The T180 Engine And Maybe The Cause Of Its Woes ?

[CharlieFarlie]

Took the car into the Dealers today who dipped the oil as promised and promptly agreed that the engine is to be replaced !!It is consuming rather a lot of Oil !! Plus it had emptied the expansion tank of its coolant on the near 400 mile trip down to the Midlands ..

The Service Manager who after many Years on the tools and I have to say an extremely knowledgeable Person explained that is the quality of the fuel We have (Diesel) in the UK that has been the cause of the issues ! The design of the engine means the rings cannot often tolerate the crap fuel We get...

He further explained that using the best fuel ensures the car will go 10% farther per gallon while costing 7% more !!!

Blimey I have always argued that using the cheap fuel was the best !!! It goes without saying that I will never use cheap Diesel in either the Rav or the XFS again...

My vehicle was the second car to be booked in today for exactly the same reason IE a new engine ......

So reasons why other cars with the same engine have not shown these symptoms ?? Well perhaps some of the better informed among You have always run You cars on the best fuel ?? Other parts of the world get much better quality fuel and it was explained percentage wise that They get far fewer problems than Us here in the UK.

So within the next 24 hour I will have a date for the engine to be changed.. In all honesty while I am disappointed that the car has to be messed with and have an engine change I simply cannot fault Toyota for its customer service or the staff at the Dealership for Their comprehensive knowledge and efforts to make the whole thing as painless as possible ! They are even giving Me a courtesy car !

Charlie.

[Parts-King]

So reasons why other cars with the same engine have not shown these symptoms ?? Well perhaps some of the better informed among You have always run You cars on the best fuel ?? Other parts of the world get much better quality fuel and it was explained percentage wise that They get far fewer problems than Us here in the UK.

I remember several years ago, that Europe was having very serious problems with engines of all marques, due specifically to poor quality fuel. I doubt anybody from the oil companies would agree, I would say the opposite Charlie, it is the UK that now appears to be getting the poor fuel

A friend of mine used to work at Thornton Research, the research arm of Shell at Stanlow in Ellesmere Port. They used to test engines to destruction and would buy parts off us by the thousands of pounds every month. They also tested additives to go in fuels, some countries in South America use alcohol to run their cars on, and they had to develop additives that stopped carb's from melting with the use of alcohol (yes it was a while ago) I don't know what the answer is to modern diesel, I guess you get what you pay for

Kingo

[CharlieFarlie]

Something else the Service Manger said was that while pottering around the locality where I live the car would not be burning oil or at least not as much oil. But when driven hard on the Motorway the consumption would go up dramatically... This would certainly explain why I only twigged the heavy consumption when I started tripping up and down the motorway from Scotlandshire to Worcestershire.....

Kingo ..I learnt more about Diesel fuel today then I thought possible !! The cheap stuff apparently clogs up the piston rings which are apparently low friction ..... This then allows the burning of the Oil and buggers the whole show up .. Well that's what I remember anyway .... He also said a whole lot more but I did not understand it !!!

Wee Charlie.

[wardude]

When mine was using oil, they just replaced the piston rings. It dont use a drop now. Seems a bit of an expense to go to if they can get away replacing rings on mine yet have now started changing whole engines

[abraxas]

Good that you are getting it sorted Charlie.

Since you have such a high opinion of the dealer, any chance of letting us know which one it is... for future ref? Is it in Fife? Or are you down in Englandshire at the mo? It's Not the same one that did a nice job on your paint work, is it?

Not sure if this contravenes the rules but Surely no dealer is going to complain about good publicity?

Cheers!

[CharlieFarlie]

When mine was using oil, they just replaced the piston rings. It dont use a drop now. Seems a bit of an expense to go to if they can get away replacing rings on mine yet have now started changing whole engines

Up until July 1 The policy was to repair the engines . Toyota have decided now to fit a new engine instead.. It cuts down on warranty hours charged by the Dealer to Toyota as most if not all Dealers are franchises and have to be paid.. I would guess that labour is far cheaper in Japan or where ever it is these numerous engines are rebuilt. There are also some modifications to the block its self which cut noise and a few other things.. This is covered on another thread By Anchorman.

A couple of Forum Members are on their second engine rebuild/replacement so maybe just doing the rings was not enough ?? I thought the initial rebuilds had Pistons and rings at least ??

Charlie.

[Manxrav]

No Charlie does his own paintwork and an excellent job as well. Doubt he would let anyone but himself near it!!!!!!!1

Regards Clare

[CharlieFarlie]

Good that you are getting it sorted Charlie.

