The T180 Engine And Maybe The Cause Of Its Woes ?

[Parts-King]

I've been trying to say about supermarket fuel for yonks ...................

Me too, nobody believed me that there was a difference between supermarket and premium fuels

Kingo

[Big Kev]

It's amazing how this is starting to turn on its head....let me collaborate on that....

I got my car at 3000 miles,(now 21k) and at the behest of Anchorman and shcm, have only fed it with the top notch fuels, even to the extent of nearly running out in order to find "the good stuuf." If I am to believe the foregoing, and thanks to Charlie for reporting what a dealer has said,many owners who put the cheaper weasel widdle in are having problems, partly of their own making, but Toyota are correctly picking up said tab.

So us wans who have used the expensive fuel may NEVER have a problem, or it may manifest itself at a much later age....I am hoping its not at 7.5 years / 113,000 miles.

Are you ready for this???....return journey to That Manchester Airport....approx 600 miles....1 litre of oil used....GUBBERIT. Car just serviced at 20k the week before, and level checked. Never a drop used previously....

Hopefully just a coincidifier, eh....? Monitoring much more closely, and seems that it is MOTORWAY usage that burns the oil as Charlie suggests, as my usual pottering aboot Glesga has shown little or no oil usage.

Worried Kev

[CharlieFarlie]

Blimey Im glad I have not named that Dealer !! I would not want to get anyone into trouble. Especially some one Who is helping Me out ..

Sorry, not getting at you Charlie

You will have to excuse the 1001 questions, comes with the day job I'm afraid.

The fuel still just sounds like a convenient excuse, to hide the real underlying problem, but just my opinion

Cmon Mate Your the brainy one here !!Of course there is an underlying or design fault !! Thats why Toyota are picking up the tab for the engines...... The problem is exacerbated by the crap fuels We get ????? If the design had been better in the beginning.. then the problem would never have arisen.. Thats why in areas where the fuel is of a better quality there is less of a problem....

Wee Charlie.

[Monitorlizard]

One of the first points I picked up on,when I joined this forum,just over a year ago,was to use the quality fuel.Obviously good advice.

BJK

[shcm]

It's amazing how this is starting to turn on its head....let me collaborate on that....

I got my car at 3000 miles,(now 21k) and at the behest of Anchorman and shcm, have only fed it with the top notch fuels...........

Affable Kevster, I'm far from an engine expert, but I don't think it's unreasonable to assume a top fuel is going to keep the engine cleaner, reducing wear and clogging and so helping to eek out its life a bit more. However, without a good techy explanation, I can't subscribe to the "crap UK fuel is the underlying cause" point of view, for what is essentially premature engine wear. Many (inc me) have run diesels producing engine oil blacker than a Hawking radiation source (and rightly or wrongly I'm assuming therefore more evil engine destroying combustion products), but without any oil usage, for far far longer.

I also find it difficult to believe that the majority of fuel on sale in the UK is below a standard that Toyota should have tested with. Perhaps it's something like the emission regulations and/or low sulphur diesel are asking to much to produce an engine to the required standard at a reasonable cost. That again though, is just wild speculation. I'd love to see the real data, but unfortuately, I expect I never will.

Are you ready for this???....return journey to That Manchester Airport....approx 600 miles....1 litre of oil used....GUBBERIT. Car just serviced at 20k the week before, and level checked. Never a drop used previously....

Hopefully just a coincidifier, eh....? Monitoring much more closely, and seems that it is MOTORWAY usage that burns the oil as Charlie suggests, as my usual pottering aboot Glesga has shown little or no oil usage.

Isn't there a school of thought (Is it in one of Mr T's handbooks? ), that says short journeys build up condensate in the oil, which gets evaporated off with a nice hot engine on a high speed run and therefore can give the appearance of rapid oil consumption, i.e. if you've done a lot of short stuff followed by a high speed run? Surely less than 600 miles to do that though!?

Now I'll worry you - I wonder what oil they put in? ;). I assume you've checked for leaks?

Cmon Mate Your the brainy one here !!Of course there is an underlying or design fault !! Thats why Toyota are picking up the tab for the engines...... The problem is exacerbated by the crap fuels We get ?????

To be fair Charlie, the first post says the dealer said the cause was poor fuel not a design/analysis/verification/production problem. So, perhaps it just boils down to whether you believe UK fuel is consistently below standard or not then really? Sorry, I don't and therefore for me, the "cause" has to be elsewhere. However, each to his own. Good evidence will always make me change my mind and eat humble pie though

[CharlieFarlie]

One of the first points I picked up on,when I joined this forum,just over a year ago,was to use the quality fuel.Obviously good advice.

BJK

I will be doing the same from here on in....

