Runflat Tyres. A Point Worth Considering

[Big Kev]

......to have to remove the TPMS sensor/valves as they apparently don't work with the runflat system removed, as they work on air volume which seems ridiculas for a 'Pressure' monitoring system....

It's smelly, sometimes brown, comes out of male bovines and the dealer would appear to have an excess of it.

Just beat The Censor there, shcm, and further agree I could not. My two alloys (warranty) and 5 NORMAL RUBBERY RINGS are on order and fitting is imminent. I have opted for Yokohama tyres in order to steer clear of anything Bridgestone for the rest of my days.....they have well hacked me off. Stand by yer 'puter (you too Shaunster) for instructions on pink wire cutting...!!!!

Big Kev

[wardude]

If i can do it, anyone can Kevster. I still have the photos that a kind forum member sent me when I did mine. Happy to forward them on to anyone that wants them

[Roadwrangler]

Following on from my last post, I spoke with the Toyota Service guy again, he is convinced the alloys are normal alloys, he also asked his main tyre fitter who also says they are normail alloys and perfectly safe to fit a set of tyres with the runflat system removed, and they have done a few over the years.

To buy a single T180 bare alloy new to use as a spare, £350 + vat (trade) and supply and fit 5 budget tyres £100 a corner + vat (inc them removing the runflat system) £850 + vat = £1020. 4 after market 18" alloys with tyres off eBay or the internet from around £720..

Think I'll be buying the 4 new alloys with tyres, use the best of the existing ones as a spare, strip the other 3 originals so I can see for my self what's going on in there, then when winter hits, get a set of M+S fitted to the originals if I'm happy its safe to do so. I can always carry one of the new ones as a spare for the winter wheels and one of the winters as a spare for the new wheels. The old sticky string puncture kit is always in the back anyway just in case..

Regards Austin..

[Roadwrangler]

......to have to remove the TPMS sensor/valves as they apparently don't work with the runflat system removed, as they work on air volume which seems ridiculas for a 'Pressure' monitoring system....

It's smelly, sometimes brown, comes out of male bovines and the dealer would appear to have an excess of it.

Hi Mate,

So the TPMS definately still works with the Doughnuts removed? I would like to retain that part of it my self. Thought I read a few posts where people commented on their TPMS light being on after changing tyres, which I assumed backed the Toyota Service guys statment.

Regards Austin..

[Roadwrangler]

As a few on here know, I replaced mine with new alloys and tyres. I did tell my insurance company that I had replaced my original alloys with third party alloys. I think the insurance company I was with at the time charged me extra, as it was classed as a modification!! I think my current insurance company (LV) is Ok with it, as long as they were the same size as the originals, which they are. The only problem is that I've had my tpms light flashing at me for the best part of 2 years now. I have seen that you can disable the light by cutting a certain wire, but I daren't do it!! On another note, I was told that my local Toyota dealer have now got rid of their RFT machines, as they reckon it was costing them money to change the tyres!!

It costs them money as if they don't get it right and damage the doughnut thing, they have to replace them @£127 each for the doughnut, just damaging one costs them any profit.

You wheels look pretty good, do you mind if I ask where you got them and how much?

Regards Austin..

[wardude]

YES the Tpms still works without the run flat donuts in place and it still works without the Bridgstone run flat tyre on too.

[CharlieFarlie]

As a few on here know, I replaced mine with new alloys and tyres. I did tell my insurance company that I had replaced my original alloys with third party alloys. I think the insurance company I was with at the time charged me extra, as it was classed as a modification!! I think my current insurance company (LV) is Ok with it, as long as they were the same size as the originals, which they are. The only problem is that I've had my tpms light flashing at me for the best part of 2 years now. I have seen that you can disable the light by cutting a certain wire, but I daren't do it!! On another note, I was told that my local Toyota dealer have now got rid of their RFT machines, as they reckon it was costing them money to change the tyres!!

It costs them money as if they don't get it right and damage the doughnut thing, they have to replace them @£127 each for the doughnut, just damaging one costs them any profit.

You wheels look pretty good, do you mind if I ask where you got them and how much?

Regards Austin..

None of the Dealers or tyre Fitters that I have spoken to will assume any responsabilty whatsoever for damage caused to either the Runflat system or the TPMS. So if one gets damaged the cost will fall on the cars Owner IE Us !! So in fact it may increase the profitability of the whole job .......