Since you have such a high opinion of the dealer, any chance of letting us know which one it is... for future ref? Is it in Fife? Or are you down in Englandshire at the mo? It's Not the same one that did a nice job on your paint work, is it?

Not sure if this contravenes the rules but Surely no dealer is going to complain about good publicity?

Cheers!

I'm in Englandshire Mate. Not sure about the rules but will refrain from mentioning the Dealers until I have OKd it with them and the job is done .. That way if things go wrong and I do not for one minute think they will I am not condemning anyone...

And No its not the one that screwed up the paintwork...

Wee Charlie.

[abraxas]

I know :) was being sarcastic there. sorry. I was following the polishing instro thread with great interest...

Charlie complained about a dealer washing his Rav with a brillo pad :) well, maybe mot them exact words, but something to the effect :)

[abraxas]

Thanks Charlie!

I was just curious. Has some ummm... mixed ... luck with dealers recently so always grateful for a pointer!

Cheers mate.

[anchorman]

I've been trying to say about supermarket fuel for yonks ...................

[Manxrav]

That,s exactly why I will not allow a Dealer to "wash or valet" my cars when they go in for a service :censor:

Regards Clare

[CharlieFarlie]

I've been trying to say about supermarket fuel for yonks ...................

Don . I know and I was one of those that would not listen .................. But I will not be buying the cheap stuff any more !!

I still maintain that the regular diesels are all the same in both supermarkets and ordinary petrol stations .. Its the super duper stuff that differers and is what I will be using from now on ..

Wee Charlie.

[CharlieFarlie]

No Charlie does his own paintwork and an excellent job as well. Doubt he would let anyone but himself near it!!!!!!!1

Regards Clare

What happened Clare was that I machine polished the whole car and took it into a Fife Dealers for a Visual Health check. They then washed the car with a heavy brush and inflicted many swirl marks all over the car.. This was depite the fact that I had asked them not to wash it... The car was spotlessly clean when I took it in ...............

Wee Charlie.

[shcm]

Well, my opinion only, but I really don't "buy into" all the dealer said.

I admit, I run on the expensive stuff, because the vehicle goes nicely on it and I like that......but....

• Isn't there a minimum fuel standard right across Europe?
  
• Are we saying the fuel on sale in the UK doesn't meet that standard? In which case we should be kicking the oil companies?
  
• Vehicle manufacturers are well aware of varying fuel qualities across markets and test engines with all those fuels and develop engine tunes accordingly (well I know at least some do, I worked for one for a short while)
  
• Toyota really should be aware of the above, particularly if the engine was specifically developed for the EU market.
  
• I ran a 4.2 mostly on supermarket fuel - sweet as a nut for 60k miles - no problems.
  

I accept that engine testing will be tricky and that there will be a whole heap of variables to control. I also accept that any accelerated life type testing doesn't always find problems that surface later. However, to me it feels more like a design oversight, insufficient testing (perhaps pressure to get to market), or lack of production control, than just a problem with fuel quality.

Much as I hate to say it, I think Toyota just got it wrong this time and are doing their level best to fix it. Full marks to them for that.

Now I've been provocative............discuss. :).

[Davrav]

That's two of us with the same opinion then.

[CharlieFarlie]

Well, my opinion only, but I really don't "buy into" all the dealer said.

I admit, I run on the expensive stuff, because the vehicle goes nicely on it and I like that......but....

• Isn't there a minimum fuel standard right across Europe?
  
• Are we saying the fuel on sale in the UK doesn't meet that standard? In which case we should be kicking the oil companies?
  
• Vehicle manufacturers are well aware of varying fuel qualities across markets and test engines with all those fuels and develop engine tunes accordingly (well I know at least some do, I worked for one for a short while)
  
• Toyota really should be aware of the above, particularly if the engine was specifically developed for the EU market.
  
• I ran a 4.2 mostly on supermarket fuel - sweet as a nut for 60k miles - no problems.
  

I accept that engine testing will be tricky and that there will be a whole heap of variables to control. I also accept that any accelerated life type testing doesn't always find problems that surface later. However, to me it feels more like a design oversight, insufficient testing (perhaps pressure to get to market), or lack of production control, than just a problem with fuel quality.

Much as I hate to say it, I think Toyota just got it wrong this time and are doing their level best to fix it. Full marks to them for that.

Now I've been provocative............discuss. :).

