Poor Brakes - Accident - Recall - Where Do I Stand?

[maximjc]

Hi, new here: I'm trying to find some independent advice and this owner's club site seemed a perfect place to start. Opinions much appreciated.

Without too much background detail - I've got a '59 IQ2 that I've had from new (Dec-09), just coming up to 30,000 miles. Had 10k and 20k services; 10k at Toyota, 20k at VAT registered non-Toyota garage. Didn't have brake fluid changed as service schedule says 2 years, and I thought I'd make it to 30,000 miles before 2 years, so I'd get it done then. Still got original pads fitted.

My partner doesn't drive if often, but whenever she does she complains about how poor the brakes are. As I do about 300-400 miles a week in it and am used to the brakes I usually say "they're not bad, just not as powerful as your brand new Golf GTi brakes".

13th August she had an accident; went into the back of someone under braking. She blamed the poor brakes. My IQ has been getting repaired for the last two weeks and I've had a courtesy car (1.4 Corsa). On Saturday just gone I received the Brake Master Cylinder & Tubes Recall letter. Last night I picked up my (fully repaired) IQ. on the drive home I couldn't believe how poor the brakes felt in comparison to the Corsa I'd been driving for the last 800 or so miles. I'd say the stopping distance in the IQ is about 150% of the Corsa.

So my question is: should I try and pursue the theory that the poor IQ brakes are down to a manufacturing or design fault and that they are the cause of the accident?

I can't see Toyota accepting responsibility unless I get at least one independent assessment of the vehicle. On the one hand I feel I must pursue Toyota, but on the other I can envisage a lot of time, effort, and maybe even financial outlay without any tangible benefit.

[Jan&tone]

Welcome to TOC. Sorry to hear of your accident, however under normal circumstances if you run into the back of another vehicle, then you are at fault. It is your responsibility to leave enough space between your vehicle and the one in front of you to enable you to stop under any circumstances.

You say that you had 'got used to' the 'soft' brakes and didn't really notice that until after the car was returned after the repair and you had been driving another vehicle.

You and your wife both therefore knew that perhaps a greater stopping distance would be required.

I'm sorry, but unless you can prove that the brakes failed due to the pending recall frankly I don't think that you have a case.

Good luck if you do decide to pursue it though

[Parts-King]

I can't see Toyota accepting responsibility unless I get at least one independent assessment of the vehicle. On the one hand I feel I must pursue Toyota, but on the other I can envisage a lot of time, effort, and maybe even financial outlay without any tangible benefit.

Sorry to hear you have had an accident

If you feel the brakes were at fault then you must be prepared have your vehicle independantly inspected, and yes that will be a hassle. I would doubt very much that the brakes would be so faulty that they would not stop you. Even with the ABS working, you often FEEL like you need to apply more brake, but that is the EBD and ABS doing its job. I have often heard this very same story and sorry if you feel I am getting at you, I'm not, but people often drive too fast, too close, take corners quicker than they should and end up crashing the car, in almost all cases, it is driver error, very very rarely does a car go so wrong you crash it!

If you feel you must take it further, your insurance company may well be able to help and have it independantly checked

Kingo

[s44gtw]

Sorry to hear of the accident.

I agree with both the above posts.

Let your insurance company assist in getting an independent inspection done,

that will be more of a problem if you did not give the above information when you reported the incident & now that the vehicles repairs have been done.

You really needed to give all relevant info at the time.

You could save expense & time & find out if the brakes are satisfactory right now/tomorrow for just the price of a MOT.

Just book it in for a full MOT, not at a Toyota Garage.

(which would not neccessarily bring forward the MOT date as of this first one.)

You dont even need to tell the tester of your concerns, just say you bought the vehicle & you would prefer that you know that it is safe & you wish to have a test carried out.

(i would however be straight with them & say you are concerned that the brakes do not meet a safe standard of performance)

go to a MOT test station & see if they are prepared to just do the 'Brake Test' for you on their equipment without doing a full MOT.

This result if it showed the brakes to not be up to their required performance should not then effect haveing an independent report done if nobody touches them other than doing the test to see that they meet the minimum MOT requirements.

If the brakes do not meet the required standard on the rolling road/brake tester you will know & have the test results. (braking within the acceptable perameters)

george

[maximjc]

Thanks very much for your quick posts.

