Gt4 Wrc St 205 Queries

[SCOOBY1988]

Hi fellas,

Ime a newbie here so i dont expect everyone to jump onboard and help me out but a few answers would be greatly appreciated. Ime looking at getting a celica gt4 wrc, ive decided on this car after discussing it over on a volvo forum and a guy new allot about celicas and suggested the wrc for a few reasons.

He said they come with factory fitted goodies like anti lag, water injection and a bigger turbo and charge cooler.

Firstly does it? he reckons the hardwares there but not basically connected is this the case? Also what on earth is a charge cooler, i take it it is an intercooler of some form but whats the difference when i look at pics of gt4's theres not the conventional intercooler rad ime used to seeing?

How are they with regards to breaking down and what kind of power can i safely push out of one before having to forge everything? Ime not a qualified mechanic but i fully rebuild 2 engines in the past year so i think my skills are good enough for any major works.

What would you fellas suggest when ime looking for one, is there any weak spots on the car like common faults and so forth?

Ive seen a white gt4 at the local cruise that got a ridiculous ammount of power, ide be happy with getting 0-60 in the mid 5 sec range is this possible without forging the block?

Basically ime after a quick awd car that looks cool sounds awesome and goes like stink, my volvo is rapid dont get me wrong ive had the speed limiter taken off and trust me you wont outrun one of them unless you can get past 180+ !!!!!! but it lacks the sports feel and the fun an awd car can offer.

Jay

[Leeky]

The WRC's are the earliest 2500 GT4's and all the extra WRC kit is disconnected.

You'll need an aftermarket ECU to enable things like the Anti-Lag and a stock turbo will last about 5mins with the AntiLag on.

The only reason to specifically buy a WRC is if you want it for its rarity. As you're otherwise just driving around a slightly heavier GT4. Personally i went for the JDM Non Sunroof Non ABS model as its the lightest GT4 available.

The spary bar and water injection is probably the only thing worth having but your better off getting an off the shelf solution as these stock systems arent the best by far.

JDM Cars have a low 5secs 0-60 in stock form. UK cars have less power and are slightly heavier with a 0-60 time for just below 6secs (ignore all the figures you see quoted in magazines, Toyota played down the GT4's performance to seperate it from the Supra. In real life there is very little in it between a supra and a GT4 0-60). The other benefit of an import is less corrosion and the ability to legally pass an MOT test without a CAT as long as the car is pre Aug 95. But a UK car can be taken to any Toyota Main Dealer, as they wont even look at an Import.

The charge cooler cools the intake via fluids and a pump. Vs an intercooler that uses just air.

The benefit of a charge cooler is a lot less lag than a front mount intercooler and its a lot more of an efficient system. The standard charge cooler is efficient to just over 400bhp, so unless you're going to tune the car above that there is no need to upgrade the system.

[SCOOBY1988]

The WRC's are the earliest 2500 GT4's and all the extra WRC kit is disconnected.

You'll need an aftermarket ECU to enable things like the Anti-Lag and a stock turbo will last about 5mins with the AntiLag on.

The only reason to specifically buy a WRC is if you want it for its rarity. As you're otherwise just driving around a slightly heavier GT4. Personally i went for the JDM Non Sunroof Non ABS model as its the lightest GT4 available.

The spary bar and water injection is probably the only thing worth having but your better off getting an off the shelf solution as these stock systems arent the best by far.

JDM Cars have a low 5secs 0-60 in stock form. UK cars have less power and are slightly heavier with a 0-60 time for just below 6secs (ignore all the figures you see quoted in magazines, Toyota played down the GT4's performance to seperate it from the Supra. In real life there is very little in it between a supra and a GT4 0-60). The other benefit of an import is less corrosion and the ability to legally pass an MOT test without a CAT as long as the car is pre Aug 95. But a UK car can be taken to any Toyota Main Dealer, as they wont even look at an Import.

The charge cooler cools the intake via fluids and a pump. Vs an intercooler that uses just air.

The benefit of a charge cooler is a lot less lag than a front mount intercooler and its a lot more of an efficient system. The standard charge cooler is efficient to just over 400bhp, so unless you're going to tune the car above that there is no need to upgrade the system.

Thanks for info mate, i really like the sound of antilag tho i wouldnt run it 24/7 just now n then if that can be done? I will more than lilly buy a bigger turbo anyway not to increase psi but for a smoother less restricive exhaust flow. are there turbos available that are stronger and more resiliant to anti lag?

I also will probably look into buying and installing an aftermarket ECU however ive a few questions about this as this will be the first time ive ever tuned a car. When you buy a new ecu when you plug it in will the car even run? or will i have to take the car to a mappers and then install the ECU and they program it to run the car? I would like to install a bigger turbo, get the water injection set up, a decent exhaust and De-Cat then get the ecu and a custom map what else should i be looking at replacing/changing in order to achieve 300BHP? Oh and as for MOT'S thats no worry for me ive a few mates work in garages so it wont be much of an issue

[Leeky]

Yes there are many aftermarket turbos about but if your goal is only 300bhp then the standard turbo is more than fine with that. Im making 330bhp on the standard turbo.