As I understand it. The design of the original pistons and rings were not sufficient to withstand the poor fuel We get in the UK. So they fail. I have had over 30 Transit Diesels when in business and never had any piston related or any other engine failures at all . So I assume that the design of the Pistons and rings were better.

I also assume that the re designed pistons and rings which We all now know are modified so this will not happen again...

At least that's how it was explained to Me by a very keen and knowledgeable Service Manager that had been on the tools for most of His 31 Years with Toyota....

[shcm]

As I understand it. The design of the original pistons and rings were not sufficient to withstand the poor fuel We get in the UK.

So, presumably, they are not replacing engines anywhere else in the EU then? Just the UK?

[CharlieFarlie]

As I understand it. The design of the original pistons and rings were not sufficient to withstand the poor fuel We get in the UK.

So, presumably, they are not replacing engines anywhere else in the EU then? Just the UK?

Right please bear in mind this is as it was explained to Me ....

Engines in Country's or areas with better quality fuel are not getting as many problems.. There is obviously a major design fault that is being brought increasingly to light By poor fuel and of course time .. As in it seems these engines are ticking bombs !!

It would follow that say a car that has a knowledgeable or conscientious Owner that has had the car from new or nearly new may And has run the car on top Quality Premium Fuels will never suffer any problems at all. Or it could show after a far greater period of time or when the car is passed on to a lesser owner ??

I asked directly why these cars are not being recalled by Toyota and was told that if it was a safety issue they would have been.

Blimey Im glad I have not named that Dealer !! I would not want to get anyone into trouble. Especially some one Who is helping Me out ..

Wee Charlie.

[wardude]

so why 2 years ago did i only get new piston rings when mine was using oil. Why did I not get a new engine??

[shcm]

Blimey Im glad I have not named that Dealer !! I would not want to get anyone into trouble. Especially some one Who is helping Me out ..

Sorry, not getting at you Charlie

You will have to excuse the 1001 questions, comes with the day job I'm afraid.

The fuel still just sounds like a convenient excuse, to hide the real underlying problem, but just my opinion

[CharlieFarlie]

so why 2 years ago did i only get new piston rings when mine was using oil. Why did I not get a new engine??

That is explained above Mate.. Its a change in the repair policy by Toyota .. This is what I am told anyway !! This change took place on the 1st of July...

[abraxas]

I have to say that I am with Shcm on this one. I am not buying it.

Having experienced fuel in Southern and Eastern Europe, i think UK fuel is way up there with the good ones. And here is my theory: Simple reason - vast majority of the cost of fuel in UK is - tax. So, the actual fuel product is only a fraction of the cost. Also, tax evasion is a rather serious crime and officials... are lets say more rigorous and less succeptible to "looking the other way". Therefore "bulking up" the actual fuel with, say ... water, does very little for the bottom line. To top it off, consumer protection in UK is at a much higher level than in a lot of places. That increases the risk that you will have to pay for repairs/a new engine if your fuel causes any damage. (remember a recent saga with fuel quality and a well known supermarket chain). As a result, i think that it simply makes bad business sense to distribute bad fuel.

One thing that is not so good here - you don't get additives that keep the stuff from freezing, as we found out the last couple of years...

And how comes it is only Toyota that is getting all the problems? Surely other cars get the same fuel. I am affraid that poor design is more likely...

And, by the way, this is not really meant to be nasty to any other Europeans. The countries i am on about are significantly poorer then the UK. And we all know the old saying ( that get attributed to Bernie Ecclestone) : "...first you get rich.. Then you get honest " :) Things are getting progressively better in this respect in most places i visit...

Just my 2.24 euro cents... :)

[abraxas]

Hehe... I hope i am not coming across as belligerent either.. I am sure the dealer is telling you a story as he has been told it by Toyota (marketing department, possibly :) ). So, It is not really a dig aimed at the dealer either...

I don't really claim any expertise in the matter, we are just " chewing the fat" here and I am challenging the logic...

[anchorman]

I think this problem does indeed highlight some design weeknesses. This radically new design was developed in The European Centre for the Non - US markets and maybe not tested enough. The combination of oil consumption and newer electronic and far more accurate EGR than a 4.2 system cannot cope with the lowest grade fuel here. I am not convinced that supermarket fuel is the same as branded fuel and lacks some of the additives that produce less gumming.

My first 4.3 was particularly bad for knocking until I made the first step to branded fuel (Shell) then better again with high grade.

I guess there is a minimum standard and no doubt the supermarkets meet it. Maybe it needs raising?