Do I Regret Selling The T180

[acetip]

some years back my son inlaw brought a ford approved Fiesta from a small indepenent ford dealership.it only done about 200 miles from new.at about 2000 miles he started getting brake failure,the pedal would go right to the floor.i did not happen all the time,but when it did it was very frightening for him.

he took the car back to the dealer,who said there was nothing wrong with the brakes.

three times he returned the car for the fault,but kept getting the same answer from them.

when he told me about it,i had a look at the car,all seemed ok,brake fluid level ok,pedal right high when applying brakes,not at all spongy.

then i remembered reading somewhere of Fiesta brake problems.

so i called at my local ford main dealers,and luckly the workshop foreman was at the reception desk.i explained the problem with Fiesta brakes and asked was there a recall for this problem.he said there was indeed.i did not have the car with me at the time,if i had he could have checked if it had a paint on the master cylinder indicating that the recall had been done,which involved replacing piston seals in the master cylinder with modified types.any he asked me to phone him with the vin number and he would check if the cars was one of the batch needing this brake mod.

anyway it turns out this car did need this mod,and i took it in for my son inlaw,and when they stripped out the m/cylinder they found the bore of it had a score mark.so contacted Ford who told them to fit a complete new m/cylinder of the latest spec.

the son inlaw had no more trouble with the brakes after this,or indeed the car.

i cant praise the main dealer enough,they did not sell this car to my son inlaw.but they were polite,and nothing seemed to much trouble to get the problem soted out.

as you can imagine i was spitting feathers over the garage who sold the car.i phoned the and spoke to the manager and asked what kind of workshop staff the employed,who dealt with Ford cars and should be aware of all recalls and did not even check if the m/cylinder mod had been carried out if a customer complains about brake problems.

i explained that my son inlaw often had his children in the car and had there been a accident due to the brakes failing,and there had been injuries to them an other parties,

the courts would hold him and his staff responsible.when i had finished talking to him i think he learnt a few words he may have not heared before.

I know where you are coming from here and will point out Toyota dealership in Derby sold us the Auris T180 with the steering recall 6 months overdue and still awaiting to be done along with other faults, this just shows how some dealerships do their job properly and others don't regardless of the manufacturer and what's worse is the dealership get to charge the manufacturer for putting the car right so in all fairness they lost money and possible return customers for their negligent attitude.

Maybe this is a case of the sales and service departments not communicating

anywork other than warranty on a s/hand car that that needs done such as when a salesman says we will give the car aervice before you collect it sir.the sales dept have to pay the workshop dept for that work.and this eats into the profit of the sale.anyone on the premisis can pick up a rubber stamp and show a phantom service in the service book.

ask to see the workshop service sheets to confirm the work was done.

[Rick D4D]

yes I agree and know this but when the car is 15months old and had an outstanding recall to be done from 6 months ago the dealership should have done this and they would have been paid by Toyota regardless of age as it is a recall just like the Fiesta above.

[acetip]

yes I agree and know this but when the car is 15months old and had an outstanding recall to be done from 6 months ago the dealership should have done this and they would have been paid by Toyota regardless of age as it is a recall just like the Fiesta above.

yes,i see your point.they had no escuse for not carrying the work out.

[CTR_Paul]

Rick,

The grass is always greener my friend, as per your 'I do regret selling the CTR' thread lol:

Well the CTR has been gone a few weeks now so how do I compare the Auris to the CTR' date=' Well I do miss the vtec and my sound system but have no intensions changing the Auris one has I have a £1500 sat nav unit. Other than that I don’t miss the CTR that much, I definitely don’t miss the road / tyre noise or the 3600rpm to do 70mph on the motorway and the fuel consumption. So to the Auris is definitely not a sports car so no comparison will be 100% fair but the Handling is good but as you imagine the CTR was a lot sharper due to the lower / harder ride. With buying the T180 Auris which has a specification of its own, it is fully loaded with everything and the climate control is brilliant and TBH honest my mates EP2 has climate control and its crap. The keyless entry and car driving is very good (the fob just stays in your pocket) I would have preferred a key if given a choice but now I have used it I would say it’s just better. Now for the power the Auris is 2 seconds slower to 60mph than the CTR so yes its slower but TBH once the CTR is in 3rd gear I think the Auris is more than quick enough to keep it honest or maybe a little quicker as the diesel engine sure does have plenty of mid range pull but its just not as useable at slower speeds due to the shorter rev range etc.