As much as I don't like to say it, I think I do not have the time or inclination to pursue the matter. However I feel that people should try and make large companies accountable, otherwise they would get away with even more than they do already. I also realise that my case is fairly weak. I like the idea of an MoT test, thanks george.

I need to give it some thought, but I also need to get my car booked in for recall and service.

One other point - the service schedule states brake fluid change at 2 years. If I get the 30k service and the recall work done at the same time in the next week or so I should be able to get Toyota to confirm brake fluid change as part of the service record. Anyone else mange to do this? Surely Toyota wouldn't try and charge me for a 2 year brake fluid change if they have changed the master cylinder and brake lines as part of the recall. Would they?

[stormuk]

I would advise against going down the investigation route, I had the issue that the recall was for, and it doesn’t sound like it would cause the kind of accident that your wife had.

The issue was with slow breaking over distance as the power bleeds away, a short stab for an emergency break wouldn’t be long enough for the bleed to be an issue.

[johnan]

Thanks very much for your quick posts.

As much as I don't like to say it, I think I do not have the time or inclination to pursue the matter. However I feel that people should try and make large companies accountable, otherwise they would get away with even more than they do already. I also realise that my case is fairly weak. I like the idea of an MoT test, thanks george.

I need to give it some thought, but I also need to get my car booked in for recall and service.

One other point - the service schedule states brake fluid change at 2 years. If I get the 30k service and the recall work done at the same time in the next week or so I should be able to get Toyota to confirm brake fluid change as part of the service record. Anyone else mange to do this? Surely Toyota wouldn't try and charge me for a 2 year brake fluid change if they have changed the master cylinder and brake lines as part of the recall. Would they?

Just get them to quote you for the service cost without the brake fluid change, pointing out it will be changed as part of the recall work.

Remind them of this when the car is taken in and make sure they (the service controller and staff) understand and know the situation.

They would have to be daft to think they could charge you for the fluid change, separate to the recall.

[Kip]

I'd say if you did want to do any investigative work, then a brake test on a rolling road would probably be the best idea. Shouldn't cost as much as a full MOT and would give you the data you need. Remember that the iQ is only a small city car and its level of grip isn't brilliant, especially compared with larger hatchbacks and sport model hatchbacks. Even with more powerful brakes, the stopping distance would not decrease unless you also improved the vehicles grip.

As for the accident, it's true that if you hit someone from behind, it's almost always your fault. The only exception to that would be if you could prove the vehicles systems let you down or were not performing as the manufacturer intended. The easiest way to test braking performance is a rolling road brake tester and is a much quicker and probably cheaper option than dismantling the brakes, measuring disc run-out, pad thickness and disc thickness.

[ormi]

heres my problem....we're getting too much like america we are all looking for someone to blame someone apart from us!!if the brakes were that bad you would have noticed as soon as you got in the car ie pulling out the car park in which case you should have got out your car and handed the keys back to the garage...

an mot test wont really show you anything to be honest but bash on if it makes you feel better....

anyway hope it gets fixed....but i think their is little white lies being told...ie not watching were going...to fast...too close...

[Jamesbelfast]

If the accident was a result of a mechanical failure then the police should have been notified and if they felt it was due to a failure in the vehicle they may have investigated further.

There is no point in having the brakes tested now as enough time has elapsed and the vehicle was not kept in secure custody before any tests. In other words there has been an opportunity for it to be tampered with.

A MOT or brake test is only pertinent as to the exact time when it is tested and such results could not be applied retrospectively.

[s44gtw]

It gives you the piece of mind that your brakes are performing as they should be now tho.

The UK is unusual in that a vehicle goes 3 years from new before it gets a mandatory brake test & inspection.

Then annually.

Its why the UK will soon come in line with other countries & get inspected & tested after 2 years.

PITTA when cars are looked after properly, but will save death traps like some Citroen brakes on automatic Saxo's used to be.

Report them as rubbish & dangerous to the dealer, to be told they meet what is required, only to find they could not pass the MOT when 3 years old.

This happened with my mothers car we bought her new.

If you feel the brakes are not up to standard get them tested, your life depends on them.

Never trust others opinion, that includes mine.

Recalls on brakes happen because of a handful of incidents.

Toyota iQ's had incidents.

Not saying this is one, but then who are we to say.

