Improving Hi Fi Sounds ?

[CharlieFarlie]

I am hoping to improve the sound from My existing Hi Fi set up in My 2006 T180.. Its not to bad but I feel it can be improved hopefully with some better Speakers ?? I guess I'm limited on the amplifier as I feel sure its integral to the TNS700 head unit which I do not want to change..

I do as many of You know quite a lot of motorway and long distance driving and like to have the CD player playing. Dont really find it a problem when the radio is on except it loses signal on some parts of the M6 North.. But then all of the cars Ive done the trip in do this except Our Jag which has DAB.

So will Speakers help ? And is it possible to fit a DAB module to the existing set up ??

Thanks..

Wee Charlie.

[Davrav]

I am hoping to improve the sound from My existing Hi Fi set up in My 2006 T180.. Its not to bad but I feel it can be improved hopefully with some better speakers ?? I guess I'm limited on the amplifier as I feel sure its integral to the TNS700 head unit which I do not want to change..

I do as many of You know quite a lot of motorway and long distance driving and like to have the CD player playing. Dont really find it a problem when the radio is on except it loses signal on some parts of the M6 North.. But then all of the cars Ive done the trip in do this except Our Jag which has DAB.

So will speakers help ? And is it possible to fit a DAB module to the existing set up ??

Thanks..

Wee Charlie.

How far do you want to go with this Charlie? HERE's one way of doing it

THIS'll give you an idea with regard to DAB - dunno if it'll work with your head unit

Got me links crossed there

Edited October 16, 2011 by Davrav

[Uncle_P]

Will new Speakers help? Yes, for certain. I'm not sure what size Speakers the 4.3 has but if you buy just about anything from a known manufacturer it'll be an improvement. If you're feeling flush, Infinity kappa or reference Speakers sound fabulous and are freely available on eBay. For improvements beyond a speaker change, maybe dynamat under the carpet to kill the background noise? After this, you're looking at big bucks for amplifiers, sub woofers etc..

If you can get me the speaker sizes, I'll have a hunt around the net and come up with something..

[CharlieFarlie]

I am hoping to improve the sound from My existing Hi Fi set up in My 2006 T180.. Its not to bad but I feel it can be improved hopefully with some better speakers ?? I guess I'm limited on the amplifier as I feel sure its integral to the TNS700 head unit which I do not want to change..

I do as many of You know quite a lot of motorway and long distance driving and like to have the CD player playing. Dont really find it a problem when the radio is on except it loses signal on some parts of the M6 North.. But then all of the cars Ive done the trip in do this except Our Jag which has DAB.

So will speakers help ? And is it possible to fit a DAB module to the existing set up ??

Thanks..

Wee Charlie.

How far do you want to go with this Charlie? HERE's one way of doing it

THIS'll give you an idea with regard to DAB - dunno if it'll work with your head unit

Got me links crossed there

David. I wasn't thinking of going that far .... My XF has a massive sound system ( Upgraded but fitted by Jaguar as an option ) Which houses the sub woofer in the well where the spare wheel goes. So this limits the car to carrying a space saver...

I was really thinking along the lines of speaker upgrades and hoping Someone could give Me speaker sizes and info on what to buy...

The space under the floor in Our Rav is chocker with stuff anyway !!

Thanks.

Oh and WOW that DAB tuner is expensive !!!! So not an option I'm afraid.. Having just shelled out 1500 quid for wheels and tyres and plans to order a tuning box this week I will be looking for something a little less expensive as this car is eating the coin. I don't really mind though as I like the car !!

Wee Charlie.

[CharlieFarlie]

Will new speakers help? Yes, for certain. I'm not sure what size speakers the 4.3 has but if you buy just about anything from a known manufacturer it'll be an improvement. If you're feeling flush, Infinity kappa or reference speakers sound fabulous and are freely available on ebay. For improvements beyond a speaker change, maybe dynamat under the carpet to kill the background noise? After this, you're looking at big bucks for amplifiers, sub woofers etc..

If you can get me the speaker sizes, I'll have a hunt around the net and come up with something..