So yes all in all I am happy with my decision to let the CTR go and buy a diesel which returned 432miles for £35 of diesel. I would say one thing that if Honda had done a diesel civic with CTR spec on looks etc I think I would have gone for the Civic again, but in the current climate with cars taxed on emissions etc the CTR driver is just getting hammered along with the 4x4 drivers and I think it will get a lot worse in the next 5 years once the economy picks up and TBH that was one of the main reasons of why the new car had to be a diesel apart form the obvious MPG. I would also like to say I was looking at the Civic 2.2 es but these just look so plain compared to the FN2 etc hence why I did not buy Honda again.[/quote']

On a more serious note though having swapped from a CTR to swap to a 18 month old Auris Sr180 is one heck of a change. It's absolutely nothing like a CTR, which is great (in most of ways), because although CTRs are absolutely fabulous cars they're rather limited in what they do well. The Auris is far far more akin the ST170 my wife used to own (prior to her swapping it for a Yaris 1.33, which is a better overall car and £ for £ is better than the CTR, Auris and ST170, but you pay with only having 101hp)

So IMO here's the pro's and con's of the Auris from my perspetive:

+ MPG (avg 47 over two tanks thus far), that's ~15mpg up on my CTR which I ran on V-Power only

+ The ride, softer, no snap oversteer, far better on the motorway, but not as soggy as a standard hatchback, a comprimise.

+ The image or lack of, it doesn't attract the sort of attention that the CTR did, which is nice when you're not 21 anymore!

+ Far far far less road noise, it means I'm not limited to short journeys anymore.

+ Cheaper tax & insurance.

+ AC that actually does something!

+ Better dealerships (Lindop were great when I got the wife's Yaris from them, Bentleys far less so)

+ VSC & TC, not required in the dry, but on a wet road I've had some serious 'moments' in the CTR (which has neither).

- Not as fun to drive, the CTR is great fun and makes a great noise.

- Seats aren't as good, neither is the steering wheel or gearshift.

- Doesn't look as nice

- Dull reputation

- Interior plastics are a biff naff in places

- Stereo better than CTR but still poor

- Not as quick as my previous CTR, but I would say it's quicker than the wife's ST170 was.

I'll see how I get on with it anyhow, it's not what I was really after (I wanted a 09/10 320d MSport) but BMW's reliability and ability to solve issues (such as clutch judder) seemed to be worringly poor. For that reason I decided to save a load of money (Auris 45% cheaper to buy than BMW), get an Auris with a longer warrenty and save my pennies for a rainy day.

[Rick D4D]

Rick,

The grass is always greener my friend, as per your 'I do regret selling the CTR' thread lol:

Well the CTR has been gone a few weeks now so how do I compare the Auris to the CTR' date=' Well I do miss the vtec and my sound system but have no intensions changing the Auris one has I have a £1500 sat nav unit. Other than that I don’t miss the CTR that much, I definitely don’t miss the road / tyre noise or the 3600rpm to do 70mph on the motorway and the fuel consumption. So to the Auris is definitely not a sports car so no comparison will be 100% fair but the Handling is good but as you imagine the CTR was a lot sharper due to the lower / harder ride. With buying the T180 Auris which has a specification of its own, it is fully loaded with everything and the climate control is brilliant and TBH honest my mates EP2 has climate control and its crap. The keyless entry and car driving is very good (the fob just stays in your pocket) I would have preferred a key if given a choice but now I have used it I would say it’s just better. Now for the power the Auris is 2 seconds slower to 60mph than the CTR so yes its slower but TBH once the CTR is in 3rd gear I think the Auris is more than quick enough to keep it honest or maybe a little quicker as the diesel engine sure does have plenty of mid range pull but its just not as useable at slower speeds due to the shorter rev range etc.