But as above . I have run late model Transit vans to over 180.000 miles on Tesco Diesel without any problems at all !!! It seemed the harder they were driven the better they lasted !! All My vans were serviced on the dot though and were never allowed to run over either miles or time !!! But then maybe the design was better :rolleyes:

Wee Charlie.

[Big Kev]

It's amazing how this is starting to turn on its head....let me collaborate on that....

I got my car at 3000 miles,(now 21k) and at the behest of Anchorman and shcm, have only fed it with the top notch fuels...........

Affable Kevster, I'm far from an engine expert, but I don't think it's unreasonable to assume a top fuel is going to keep the engine cleaner, reducing wear and clogging and so helping to eek out its life a bit more. However, without a good techy explanation, I can't subscribe to the "crap UK fuel is the underlying cause" point of view, for what is essentially premature engine wear. Many (inc me) have run diesels producing engine oil blacker than a Hawking radiation source (and rightly or wrongly I'm assuming therefore more evil engine destroying combustion products), but without any oil usage, for far far longer.

I also find it difficult to believe that the majority of fuel on sale in the UK is below a standard that Toyota should have tested with. Perhaps it's something like the emission regulations and/or low sulphur diesel are asking to much to produce an engine to the required standard at a reasonable cost. That again though, is just wild speculation. I'd love to see the real data, but unfortuately, I expect I never will.

Are you ready for this???....return journey to That Manchester Airport....approx 600 miles....1 litre of oil used....GUBBERIT. Car just serviced at 20k the week before, and level checked. Never a drop used previously....

Hopefully just a coincidifier, eh....? Monitoring much more closely, and seems that it is MOTORWAY usage that burns the oil as Charlie suggests, as my usual pottering aboot Glesga has shown little or no oil usage.

Isn't there a school of thought (Is it in one of Mr T's handbooks? ), that says short journeys build up condensate in the oil, which gets evaporated off with a nice hot engine on a high speed run and therefore can give the appearance of rapid oil consumption, i.e. if you've done a lot of short stuff followed by a high speed run? Surely less than 600 miles to do that though!?

Now I'll worry you - I wonder what oil they put in? ;). I assume you've checked for leaks?

Cmon Mate Your the brainy one here !!Of course there is an underlying or design fault !! Thats why Toyota are picking up the tab for the engines...... The problem is exacerbated by the crap fuels We get ?????

To be fair Charlie, the first post says the dealer said the cause was poor fuel not a design/analysis/verification/production problem. So, perhaps it just boils down to whether you believe UK fuel is consistently below standard or not then really? Sorry, I don't and therefore for me, the "cause" has to be elsewhere. However, each to his own. Good evidence will always make me change my mind and eat humble pie though

Wasn't aware of that "condensate" theory, shcm, which makes much sense, but had only been serviced with "new" oil a few days prior to travelling Sowf, with not enough time to accumulate any short run condensate. Actually forgot to ASK what oil went in.....I will ask and report.

Not far from finally losing useless bloody gallbladder, which will hopefully facilitate my own oil changes hereafter.

Hopeful that some passing drunk English tourist may drop by in near future and show me how and where the fuel filter lives.

Big Kev

[shcm]

Wasn't aware of that "condensate" theory, shcm,

Yeah, well it's only what I remember. It could be complete ballcocks. :D.

Not far from finally losing useless bloody gallbladder,

Are you "booked in" now Kev? Hope so!

Hopeful that some passing drunk English tourist may drop by in near future and show me how and where the fuel filter lives.

Ah, I take it you mean:

"Nobody expected it, nobody believed it, and nobody could stop it. The one hope, the only hope: THE EXORCIST" ;).

[Big Kev]

Wasn't aware of that "condensate" theory, shcm,

Yeah, well it's only what I remember. It could be complete ballcocks. :D.

Not far from finally losing useless bloody gallbladder,

Are you "booked in" now Kev? Hope so!

Hopeful that some passing drunk English tourist may drop by in near future and show me how and where the fuel filter lives.

Ah, I take it you mean:

"Nobody expected it, nobody believed it, and nobody could stop it. The one hope, the only hope: THE EXORCIST" ;).

Yep....currently holding seances at Asda in order to make spirits appear....then disappear on arrival of Canon Cafe....

[Mistermena]

This is a very interesting thread about fuel qualities. So I'm going to have to put my Welsh 2p in...

I've only ever used Shell V-Power derv in my car since the rebuild (And befor the rebuild) and also used Millers diesel clean on fill ups. Plus BG244 at the recommended intervals. But as some might have read on another post that my car has had to date 2 new engines fitted with the mod pistons and the works. But (And I hope I'm very wrong!) there are fresh water markes on the engine cover (As it was with the 1st build) that could be a sign of the head gasket going again.