Wee Charlie.

[wardude]

Also remember that the tyre valve if damaged is a good £140 to replace. One of mine was a bit corroded and I had a right job pumping air into it but there was no way i ws gonna pay that for a valve. Each to their own but I cant see any point at all in keeping this RFTS in place as its just so expensive to maintain. Good idea if anyone could change them and had stock of them and the machinery but that aint the situation

Normal car with tyres (or modified RAV)

Tyre £100

fitting and new valves £10 each

RAV WITH TPMS system

Tyre £150 plus silly fitting cost

Donut which will be damaged by running on a flat OR maybe by removing tyre £100ish

New valve if damaged £140

Plus all the hassle of trying to get this done locally

[firemac]

Also remember that the tyre valve if damaged is a good £140 to replace. One of mine was a bit corroded and I had a right job pumping air into it but there was no way i ws gonna pay that for a valve. Each to their own but I cant see any point at all in keeping this RFTS in place as its just so expensive to maintain. Good idea if anyone could change them and had stock of them and the machinery but that aint the situation

Normal car with tyres (or modified RAV)

Tyre £100

fitting and new valves £10 each

RAV WITH TPMS system

Tyre £150 plus silly fitting cost

Donut which will be damaged by running on a flat OR maybe by removing tyre £100ish

New valve if damaged £140

Plus all the hassle of trying to get this done locally

Apologies in advance if this is a stupid question but how come Mt. T's managed to get this RFT situation so wrong? I used to run a BMW 5-series with RF's & TPM and never had any trouble of any kind with them. BMW has knocked out what must be thousands of cars with these systems and apart from whinges about ride comfort, they don't seem to have any underlying issues with owners. Certainly not like what I've seen on here.

[wardude]

Does the BMW not have actual run flat tyres without the donut?? As for Toyota and the RFT, dont know. Maybe they thought it was a good idea at the time which saved weight and maybe increased fuel economy. Why they couldnt just strap a spare wheel to the back OR just pop tyre weld in the boot is anyones guess. Some smart ***** pen pusher made figures look good on paper and some numpty higher up the tree gave it the go ahead. Im just glad im out the whole situation now and have normal tyres etc etc. Makes life so much easier and cheaper

[sywy]

You wheels look pretty good, do you mind if I ask where you got them and how much?

I got them from Jeff Fowkes, in Ibstock, Leicestershire - http://www.fowkesauto.com/

Can't remember the exact price, but it was around £800 (just under, I think) for 4 alloys and 4 Yokohama tyres.

[CharlieFarlie]

Also remember that the tyre valve if damaged is a good £140 to replace. One of mine was a bit corroded and I had a right job pumping air into it but there was no way i ws gonna pay that for a valve. Each to their own but I cant see any point at all in keeping this RFTS in place as its just so expensive to maintain. Good idea if anyone could change them and had stock of them and the machinery but that aint the situation

Normal car with tyres (or modified RAV)

Tyre £100

fitting and new valves £10 each

RAV WITH TPMS system

Tyre £150 plus silly fitting cost

Donut which will be damaged by running on a flat OR maybe by removing tyre £100ish

New valve if damaged £140

Plus all the hassle of trying to get this done locally

Apologies in advance if this is a stupid question but how come Mt. T's managed to get this RFT situation so wrong? I used to run a BMW 5-series with RF's & TPM and never had any trouble of any kind with them. BMW has knocked out what must be thousands of cars with these systems and apart from whinges about ride comfort, they don't seem to have any underlying issues with owners. Certainly not like what I've seen on here.

But its the whinges about ride comfort that have plagued BMW and the like since they started fitting the awful runflats !!!

BMW and all use extremely hevily constructed tyre walls which have almost no give or flex in them. If a puncture occurs the car rides on the side walls of the tyre.

Toyota are as far as I know alone in using the Ring system. If the tyre suffers a puncture the car runs on the rings Not the side walls. This makes for a far far better car to use on a day to day basis as most of the BMWs on runflats are truly flaming dreadful !!!

Many BMW owners also ditch the runflats in favour of ordinary tyres !! In fact more so as They are driven mad by the very uncompromising ride of Their cars !!....