So yes all in all I am happy with my decision to let the CTR go and buy a diesel which returned 432miles for £35 of diesel. I would say one thing that if Honda had done a diesel civic with CTR spec on looks etc I think I would have gone for the Civic again, but in the current climate with cars taxed on emissions etc the CTR driver is just getting hammered along with the 4x4 drivers and I think it will get a lot worse in the next 5 years once the economy picks up and TBH that was one of the main reasons of why the new car had to be a diesel apart form the obvious MPG. I would also like to say I was looking at the Civic 2.2 es but these just look so plain compared to the FN2 etc hence why I did not buy Honda again.[/quote']

On a more serious note though having swapped from a CTR to swap to a 18 month old Auris Sr180 is one heck of a change. It's absolutely nothing like a CTR, which is great (in most of ways), because although CTRs are absolutely fabulous cars they're rather limited in what they do well. The Auris is far far more akin the ST170 my wife used to own (prior to her swapping it for a Yaris 1.33, which is a better overall car and £ for £ is better than the CTR, Auris and ST170, but you pay with only having 101hp)

So IMO here's the pro's and con's of the Auris from my perspetive:

+ MPG (avg 47 over two tanks thus far), that's ~15mpg up on my CTR which I ran on V-Power only

+ The ride, softer, no snap oversteer, far better on the motorway, but not as soggy as a standard hatchback, a comprimise.

+ The image or lack of, it doesn't attract the sort of attention that the CTR did, which is nice when you're not 21 anymore!

+ Far far far less road noise, it means I'm not limited to short journeys anymore.

+ Cheaper tax & insurance.

+ AC that actually does something!

+ Better dealerships (Lindop were great when I got the wife's Yaris from them, Bentleys far less so)

+ VSC & TC, not required in the dry, but on a wet road I've had some serious 'moments' in the CTR (which has neither).

- Not as fun to drive, the CTR is great fun and makes a great noise.

- Seats aren't as good, neither is the steering wheel or gearshift.

- Doesn't look as nice

- Dull reputation

- Interior plastics are a biff naff in places

- Stereo better than CTR but still poor

- Not as quick as my previous CTR, but I would say it's quicker than the wife's ST170 was.

I'll see how I get on with it anyhow, it's not what I was really after (I wanted a 09/10 320d MSport) but BMW's reliability and ability to solve issues (such as clutch judder) seemed to be worringly poor. For that reason I decided to save a load of money (Auris 45% cheaper to buy than BMW), get an Auris with a longer warrenty and save my pennies for a rainy day.

The grass is not always greener, when I wrote the above the T180 was doing good on fuel but over the next 18months the 40-44mpg dropped to 28-32mpg with no explanation form Toyota or faults that could be found. We also had warranty work carried out I think 11 times in 2 years + 2 x recalls which is an high amount but was the T180 a bad car? well no and we loved the keyless entry and the overhaul package of the car but was left very disappointed in the end by a car that does not do anywhere near close to what Toyota say it can do yet Toyota say there is nothing wrong with the car. I will be honest and say we bought a CRZ and 5 months later I can say for sure this is one of the best cars we have ever had and just a shame the back seat is useless unless your 4ft tall but again we did know this when we bought the car and as for driving style we now know the poor MPG was not our driving style as we are returning around 49MPG every week for short 10min drive to work and around town.

on your comments here is my opinion

- MPG (avg 44 over a few tanks when 1st bought the car but 18months later that was around 28-32), was better than the CTR at first but in the end was no cheaper to run but the CRZ on average is returning at least 70% more than we got out of the T180 when we got rid and the worst tank we have had to date was 45MPG when the weather was cold.

+ The ride, softer far better on the motorway which helps a lot with cruise control but not as soggy as a standard hatchback.

+ The image or lack of, it doesn't attract the sort of attention that the CTR did or the dents in carpark form jealous scum, which is nice when you're not 21 anymore!

+ Far far far less road noise.

+ Cheaper tax & insurance.

+ AC that actually does something, well really good climate control and a sunroof.

+ Better dealerships (Ron Brooks Mansfield fantastic without a doubt)

0 VSC & TC, not required in the dry, but on a wet road I've had some serious 'moments' in the CTR. Dont agree here should buy good rubber and not drive like an idiot.

- Not as fun to drive, the CTR is great fun and makes a great noise.

- Seats aren't as good, neither is the steering wheel or gearshift.

- Doesn't look as nice

- Dull reputation

- Interior plastics are a biff naff in places and rattle a lot

- Stereo was the built in sat nav and looked good but was still naff, the CRZ unit is the best I have ever owned (including after market apart from the little sub) but does lack a display with trick graphics

- Not as quick as my previous CTR, and to be fair slower of the line than the CRZ but was very handy once in 3rd gear and up thanks to the turbo but will say for a small engine the CRZ is better than you think and with the electric motor does work very well.