So if this is the case after only using the best fuel! Mobil 1 ESP engine oil! BG244 and Millers plus changing the fuel/oil filter every 4000 miles (Using gen Toyota parts) this could suggest that the quality of fuel is not to blame! Or there could be other reasons such as faulty gaskets ect. I dont know...

[CharlieFarlie]

This is a very interesting thread about fuel qualities. So I'm going to have to put my Welsh 2p in...

I've only ever used Shell V-Power derv in my car since the rebuild (And befor the rebuild) and also used Millers diesel clean on fill ups. Plus BG244 at the recommended intervals. But as some might have read on another post that my car has had to date 2 new engines fitted with the mod pistons and the works. But (And I hope I'm very wrong!) there are fresh water markes on the engine cover (As it was with the 1st build) that could be a sign of the head gasket going again.

So if this is the case after only using the best fuel! Mobil 1 ESP engine oil! BG244 and Millers plus changing the fuel/oil filter every 4000 miles (Using gen Toyota parts) this could suggest that the quality of fuel is not to blame! Or there could be other reasons such as faulty gaskets ect. I dont know...

Mate when You say new engines do You mean full engine replacements or rebuilds ???

[Mistermena]

This is a very interesting thread about fuel qualities. So I'm going to have to put my Welsh 2p in...

I've only ever used Shell V-Power derv in my car since the rebuild (And befor the rebuild) and also used Millers diesel clean on fill ups. Plus BG244 at the recommended intervals. But as some might have read on another post that my car has had to date 2 new engines fitted with the mod pistons and the works. But (And I hope I'm very wrong!) there are fresh water markes on the engine cover (As it was with the 1st build) that could be a sign of the head gasket going again.

So if this is the case after only using the best fuel! Mobil 1 ESP engine oil! BG244 and Millers plus changing the fuel/oil filter every 4000 miles (Using gen Toyota parts) this could suggest that the quality of fuel is not to blame! Or there could be other reasons such as faulty gaskets ect. I dont know...

Mate when You say new engines do You mean full engine replacements or rebuilds ???

£6500 rebuild at main dealer. Not one like you'll be getting shipped from the engine plant. But Ormi has said that its the same engine as you'd be getting, but it saves on the cost of labour charges to Toyota by main dealer as metioned.

[CharlieFarlie]

Blimey I'm getting disheartened with all this doom and gloom that surrounds this car !! I have been very lucky and have never had to have a new engine before.... I think the way forward for Me is just to get the engine swapped and buy another car.. I do greatly appreciate them changing the engine but in reality this should never have needed doing in the first place !!! I cant be ubikd with all this messing about and worrying about what goes bang next ...

At least You Guys have saved Me the £300 for the new clutch as They can just fit the old one there is nout wrong with it anyway I was just going to get a new one fitted while the labour is free as its a 12 hour job on a completely assembled car .....

I was going to but a Honda CRV or a Ford Kuga but went Toyota because of the legendary reliability MMMMmmmm Yeh Right...

A very ubiked off

Wee Charlie.

[Mistermena]

As I've said befor. My issues with my engine could be something or nothing. I'll let the dealer do there pressure test ect and report back as to there findings. But I can understand how you feel Charlie as I feel the same way about my car in many ways...

I've had 26 Learners cars now and never had any major problems with any of them. Used different brands of fuel from Tesco's to Morrisons to Shell. My Polo TDi has almost 200k on the clock of hard miles! and thats still on the same clutch/Turbo/Gearbox and still pulls like a train.

There was a post on here yesterday (If I remeber correctly) about the Honda accord 2.2 diesels that even after having a service two engine used all the oil and siezed the engines up. By brother-in-law has a CRV with the same engine and never looks after it at all and he's never had a problem. Just the luck of the draw I guess...

[anchorman]

A couple of things to add.

As shcm has indicated, the fuel is not the cause of this problem, it is down to more fundamental weaknesses in the design. The fuel does exacerbate the condition by contributing to excessive carbon build ups that's when the problems start. The other catalyst is oil consumption but you might get away with that were it not for the fuel/carbon thing.

Kev - you might be shooting yourself in the foot by using high grade fuel but I think you should report your observations with the oil to your dealer.

Charlie - don't be disheartened. Toyota stopped reworking engines and started using 3/4 engines which make more economic sense. You will end up with a cracking motor and an engine with all the latest spec parts - you cannot go wrong.

[anchorman]

A couple of things to add.

As shcm has indicated, the fuel is not the cause of this problem, it is down to more fundamental weaknesses in the design. The fuel does exacerbate the condition by contributing to excessive carbon build ups that's when the problems start. The other catalyst is oil consumption but you might get away with that were it not for the fuel/carbon thing.