I will wait until A, I suffer a puncture Or B, the tyres on My T180 wear out a little. I simply don't want to cut off four almost new tyres and refuse to pay 218 quid to have them taken off. If I were a BMW Owner I would be having to ditch tyres whether new or old as the ride on those tyres would drive Me insane

I have in the past owned 3 BMWs . Only one came on run flats.. Big mistake... Never again ...

Wee Charlie.

[firemac]

Also remember that the tyre valve if damaged is a good £140 to replace. One of mine was a bit corroded and I had a right job pumping air into it but there was no way i ws gonna pay that for a valve. Each to their own but I cant see any point at all in keeping this RFTS in place as its just so expensive to maintain. Good idea if anyone could change them and had stock of them and the machinery but that aint the situation

Normal car with tyres (or modified RAV)

Tyre £100

fitting and new valves £10 each

RAV WITH TPMS system

Tyre £150 plus silly fitting cost

Donut which will be damaged by running on a flat OR maybe by removing tyre £100ish

New valve if damaged £140

Plus all the hassle of trying to get this done locally

Apologies in advance if this is a stupid question but how come Mt. T's managed to get this RFT situation so wrong? I used to run a BMW 5-series with RF's & TPM and never had any trouble of any kind with them. BMW has knocked out what must be thousands of cars with these systems and apart from whinges about ride comfort, they don't seem to have any underlying issues with owners. Certainly not like what I've seen on here.

But its the whinges about ride comfort that have plagued BMW and the like since they started fitting the awful runflats !!!

BMW and all use extremely hevily constructed tyre walls which have almost no give or flex in them. If a puncture occurs the car rides on the side walls of the tyre.

Toyota are as far as I know alone in using the Ring system. If the tyre suffers a puncture the car runs on the rings Not the side walls. This makes for a far far better car to use on a day to day basis as most of the BMWs on runflats are truly flaming dreadful !!!

Many BMW owners also ditch the runflats in favour of ordinary tyres !! In fact more so as They are driven mad by the very uncompromising ride of Their cars !!....

I will wait until A, I suffer a puncture Or B, the tyres on My T180 wear out a little. I simply don't want to cut off four almost new tyres and refuse to pay 218 quid to have them taken off. If I were a BMW Owner I would be having to ditch tyres whether new or old as the ride on those tyres would drive Me insane

I have in the past owned 3 BMWs . Only one came on run flats.. Big mistake... Never again ...

Wee Charlie.

Thanks for that Small Charles, sir. Now I understand it a little bit better: it's the donut that is the defining difference.

I have to say however that I loved my BMW and never found the ride unacceptable despite having back problems that, in the past have forced me to take steps to modify or replace the driver's seat on other cars. In fact I specifically went for the M-Sport version for its handling so maybe that disguised the RFT issue a bit. I appreciate that some folk just don't get on with the RFT's on their BM's but I'd have another tomorrow (if I wasn't over-run with !Removed! Toyotas at the moment!).

ATB, Firemac

[MarsKy]

Apologies in advance if this is a stupid question but how come Mt. T's managed to get this RFT situation so wrong? I used to run a BMW 5-series with RF's & TPM and never had any trouble of any kind with them. BMW has knocked out what must be thousands of cars with these systems and apart from whinges about ride comfort, they don't seem to have any underlying issues with owners. Certainly not like what I've seen on here.

Sold my T180 a few months ago and bought a 2010 BMW 520d Touring M Sport, with run-flats and monitoring system.

The RAV doesn't have run-flat tyres, it has the support ring. The BMW has run-flats. Even with very low profile run-flats and M Sport stiffened suspension, the ride is still more comfortable than the T180. As I said in another post, there is a newer generation of run-flats which are more comfortable now.

The BMW does not have a tyre pressure monitoring system. It has sensors on the wheel hub, and basically compares the rotation of the four tyres. A puncture will cause a wheel to rotate differently and the BMW's system does its analyses and it alerts you to a problem. So everytime you inflate your tyres, you need to reset the system (30 second job though).

It was a long discussion with the dealer and they had to prove to me that the BMW didn't have a similar system to the T180. If it had, I was walking away.

And if you don't want to Shell out for run-flats then ordinary tyres are okay.