What I will say Paul is that the thing is with the T180/SR180 is 50% of people have no problems and the others have loads and get really poor MPG and I hope that yours works out ok, if it does not then like us in a few months you might not fully agree with what you have said above and for sure when we eventually got rid of the T180 I did wonder what I had gained swapping the CTR for it mas the running cost where no cheaper? I will also say the main reason the T180 went was poor MPG creating very high running cost and no warranty left on the car, in the end I come to the conclusion that if we are not driving heavy footed then if the car is returning that bad an MPG (up to 50% less than some owner here claim to get) then an expensive repair was probably on the horizon so decided to cut our loses and swap the car to which I have no regrets at all.

When it comes to cost the CRZ new was just over £19k and we bought it with 500mile on the clock so got a decent price and even though we now pay £60pm more for this than the T180 due to cheaper insurance, road tax, better MPG we are around £60pm better off and now have a car with warranty and which is worth more so the decision to swap was not based entirely on the cars but also cost and this did to be fair work out better than we thought by around £30pm. The other plus was this being an Hybrid it will always be more sought after so should help future resale value as well, we did try an Auris Hybrid and did ask for prices from a salesman who could not be bothered to sort this out but to be fair we was not keen on the CVT gearbox and once we tried the CRZ it was no longer an option.

[CTR_Paul]

Thats cool Rick, I wasn't having a go at you, just saying a new car should be better really :-) Although perhaps comparisons on things like MPG vs a Hybrid are a little unfair? Just as comparing a CTR to T/SR180 for road noise is too? Just a thought anyhow.

RE: VSC & TC and my moments in my CTR, I did buy decent rubber, infact I got shot of Yoko Parada's because they were lethal in the wet and returned to P-Zero Nero's (which are very good in the wet). The issue wasn't that the car oversteered, it was the lack of warning or feel prior to it. In the wet my CTR was plain dangerous, irrelavent of tyres, suspension(oem, tein coilovers, tein springs)and the alignment (I had fast road, oem & a very aggressive setup at one point) all done professionally by my friends at TDI. Having driven other CTR's most of them were far better than mine in that respect, but a couple were the same. It's not something you want when you're driving home from work on a cold Decemeber evening and drive round a corner and although the car in front went round ok, you're suddenly having to catch the rear of the car. I'd not be complaining if it was during a spirited drive, or I'd provoked it, but when you're pootling along it's the last thing you need. I think the facelifted CTRs were far less snappy.

All that said if Honda do a CRZ Type R I'll be in for that, as I want something with a bit of power, good mpg and decent reliability.

[Rick D4D]

Thats cool Rick, I wasn't having a go at you, just saying a new car should be better really :-) Although perhaps comparisons on things like MPG vs a Hybrid are a little unfair? Just as comparing a CTR to T/SR180 for road noise is too? Just a thought anyhow.

RE: VSC & TC and my moments in my CTR, I did buy decent rubber, infact I got shot of Yoko Parada's because they were lethal in the wet and returned to P-Zero Nero's (which are very good in the wet). The issue wasn't that the car oversteered, it was the lack of warning or feel prior to it. In the wet my CTR was plain dangerous, irrelavent of tyres, suspension(oem, tein coilovers, tein springs)and the alignment (I had fast road, oem & a very aggressive setup at one point) all done professionally by my friends at TDI. Having driven other CTR's most of them were far better than mine in that respect, but a couple were the same. It's not something you want when you're driving home from work on a cold Decemeber evening and drive round a corner and although the car in front went round ok, you're suddenly having to catch the rear of the car. I'd not be complaining if it was during a spirited drive, or I'd provoked it, but when you're pootling along it's the last thing you need. I think the facelifted CTRs were far less snappy.

All that said if Honda do a CRZ Type R I'll be in for that, as I want something with a bit of power, good mpg and decent reliability.

Now you wont believe this but I used to run 215/40/17 Parada's on the CTR and rated them a lot, if I was giving vtec (6000rpm+) in wet conditions not damp they would spin but what do I expect? apart from that they was great but I did get mine 4 wheel laser aligned the one where they use computers and you get a print out but to oem settings and could not fault it (mine was an 04 EP3 facelift), I never had the rear step out wet or dry but did have a rough time in snow on the oem pots which drove and handled great apart from every time you touched the brakes the car would lock up and again the Yoko's were fine.