Does the Toyota dealership do a proper or MOT standard brake test after the Brake recall work or just a road test??

If they do, why have some customers claimed to need the brakes re inspected after having the work carried out?

george

[SallyIQ]

After my brake recall work was done, I had a brake fluid leak, by the time we realised and took it back to the dealer, the fluid had completely run out...

My partner had my car up on the ramp at his work the other day and has found that where the brake fluid had leaked, its now starting to corrode my shocks, so he reckons

Gotta go back again now...

My car was fine before I had this brake recall! Still cant bear t sell my car though, think im too attached especially where I have had it from new

[ormi]

After my brake recall work was done, I had a brake fluid leak, by the time we realised and took it back to the dealer, the fluid had completely run out...

My partner had my car up on the ramp at his work the other day and has found that where the brake fluid had leaked, its now starting to corrode my shocks, so he reckons

Gotta go back again now...

My car was fine before I had this brake recall! Still cant bear t sell my car though, think im too attached especially where I have had it from new

brake fluid now isnt corrosive so it cant make things rust/corrode..that was removed from brake fluid a long time ago......

and no no roller brake test is done on the mot brake tester the brakes are checked on roadtest..

[s44gtw]

Does brake fluid no longer strip paint, (just slower than it used to)

leading to unprotected metal which leads to corrosion of some surfaces which were previously protected by paint?

When i served my time as a mechanic you were trained to understand the properties of the products you used,

but then when i became a painter i came to understand where the training was still lacking.

http://www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brake_fluid

george

[SallyIQ]

Well when i took it back straight after the leak, the guy at Toyota wanted to wash underneath the car especially around the area it had leaked as he said it could damage parts, where the fluid had gotten everywhere, i can only believe what im told at the time

My next service is due in 2500 miles which ill probably do by mid December so they can look at it then

[johnan]

Well when i took it back straight after the leak, the guy at Toyota wanted to wash underneath the car especially around the area it had leaked as he said it could damage parts, where the fluid had gotten everywhere, i can only believe what im told at the time

My next service is due in 2500 miles which ill probably do by mid December so they can look at it then

Washed and repainted would be best. Non-synthetic brake fluid is a paint stripper, as George says.

[tarquin]

Same old story. Time and money. Why didnt the person doing the recall, cleanup his error of not taking care and paying attention but left you with a mess under there and a potential future problem. Because his error would of reflected on the time he had taken to do the job. So they rather give it back to you like it. After all when under normal circunstances are you going to inspect the under side of your car

David

[SallyIQ]

Well the way they dealt with me when i had the problem of the leak, I am very pleased with the way they handled it, we came to a good agreement!

[tarquin]

Sally Q I think your far too nice.

1, This was a standard recall

2, You should never have had a leak putting you at risk

3, They should have cleared up the mess afterwards

But what the eye don't see.

Then they say to you "Oh deary me, sorry about our engineers complete incompetence , we'll put it right for you"

Think about this, your car was perfectly fine before you took it to them. You end up having to take it back twice at your cost.

Kind regards

David

[s44gtw]

BUT....

we do not know what she got to make her happy in the end,

possibly currently relaxing at a long holiday Spa weekend someplace courtesy of a Toyota dealership!! ?

& also with nice new dampers or other parts fitted to the IQ.

that would be the least one should expect.

Chocolates & flowers dont really hack it IMHO.

george

[tarquin]

£20 off next new car. They are not that generous Because my recall was advised to me on a un related visit I didnt get a postal form to be stamped so I never got the compansarory voucher and chocolates or any compansation for having to return twicebecause of a bodged ipod socket install and at no point during both recalls was i offered a courtesy car. Joke

David

[sweet-dentist]

£20 off next new car. They are not that generous Because my recall was advised to me on a un related visit I didnt get a postal form to be stamped so I never got the compansarory voucher and chocolates or any compansation for having to return twicebecause of a bodged ipod socket install and at no point during both recalls was i offered a courtesy car. Joke

David

Here in Holland.... we get "nothing"... nothing at all...

No chocolate / no flowers / no giftcertificate / nothing... ... oh yes we did git something after the steeringwheel recall.... a misalignment... oh yeah...

Toyota and generosity ... hmmm ...

[tarquin]

ha ha, up to their usual quality then

David