The BMW does have a tyre well under the boot for a space saver (optional extra). But bizarrely the space saver does not fit in the well. When you order the space saver, you also order a bit of carpeting with a larger tyre well which the space saver then fits into. Lots of half-ar*ed measures with the beemer, but they get the important bits right.

[firemac]

Apologies in advance if this is a stupid question but how come Mt. T's managed to get this RFT situation so wrong? I used to run a BMW 5-series with RF's & TPM and never had any trouble of any kind with them. BMW has knocked out what must be thousands of cars with these systems and apart from whinges about ride comfort, they don't seem to have any underlying issues with owners. Certainly not like what I've seen on here.

Sold my T180 a few months ago and bought a 2010 BMW 520d Touring M Sport, with run-flats and monitoring system.

The RAV doesn't have run-flat tyres, it has the support ring. The BMW has run-flats. Even with very low profile run-flats and M Sport stiffened suspension, the ride is still more comfortable than the T180. As I said in another post, there is a newer generation of run-flats which are more comfortable now.

The BMW does not have a tyre pressure monitoring system. It has sensors on the wheel hub, and basically compares the rotation of the four tyres. A puncture will cause a wheel to rotate differently and the BMW's system does its analyses and it alerts you to a problem. So everytime you inflate your tyres, you need to reset the system (30 second job though).

It was a long discussion with the dealer and they had to prove to me that the BMW didn't have a similar system to the T180. If it had, I was walking away.

And if you don't want to Shell out for run-flats then ordinary tyres are okay.

The BMW does have a tyre well under the boot for a space saver (optional extra). But bizarrely the space saver does not fit in the well. When you order the space saver, you also order a bit of carpeting with a larger tyre well which the space saver then fits into. Lots of half-ar*ed measures with the beemer, but they get the important bits right.

That's exactly the model I had. Loved it but it had to go when I left the company (boo hoo...). One of the best driving cars around.

[Offroadster]

I debated for about a month as I needed new wheels, rear wheels badly corroded causing tyres to loose pressure over a week or two, fronts started to blister. I looked at various wheels but for me I didnt want the T180 to look "pimped". So in the end I decided to change them like for like. Refurbished wheels and two new front tyres came to just under a £1000,00. I could have left the the rings out and went for different tyres etc, but I dont plan to keep the T180 anymore, (changing within 6 months if finances allow). I went round various dealers and the trade in price was quite different with standard wheels and "custom" wheels. The mainstreram dealers, the ones I spoke to anyway prefer their cars to have standard fit. I cant fault my my local Mr T as the service is excellent. 4 wheels removed and fitted, no damage to wheels, valve or rings. Its not the price of the tyre because performance tyres cost the same, its the inconvienience more than anything that puts people off.

[MarsKy]

I debated for about a month as I needed new wheels, rear wheels badly corroded causing tyres to loose pressure over a week or two, fronts started to blister. I looked at various wheels but for me I didnt want the T180 to look "pimped". So in the end I decided to change them like for like. Refurbished wheels and two new front tyres came to just under a £1000,00. I could have left the the rings out and went for different tyres etc, but I dont plan to keep the T180 anymore, (changing within 6 months if finances allow). I went round various dealers and the trade in price was quite different with standard wheels and "custom" wheels. The mainstreram dealers, the ones I spoke to anyway prefer their cars to have standard fit. I cant fault my my local Mr T as the service is excellent. 4 wheels removed and fitted, no damage to wheels, valve or rings. Its not the price of the tyre because performance tyres cost the same, its the inconvienience more than anything that puts people off.

Yes - I sold my T180 privately (AutoTrader on-line, sold in less than 24 hours!)

But I had went round dealers (non-Toyota) looking to trade-in, and their first two questions were "is everything OEM and otherwise unmodified?" and then "what condition are the tyres and wheels?"

They seem to already know about the issues and costs with the run-flats, TPMS, etc.

[Manxrav]

The ride on my Cooper S which has run-flats is not a patch on the Urbancruiser. The BMW X3 that I had was non run-flat, SE version and was a good ride,as was the 1 series BMW non M sport. The one thing that most of my friends who run Beemers say is stay away from the M Sport model as it is too harsh a ride. The T180 I had was a quality ride even on UK roads,( our roads on the IOM dare I say it are well looked after).