The CRZ I will say is everyone like you and I used to think that its underpowered and yes compared to the T/SR180 it is but not by as much as you think as it is a light car, the most noticeable difference I would say is to make pace quick you need to be in the right gear so you are revving like all vtec engines as pick up is a lot slower unlike a CTR. Compared to the T180 the CRZ would leave it for dead off the lights but say 50-70 6th gear the CRZ would be nowhere as the T180 would just pick up and go where at the CRZ will be more like an egg timer unless you changed gear and then it would hang on if you used all the revs.

Now for comparing a diesel car against a Hybrid for MPG is not fair but then Toyota quote around 56MPG extra urban for the T180 and the most we ever got on a full tank long runs no more than 70MPH or 2200RPM was 46MPG and that was when the T180 was good, a year later the same run returned 40MPG and 8 months later a 70mph 120mile M1 / A roads to Swindon for the CRZ returned a crap 32MPG and at the time the weekly average would be around 27MPG. Now Honda I think quote around 64MPG for the CRZ extra urban for the CRZ and so far on one 80mile round trip journey we have had 63MPG. Now when both cars are supposedly tested to the same conditions to get these figures I see that we got close with the CRZ where as with the T180 we never got to within 20% of what Toyota quote and in the end we would struggle to even get the town driving quoted figure of 36MPG even on long steady runs yet Toyota who had the car for 2 days and was also taken back to the factory and tested / drove by someone from there not the local dealer about this just claimed the car was fine and it was either the fuel we put in or our driving style and yes I got an official written report from Toyota UK claiming this fact. The thing is would you have bought a SR180 if you was told that 32MPG was the best you would get? well for me the answer is no I was expecting around 45-50MPG if driven correctly and was told at time of the sale this was achievable easy enough.

[Lorna2]

I don't think any of the major manufacturers can be judged on how many recalls affect them, it is more important to sort them quickly without undue fuss

Toyota were praised for their handling of the pedal recall, the speed in which it was completed worldwide has never been seen before by ANY manufacturer EVER

Take a look at any manufacturer you like on the VOSA website for recalls, Honda for instance have had 3 recalls so far in 2011 alone. Civic engine stall, CRV, fuel leak from diesel pump and Jazz, headlights may not illuminate correctly. Its the way in which they get handled that is important

Kingo

This is very true but I feel that you are very biased John as you make a living selling Toyota cars but then again for interesting facts would you like to tell us all how many recall Toyota have done in 2011 and maybe the other big players so we get a picture who is recalling cars at the moment.

Now about the Toyota pedal recall yes they may have sorted them quickly without undue fuss but if my memory serves me correct it took Toyota a long time to admit there was a problem in the states before then acting on this. I am not saying Toyota are any worse than Honda or Ford or even GM but by the standards Toyota them selves set though the 90s etc this just goes to show with the size of the recalls how they have lost their way or are now happier to fit cheaper sub standard / or not as strictly quality controlled parts over what they would in the past.

It does not matter what car you buy the chances are at some point in its life of the model it would most likely have a recall but like I said earlier 9 warranty claims on a less than 40k 3 year old car is an high number of problems and to be fair to Toyota most if not all was finish quality or wear caused by poor quality of materials used and this just goes to show how quality control has slipped or how cheaper parts are bought from suppliers, not one fault was mechanical. On Toyota's side I was very happy how all these problems were rectified quickly and at no cost to me and apart from the poor MPG issue I was more than happy with the service provided and I cant say that about my Mercedes experience. If Toyota had done a car we liked and fitted what we wanted I would have taken a closer look and I did with the Auris Hybrid but the transmission is what I did not like even though this a superior Hybrid to the CRZ but then the CRZ is a more around drivers car, what I would say is after the T180 experience with quoted figures I would have wanted a 24hour test drive to be sure before buying.

Rick

It is far better for a manufacturer to have a recall and fix the potential problem,than to ignore the problem as quite a few other manufacturers have done - such as vauxhall meriva power steering failure problem,vauxhall owners had been campaigning for years,and ended up going on Panorama to try to force vauxhall to recall their cars- vauxhall still refused,before eventually giving in months later. Next manufacturer, Passenger brake recall,which started with Citroen,then spread to Renault and Peugeot who kept quiet when the problem first emerged.Peugoet had originally DENIED that their cars were affected by the passenger brake recall...then Puegoet had to recall their cars too.Again the customers of Citroen,renault and peugoet had to bring their problems to a campaign before the manufacturers accepted there was a problem.

Also Rick,I had a chevrolet and it was riddled in faults,the dealers couldn't fix it,had the worst customer service I have ever experienced,they had the car in many times but couldn't fix it.A chevrolet recall was needed but never happened, it had a faulty starter, faulty electrics and many other problems.