A bigger stronger turbo will cause greater lag, so again its going to cause a negative affect on the car's performance. The stock turbo isnt really that restrictive in terms of the power you are thinking about. It would be closer to 400bhp that the turbo needs replacing.

It depends which aftermarket ECU you buy. The usually come with a base map but this is only a starting point and will require someone who knows what they are doing with that ECU AND that Engine to tune it up for you. Rouge Motorsports are very good at 3SGTE tuning and did an aftermarket ecu for one of my old cars.

To get 300bhp all you really need is a full service, decat, unrestrictive exhaust system from the decat back (therefore you should end up with roughly a 2.5" pipe from the turbo blades all the way to the exit), some colder grade spark plugs, a performance panel filter/induction kit which is shielded off to avoid sucking in hot engine air and lastly a boost controller - either electronic or manual will do.

This should comfortable see you to over 300bhp on about 1.05-1.1bar of boost.

You dont need forged pistons unless you are going over 1.2bar of boost and you dont need to think about changing the turbo until you start to aim for over 400bhp.

[SCOOBY1988]

Ahh well then it would seem its not going to be too difficult to get what i want I did read somewhere that if you go above 0.9 bar on these engines thats the danger zone? Probably people talking without actually knowing hence why i joined this forum.

You say if i use the anti lag it will ruin the stock turbo, is this because it will be old and in need of a fresh replacemnet or can you get a stronger same size unit to handle the anti lag? Ive seen a few imprezas and evos with anti lag and theyve been running it for years and had no issues, also a guy who used to rally his impreza had it on a really harsh setting literally spitting flames and banging like a mother everytime he eased of the accelerator and his turbo lasted a few season so is it really that bad for the turbo?

Thanks for the help mate it is greatly appreciated.

Jay

[Leeky]

The GT4 boosts to 1bar standard... or at least all the GT4's i had have done.

No the standard ceramic turbo will be blown to bits with antilag enabled. Doesnt matter whether its new or old.

The GT4 Antilag system is a real Antilag system. What most EVO and Scooby owners use is an electronic device to keep the turbo spooled. A BEE-R Rev Limiter will cause fuel to go through the engine unburnt and enter the exhaust system where it ignites on the exhaust temps causing a very similar popping and flaming effect.

Its 99% for show and very very bad for your engine. My advice would be to stay clear of that kind of thing to ensure your GT4 spends more time on the road than in the garage.

Its wasted on a road car. Only worth having on an actual rally car in my honest opinion.

[GTForbes]

Like it's been said the standard turbo has a ceramic shaft so would shatter with anti lag, a stage 1 hybrid would change that out for a steel shaft making it stronger and newer.

The anti lag that you'll have seen on street is just the ignition being cut allowing fuel to make it into the exhaust making pops and bangs. Some evo's do have an air bypass system that allows anti-lag to be activated but it is all mild or else they would be buying new turbo's on a regular basis. Your friend who runs the rally car, although he'll have an aggressive anti-lag he won't be doing many miles in the car so it surviving a few seasons is normal.

What your better of doing is getting a standalone ecu and getting a good map on it, a good mapper should be able to make your car pop flames on lift off, if you want pop's and bangs to show off make sure it has a launch control function, we use 'link' systems as it has everything you need without having to buy add on's like you do with motec.

[Leeky]

we use 'link' systems

+1 for Link ECU's. I used one on my V8 MK2 Supra and its awesome.

Just to add, all 3 ST205's i've owned have popped and flammed with just an aftermarket exhaust and decat as they run very rich on the standard ecu.

[SCOOBY1988]

That explains it then, i did only want the anti lag just for the odd show off moment but if it really is gunna ruin the car ide rather spend the money on some decent rubber ! So to re-cap the WRC is no better than the standard st205 apart from the fact its a limited edition car? What are the figure 8's i keep hearing and riser blocks?

[dawesy]

nope no more power etc just extra weight.

the ST205 uses a super strut suspension on the front, basically its a complicated McPherson setup. the fig 8 joins the lower arm to the strut to control camber change.

its worth checking that there is no forward or backward movement on the front wheels or any clunks/bangs or grinding noises when going over rough ground. this indicates wear in the superstrut setup and parts are about £500 a side.

riser blocks fit in the rear spoiler to raise its hight, if you look at some they have a block on the spoiler that has GT-4 on, thats the raiser block.

you can safely run 1.1 bar on a stock engine. just be sure to use an electronic boost controller not a cheap bleed valve type.