Regards Clare

[firemac]

The ride on my Cooper S which has run-flats is not a patch on the Urbancruiser. The BMW X3 that I had was non run-flat, SE version and was a good ride,as was the 1 series BMW non M sport. The one thing that most of my friends who run Beemers say is stay away from the M Sport model as it is too harsh a ride. The T180 I had was a quality ride even on UK roads,( our roads on the IOM dare I say it are well looked after).

Regards Clare

Judging by the number of M-Sports that BMW shift I'd say their fans out-number the ones that can't get on with them.

[CharlieFarlie]

The ride on my Cooper S which has run-flats is not a patch on the Urbancruiser. The BMW X3 that I had was non run-flat, SE version and was a good ride,as was the 1 series BMW non M sport. The one thing that most of my friends who run Beemers say is stay away from the M Sport model as it is too harsh a ride. The T180 I had was a quality ride even on UK roads,( our roads on the IOM dare I say it are well looked after).

Regards Clare

Clare. My Wife had a Mini Cooper S when they first came out in 2002. The ride was just woefull !! Probably the worst ride in ant car We have ever owned !

As for BMWs with Run Flats .... Well they are horrible ! I know of many Owners on the various BMW forums that have taken them off and put normal tyres on in their place.. I suppose it depends largely on what cars the Owners have had before as to whether they are happy with them !

A family member has a 58 plate M sport 5 series that does not have run flats...

The point that Dealers will be wary of T180s or other Ravs with the tyres changed for normal ones is a Very good point indeed.

This takes Us back to the original point made at the start of this thread.... There are clear and positive Insurance issues when making the change !! ........................ :angry:

Wee Charlie.

[Big Kev]

Knowing what I now know, it would be a very positive selling point to me if I was buying another Rav that the runflats and system had been removed from, as long as it was for normal tyres and not the Bridgestone Runflat Tyres without the BSR fitted.

I am hopeful that Mr.T will be fitting my two warranty alloys and 5 new normal tyres next week...I opted for Yokohama Advan V802's in the end, having read a review that they were quiet on the roadnoise front, only to subsequently read that was a lot of pants by another reviewer...ho-hum...we'll soon find out. Can't fault the Bridgestone's on noise front, but you are all aware of my gripe with said brand by now....even banned their golf balls from my kit....!!!!

Will do a Kev Review after been on for a while.

Big Kev

[shcm]

Hi Mate

So the TPMS definately still works with the Doughnuts removed? I would like to retain that part of it my self. Thought I read a few posts where people commented on their TPMS light being on after changing tyres, which I assumed backed the Toyota Service guys statment.

Yeah, well I'm just repeating what Wardude has already confirmed. They work off pressure not volume (how would you do that???). They are a pressure transducer, temperature sensor, possibly radial accelerometer and low power TX.

I know of proving programs where TPMS valves have been put through testing with all kinds of different rims. Low power UHF transmission/reception can be temperamental at times, so there will always be cases where they won't work reliably, but I'd say 95% of the time they would work with a wheel setup change.

Going off topic slightly:

The EU are having a bit of a safety "drive" within the industry. They want to half the fatalities on Europe's roads. Debatable how much TPMS will help, but off the top of my head, I think it is 2014, when all new models (not new cars) will have to have TPMS (not runflats). So, best get used to it.

So, if it is a valve based transmitter system and manufacturers continue to move away from spare wheels and repair gunk has the potential to kill TPMS valves, will I have to call out a rescue service every time I get a non-slow puncture or Shell out for a new valve? How do they get on in the US? Do the majority still have a spare?

Having said that, I been told of TPMS valves that have been put through tests with "gunk" and have survived, but my "expert witness" remained to be convinced of the test's validity. However, the instructions from the repair manual for Toyota's system currently on the RAV is not to use gunk with TPMS - for good reason.

I quite like the idea of TPMS. I wouldn't mind having it. I'd prefer a pressure readout, rather than just a warning, but I suspect that won't happen much. Mainly because unless the normal changes in pressure are compensated for on the display, I suspect your average motorist (most of you on here are not "average" motorists), would get confused/concerned and resulting complaints would ultimately be more trouble than it is worth for the car maker. This kind of approach is very often taken.

I'd like some kind of spare wheel back too!

[CharlieFarlie]

Knowing what I now know, it would be a very positive selling point to me if I was buying another Rav that the runflats and system had been removed, as long as it was for normal tyres and not the Bridgestone Runflat Tyres without the BSR fitted.