My parents had a young fiesta, sparks flew out from amongst the pedals - a potential fire risk but no recall. Also had a corsa recalled for faulty crash bars. Seem to remember a Honda one for airbags which could spray the occupants of the car with shards of sharp material.

Rick, what about Mitubishi hiding customer complaints for 20 years, which were then found in a raid of the head office,not in recent years,but if you look in the right place you will find it as I did.

Rick I can tell you now that it would be impossible for you to name a brand of car that has not had recalls.Those of us who take an interest in cars see that all brands have had many recalls,such as can be found on mototing websites,and plenty on vosa. Give me a Toyota any day,the best brand of car I ever had,I wouldn't go back to anything else,and the best staff in their centres compared to what can be found in other places.

Also Rick,if Kingo is a salesman,so what,he's still entitled to his opinion.

[mrpj]

"such as vauxhall meriva power steering failure problem,vauxhall owners had been campaigning for years,and ended up going on Panorama to try to force vauxhall to recall their cars-"

I had a Meriva which sufferd the power steering failure,along with lots of other problems including steering rack failure,another common fault which Vauxhall denied all knowledge of, fortunately within warranty period. When I first reported an EPS fault according to them it didn't exist because there was nothing stored in the ecu! It failed completely eventually so they couldn't deny anything, both the dealer and Vauxhall themselves denied there was a problem in spite of reports of failure all over the internet. VOSA were just as bad, it didn't merit a safety recall because, according to them, it wasn't a safety item, ie. the car could still be steered, they obviously used a couple of weight lifters with arms like Popeye when they carried out their tests.

All credit to Toyota in that they seem to react favourably with regards probable faults.

Just to be a bit picky, it was Watchdog, not Panorama, I was one of the many who contacted them and exchanged information. :)

[Lorna2]

"such as vauxhall meriva power steering failure problem,vauxhall owners had been campaigning for years,and ended up going on Panorama to try to force vauxhall to recall their cars-"

I had a Meriva which sufferd the power steering failure,along with lots of other problems including steering rack failure,another common fault which Vauxhall denied all knowledge of, fortunately within warranty period. When I first reported an EPS fault according to them it didn't exist because there was nothing stored in the ecu! It failed completely eventually so they couldn't deny anything, both the dealer and Vauxhall themselves denied there was a problem in spite of reports of failure all over the internet. VOSA were just as bad, it didn't merit a safety recall because, according to them, it wasn't a safety item, ie. the car could still be steered, they obviously used a couple of weight lifters with arms like Popeye when they carried out their tests.

All credit to Toyota in that they seem to react favourably with regards probable faults.

Just to be a bit picky, it was Watchdog, not Panorama, I was one of the many who contacted them and exchanged information. :)

'they obviously used a couple of weight lifters with arms like Popeye when they carried out their tests' I'd say they must have! It was disappointing of Vosa to ignore the meriva fault as it would probably fail MOT if it did that on test day. And you weren't being picky at all :)

[CTR_Paul]

Quick update on my SR180. 48.8mpg first tank I measured fully, car is reading 50.1mpg at present on my next tank (320miles and it's still half full!), that's commuting to and from work in traffic and sitting in roadworks. On a long run I think I could achieve the 56mpg Toyota claim for motorway driving, but at 70mph I think 46-9mpg is more realistic.

[Rick D4D]

Well its been 3 months now and yes some people might find this interesting and other will just slate me but I suppose this is the way it goes, around a month ago I posted the below in a thread about T180/SR180 buying and opinions

The car to be fair is very solid and not to many problems other than poor MPG, my advice is get a decent test drive and see what MPG you get but I would be prepared to expect as low as 30MPG and at best 40MPG but then some of these do 45-48MPG. The thing is no one seems to know why some owners get at best 35MPG where as others can get close to 50MPG and Toyota cant find anything wrong with the cars, I am an x T180 owner (same car apart from body trim) and at first we easily got 40-42MPG and even managed 46MPG but after around 15months of ownership our MPG started to drop and at one point we drove 300miles down the A1 at around 11pm from Edinburgh doing no more than 75 and only got 36MPG. The next day we took the car to Toyota and it was all checked over but no faults found, after 2 years of ownership I drove 110miles mainly motorway and A roads to fetch the new car and only got 32MPG. WTF? I was not driving the car hard and weather was good but 2 years ago the same drive would have returned around 43MPG so why did the MPG drop so much? The truth is I have no answer and Toyota don't or are not sharing this with me but the simple fact was in the end no matter how we drove the car 35MPG seemed the best we could get and for that reason we got rid.

