]

All very well but the implementation of such technology whilst necessary, it lowers reliability of the cars and creates problems such as high maintenance cost and dictates how customers use their cars. Technologies that works should never hinder the product that uses it, if that makes sense.

You mean it should be a step forward not a chain and ball round the ankle? If so I agree :)

[Daveyonthemove]

Well here is something to think about...

Our 2.2 180 diesel engines are 'clean' enough to exceed Euro V guidelines, but not quite enough to meet Euro VI, so when the next generation of diesel engines are released to meet this requirement, our economy will probably suffer even more, or we will have to make do with smaller engines with lower outputs, or keep an older diesel engine with good MPG and power figures, but pay through the nose for Road tax.

I think the popularity of diesel engined cars has been part of the problem we now face today.

[Heidfirst]

The part regarding high repair bills outside of warranty is EXACTLY the point.

those aren't unique to Toyota though but are common across modern high pressure common rail turbodiesels from many if not all manufacturers.

& if we end up with similar tech on petrol cars as we seem to be heading (look at Ford's EcoBoost) then imo we'll see exactly the same scenario with those.