I am hopeful that Mr.T will be fitting my two warranty alloys and 5 new normal tyres next week...I opted for Yokohama Advan V802's in the end, having read a review that they were quiet on the roadnoise front, only to subsequently read that was a lot of pants by another reviewer...ho-hum...we'll soon find out. Can't fault the Bridgestone's on noise front, but you are all aware of my gripe with said brand by now....even banned their golf balls from my kit....!!!!

Will do a Kev Review after been on for a while.

Big Kev

While I have to agree. From a Dealers poit ov view the car should have both the designated tyres And the BSR kit in place as per tye vehicles original specification. I would also assume that the handbook will also poit out that this kit and tyres are or should be fitted..

Now I would think that no matter how many warnings a selling dealer was to give to a Buyer of a car that has been converted from the normal standard specification. The owness maight come back to Him if problems were to arise...

In other words ... Dealer sells car to Buyer with Major warnings in place.. Buyer crashes car and denies warnings !!

OK a little dramatic. But this is the world We live in ! Blame someone else !!

The best plan really is buy a good set of rims and tyres and use those. Then put the originals back on come sale time !

Anyone got a set to sell ????????????????????????????????????????????????

Wee Charlie.

[Roadwrangler]

Apologies in advance if this is a stupid question but how come Mt. T's managed to get this RFT situation so wrong? I used to run a BMW 5-series with RF's & TPM and never had any trouble of any kind with them. BMW has knocked out what must be thousands of cars with these systems and apart from whinges about ride comfort, they don't seem to have any underlying issues with owners. Certainly not like what I've seen on here.

I think there is a few considerations here, BMW's reasoning perhaps, how many BMW drivers are likely to get out and change their own flat tyre and ringing a breakdown service adds delays and inconvenience to their journey, fitting a run flat makes life simpler. German cars most likely to come fitted with a German tyre and they opted for the reinforced side wall type runflats. Where I work we have some BMW 'service cars' with RunFlats on, I think they state you can drive for 150 miles not exceeding 50mph, I don't know how many punctures the guys have had, but on 3 occasions the tyres have shredded and come off the rims!

Japanese built cars (by that I mean made in Japan) tend to fit a Jap tyre like Bridgestone (Chances are a Turkish built Corrola Verso has a European made tyre) The Mitsubishi Pajero I used to have came with Bridgstone Dueller A/T's which were a fantastic tyre and that particular pattern is only available in Japan! My T180 is a "made in Japan" Toyota (and I'd never buy a non Japanese built Jap car) When Toyota thought of joining the RunFlat club, the only one available was this Bridgstone system and it was only ever fitted to 2 cars I believe, the T180 Rav4 and one model of Lexus, as no other manufacturers adopted the system and at first Bridgstone refused to let any of the independent tyre shops (inc its own Partners) have the machine, costs stayed high and availability more or less at selected dealerships only.

Another consideration where the Rav4 is concerned, having a spare on the tailgate means the door opening is restricted which stems from the American market, something to do with the spare tyre not sticking out beyond the side of the car when the tailgate is open, which Toyota kept for the European market. On the T180 and other late model Rav's with no spare the tailgate opens fully allowing far better access to the 'cargo' area if your transporting something big in the back.

Regards Austin..

[Roadwrangler]

The ride on my Cooper S which has run-flats is not a patch on the Urbancruiser. The BMW X3 that I had was non run-flat, SE version and was a good ride,as was the 1 series BMW non M sport. The one thing that most of my friends who run Beemers say is stay away from the M Sport model as it is too harsh a ride. The T180 I had was a quality ride even on UK roads,( our roads on the IOM dare I say it are well looked after).

Regards Clare

Hi Clare,

Your Cooper S being German and made by BMW has the reinforced side wall type runflats. My local tyre place have an ex Mini Cooper tyre they show customers, some guy brought his car in for a punture repair, he'd not been checkign his tyres and had worn the tyre down that much that the inside edge of the tyre was that thin it was about the thickness of a baloon! there was a 8" split in it and he'd been driving it around for months, he actually needed 4 new tyres. I would guess that any of the M sport BMW's will also have stiffer suspension contributing to the ride, comes with the M Badge.

Regards Austin..