[Leeky]

nope no more power etc just extra weight.

the ST205 uses a super strut suspension on the front, basically its a complicated McPherson setup. the fig 8 joins the lower arm to the strut to control camber change.

its worth checking that there is no forward or backward movement on the front wheels or any clunks/bangs or grinding noises when going over rough ground. this indicates wear in the superstrut setup and parts are about £500 a side.

riser blocks fit in the rear spoiler to raise its hight, if you look at some they have a block on the spoiler that has GT-4 on, thats the raiser block.

you can safely run 1.1 bar on a stock engine. just be sure to use an electronic boost controller not a cheap bleed valve type.

Hey dude, long time no speak :)

Seeing as you are the fountain of all 3SGTE knowledge i thought i'd sneak a quick question in if thats ok?

How restrictive is the air feed tube on an ST205 do you know?

I've got a HKS Mushroom and im wondering is there is a benefit enclosing it off so that i force it to only take air via this pipe.

Im hearing conflicting information. Some say that it would be good to get the fresh air via this pipe rather than how i currently get it from the hot engine bay. And then others tell me this pipe is a restriction and im better off leaving it to take in the engine bay air.

I've stripped the underneath of the bonnet and lagged the charge cooler so my underbonnet temps shouldnt be too bad.

Cheers :)

[SCOOBY1988]

I can tell you that cooler air from outside is 100% better than hot engine bay air. Volvo have this ridiculous idea of sandwiching the intercooler between the rad and the A/C rad, it doesnt help that the intercooler on the T5 is barely an inch thick in the first place !!! so anyway this means hot HOT intake temps if you giving it some so most run meth/water injection and fit front mounts just to cool it down. The density of the cooler air means it carries more oxygen which means a bigger bang in your cylinders, warmer air less oxygen. I cant see the intake system on a standard powerfull car being restricted to much and even so any restriction will be outweighed by cooler intake temps. Personally ide fit some kind of " Ram" air feed from somewhere if you want it to be best it can be.

Jay

[Leeky]

Hi SCOOBY1988,

Yes i already know all of this anyway but thanks for trying to help me.

What i wanted to know from Dawesy is whether the stand pipe feeding air to the air box on an ST205 in itself is a restriction - as it isnt a massive pipe and around the GT4 community there is conflicting opinions over this subject.

[GTForbes]

The pipe itself isn't restrictive to the point of lowering power figures but there is a resonator box in the inner wing (on the 185, not sure on the 205) which restricts airflow, remove that and you'll get more air through.

Generally people fit a straight intake to these cars, basically the less bends on the air pipework the higher flow you'll have from less effort, on the 205 it's pretty well designed so I wouldn't say it'd restrict you unless you were aiming above 450bhp

[SCOOBY1988]

Sorry Leeky my mistake pal, Do many of you remove one of the lights to fit a cold air feed like they do with some of the sierra cosworths?

[dawesy]

ive seen the high beam light removed but your car will fail the MOT because of it. better to take cod air from behind the foglight/inner wing area and put some sort of barrier between the filter and engine bay (nimbus sheet from demontweeks is good for this)

as said you want nice cold air fed to the turbo really and the stock inlet pipe isnt bad at its job.

[SCOOBY1988]

Ive another question for you guys, as youve informed me the anti-lag on the evos n subarus at crusises is not really anti lag whats the difference? What has the gt4 wrc got that makes it the real deal anti lag? As far as i understood it ( limited knowledge) its the ecu retarding the timing on 1 cylinder so it ignites as the exhaust port is open and this causes the popping and banging noise? However ive read there some kind of valve on the gt4 wrc so whats the deal how does it work? Ide very much like to turn it into a road worthy rally replica with all the fancy toys if possible?

[dawesy]

the system on the GT4 is for homologation for the WRC. it has a valve off the charge cooler just in front of the BOV that diverts air direct into the exhaust manifold if the system is activated. ignition is retarded by about 50deg and extra fuel pumped in, net result is a huge bang in the exhaust/turbo and lots of closed throttle boost.

the system you see a lot of on scoobies etc is much like i used to run on the rolla with the MoTec ecu. flick a switch inside to activate, this then energizes a solenoid that opens the throttle about 15-20% and activated the antilag in the ecu. ignition is retarded and the fuel explodes again in the turbo/exhaust. this type is a mild antilag as the engine rpm is higher due to the throttle being open.

i used to get 1.5 bar of boost with my antilag activated but the thrust bearings in the turbo were toast after about 6000 miles of occasional use

[shabzgt4rc]

my celica doesnt have antilag pops and bangs loud with 2 foot flames almost on every gear change..dont think theres any need for antilag my ceramic wheel blew off made a whole in the down pipe defo blow your turbo to bits hapend to me without antilag

[SCOOBY1988]

Thanks for clearing that up for me dawsey i get it now