The T180 had only covered 42k when we got rid so was not high mileage and everything seemed fine so I do I regret buying the T180? well no it was a good car and never really cost us anything other than wear and tear plus servicing but would I buy another? not a chance we 100% made the right decision in getting rid and this is mainly backed up for us by high fuel prices and low MPG from a diesel car that we expected was a good investment. I will also say that we did struggle to get the right money on part exchange as now all the dealers are well aware of T180/SR180 poor fuel economy and they told us this was the reason why they offered so little for our car.

I cant say this enough but make sure you get a good test drive so you are aware of the MPG this car will return for you as like I said this varies a lot for the same car and if you are only returning in the low 30s like ours was in the end then you can run a proper performance car for the same costs.

I would also like to say that we used to question if it was our driving in the end but I now know for sure it is not as the new car Honda quote a max of 64MPG and I have managed on one 70mile journey 61MPG and since we have owned the car we have an average of 48MPG for over 2000miles which obviously includes all the short journeys that people make, the T180 in the end was returning an average for this type of driving around 29-31MPG so this is over 50% better on fuel and around here petrol is now also around 6ppl cheaper than diesel.

So what so I honestly think? I will say I thought the same as above until I found our old T180 for sale http://www.vehicleim...ultImage=Toyota and what strikes me first is how a main Toyota dealer advertises the car with 35k on the clock but shows a photo of the speedo showing 41742 (this is correct) and that is nearly a 20% difference and mistake by the dealer.

But back to my thoughts about this and I can honestly say we did the right think and absolutely love the CRZ this is very underrated and may only be 121BHP but the electric motor gives it so much torque and is just simply a pleasure to drive, the build quality is better and noticeable along with MPG that we have never seen lower than 45MPG over a tank and have had 55MPG over a tank and up to 62MPG on some runs. My thought when I first found the T180 for sale again was I pity the poor guy who buys this and even though I still 100% feel this way I will say this more driven by very high running costs caused by a Toyota diesel engine that is quoted to give decent MPG 46MPG combined yet we used to get 50% less than this and according to Toyota that was normal and fine. I hate to say this and even though I was very very impressed by Toyota service the CRZ is my 2nd Honda and I would say wont be the last and I will be very wary of buying Toyota in the future due to misleading sale / quoted figures which in the end leads to an unhappy and out of pocket ex Toyota driver.

Like I said this is not I hate Toyota thread but an honest opinion on our experience of Toyota ownership and I guess it is a shame how a once mighty company with a reputation that cemented the old phrase (its Jap so great build quality and will run forever) has lost there way so much. The T180 was the flagship model at the time of manufacturer costing around £19k and yet the interior quality is a lot less of a cheaper ford focus probably because all the the cost was for the diesel engine and transmission which even though it is not 100% confirmed why but does have a serious design flaw which has led to lots of owners feeling like myself and probably explains why Toyota dropped all their 2.2 and 2.0 diesel engines nearly 2 years ago.

I do when I sit and think back now as an ex Toyota owner that over the last 5 years Toyota the worlds largest car manufacturer has lost there way with quality control or sourced to many cheap parts to cut cost and that would explain a lot of recalls over the last 2 years (more than any other manufacturer), on Toyota's side I always found that they sorted out any quality problems or faults on our Auris no problem at all and at no cost to myself apart from the poor MPG issue where I was just fobbed off with its down to the fuel in the tank.

16month update, well due to rear leg room and the birth of Lewis the CRZ has gone which is a shame as to be honest was one of the best cars we have ever owned. When we got the new car Honda Civic Type R I will be very honest and say I did look at an Insight (not old enough yet) and did look at a year old Puris which to be fair I could go for if it had not been the price, like for like 2009 model, around 10k on the clock the Puris cost around £8-£10k more and when I factored in resale value in 2-3 years we would just loose to much money and that was also thinking of the high running costs of the Civic. In the end it was a no brainer and we bought the Type R which over 6 winter months we have averaged 29.6MPG which is around the same as the T180 so we still have no regrets about getting rid and please note petrol is around 8-10ppl cheaper than diesel mind you I do miss the keyless entry and sunroof a little ;)