Kev - you might be shooting yourself in the foot by using high grade fuel but I think you should report your observations with the oil to your dealer.

Charlie - don't be disheartened. Toyota stopped reworking engines and started using 3/4 engines which make more economic sense. You will end up with a cracking motor and an engine with all the latest spec parts - you cannot go wrong.

[Daveyonthemove]

Can't argue with the above statement.

In theory, it goes to show that Toyota are not taking any chances with the rebuilds. They are doing it at factory level and using the latest parts they have in stock, so this removes the risk of parts being damaged in transit, old parts being lifted off a dusty shelf somewhere, and something being overlooked by a trainee technician (I'm not saying all of that does or has happened, but it has removed the risks).

Also Toyota are probably going to get the old engine back in one piece, so there is a good chance that they can check it over at their end and get to the bottom of the fault.

I can understand your worry about the problem re-occurring, I think most people would feel the same, but most other car owners wouldn't get a new engine outside of the 3 year/60k warranty for nothing.

[Manxrav]

Charlie, as I have posted in the Rav4 thread that Dave M frequently uses, the Honda CRV has a very serious problem with the gearbox on it. Google in CRV forums and just check the amount of posts that are raising issues with the drivability of the gearbox especially from 1st to 2nd gearing. Granted this is probably mainly on the 2007 to2009 models before the facelift. From what i read Honda still have not got a fix for it!!!!

Can,t say whether the facelift model got it sorted. Ford Kuga- can,t say alot about that as I have never owned a Ford in my life and probably never will, all though it does get very good reviews, but it is still a Ford.

Like most have said on this engine issue you will be getting a better spec engine with hopefully all the trials nd tribulations sorted for you.

Regards Clare

[CharlieFarlie]

I now have a date of the 10th of August for the engine change. Once done I will be parting with the car and going back to a Ford...... I have had loads of Fords right back to Capris And RS turbos Sierra Cosworths ect ect And more latterly over 30 Transits vans and the latest shape TitaniumX Mondeo. The most I have had on these cars is EGR valves !!!!

Again I cannot fault the way Toyota have dealt with this issue and I hope all those affected will get the same outstanding service !!

For Me I think its better the devil You know.. So back to Ford .... I will get a high end Titanium X model with the sunroof that I cant get with a new Rav. And an Auto box will help the Wife as well..

Wee Charlie.

[wardude]

Theres nowt wrong with Fords mate. My late Father had 15 Cortinas, 5 Sierras and a Mondeo when he was repping and did 1.5 Million Miles and was never let down. I have had XR2s, XR4s and even 2 1967 Mustang Fastbacks. oh and a 1942 GPW jeep. Loved every one of them and again they never let me down.

[El Bee]

If it was just a fuel problem I would expect every engine manufacturer to be having the same problems - they're not, so I would conclude it's a design fault and I think that's why Toyota are picking up the tab!

We get 2 grades of diesel here "regular" (read tractor/aincient Pegaso truck) and "premium" (for modern stuff) loads of peeps run their modern TDi's on the cheap stuff, well, coz it's cheap, and apart from a bit extra smoke, maybe less mpg the don't seem to have problems.

Going back a few years I worked for BP Tanker Co and it was common knowledge (from the refinery workers) that BP only used the top of the tanks in the tank farm leaving 1 metre ullage in the bottom of the tank, that's thousands of gallons, it was all pumped into one tank and that is where the "second line" fuel sellers collected it in their own brand road tankers, things might have changed, or not...

Lee

[CharlieFarlie]

Mate PLEASE READ THE THREAD ?? Several times it has been said that it is a design fault exacerbated by the crap fuel ??? Of couse its not just the fuel ...........................

Charlie.

[El Bee]

Mate PLEASE READ THE THREAD ?? Several times it has been said that it is a design fault exacerbated by the crap fuel ??? Of couse its not just the fuel ...........................

Charlie.

I did read the thread Charlie and if you read my post you would see I think it's NOTHING to do with crap fuel, you can run a well designed diesel engine on just about any old fuel.

Kev's comment about his dropping engine oil level was interesting though, and I certainly can't see their being a litre of water in his engine oil unless summat's badly borken!

Yours in international misunderstanding

Lee

[CharlieFarlie]

Quote

If it was just a fuel problem I would expect every engine manufacturer to be having the same problems - they're not, so I would conclude it's a design fault and I think that's why Toyota are picking up the tab!

This has been said many times Mate.... I've said it I don't know how many times on here and the other thread . I just thought You hadn't seen it Mate that's all

Wee Charlie.

[anchorman]

Charlie

Why not just live with it for a while. I'm not aware that Ford break any records for reliability - quite the opposite and they certainly won't look after you like Toyota have.

Its up to you but don't shoot yourself in the foot buddy.