Great I was hoping that Speakers would do the job.. Sizes ?? I haven't a clue and hope someone will chip in and advise.. Budget will dictate on this one as stated above this car is eating up coin very quickly and the next major project is the fitting of a rear door with wheel carrier along with matching bumper,Parking sensors and rear camera....

Thanks

Wee Charlie.

[Davrav]

Will new speakers help? Yes, for certain. I'm not sure what size speakers the 4.3 has but if you buy just about anything from a known manufacturer it'll be an improvement. If you're feeling flush, Infinity kappa or reference speakers sound fabulous and are freely available on ebay. For improvements beyond a speaker change, maybe dynamat under the carpet to kill the background noise? After this, you're looking at big bucks for amplifiers, sub woofers etc..

If you can get me the speaker sizes, I'll have a hunt around the net and come up with something..

Great I was hoping that Speakers would do the job.. Sizes ?? I haven't a clue and hope someone will chip in and advise.. Budget will dictate on this one as stated above this car is eating up coin very quickly and the next major project is the fitting of a rear door with wheel carrier along with matching bumper,Parking sensors and rear camera....

Thanks

Wee Charlie.

Original Speakers are 6.5 inches apparently - LINK

See the advice with regard to speaker depth though

[*srjp*]

Talkaudio - best forum by far for that sort of stuff. Yes, many of then spend tens of thousands on competition setups but they're happy to help advise beginners too.

Find out a bit more about what's already in your car though, you might already have pre-outs for an external amp on your HU and I would get an amp before Speakers. Dynamat is good but I only fitted it to one car where I could hear road noise already around the transmission tunnel, otherwise I'm not sure it's worth the expense for a casual listener and these cars are already better sound-deadend than many. That said, there's a cheaper version too that does the same thing, memory fails me but think it's called something like 'brownbread'...

[CharlieFarlie]

Talkaudio - best forum by far for that sort of stuff. Yes, many of then spend tens of thousands on competition setups but they're happy to help advise beginners too.

Find out a bit more about what's already in your car though, you might already have pre-outs for an external amp on your HU and I would get an amp before speakers. Dynamat is good but I only fitted it to one car where I could hear road noise already around the transmission tunnel, otherwise I'm not sure it's worth the expense for a casual listener and these cars are already better sound-deadend than many. That said, there's a cheaper version too that does the same thing, memory fails me but think it's called something like 'brownbread'...

All I can say is My car is a T180 that has not been altered in any way to the audio system. Thanks for the audio Forum but I'm hoping someone will read this and say what Speakers I need specifically for the Rav or at least My version..

I have absolutely no idea what pre-out is ! Which is why going onto a dedicated Audio forum would be just to confusing .. Thanks for the heads up though i appreciate it .....

David. It seems most of the 6.5 Infinity Speakers on the net are 2&1/4 inched in depth. Maybe I should strip a door panel off and have a measure up ?

Wee Charlie.

[Davrav]

Talkaudio - best forum by far for that sort of stuff. Yes, many of then spend tens of thousands on competition setups but they're happy to help advise beginners too.

Find out a bit more about what's already in your car though, you might already have pre-outs for an external amp on your HU and I would get an amp before speakers. Dynamat is good but I only fitted it to one car where I could hear road noise already around the transmission tunnel, otherwise I'm not sure it's worth the expense for a casual listener and these cars are already better sound-deadend than many. That said, there's a cheaper version too that does the same thing, memory fails me but think it's called something like 'brownbread'...

All I can say is My car is a T180 that has not been altered in any way to the audio system. Thanks for the audio Forum but I'm hoping someone will read this and say what Speakers I need specifically for the Rav or at least My version..

I have absolutely no idea what pre-out is ! Which is why going onto a dedicated Audio forum would be just to confusing .. Thanks for the heads up though i appreciate it .....

David. It seems most of the 6.5 Infinity Speakers on the net are 2&1/4 inched in depth. Maybe I should strip a door panel off and have a measure up ?

Wee Charlie.

Apparently, there are shallow fit Speakers available but I have no knowledge of likely sources. I have a vague memory of a member here changing his speakers but I can't remember who or what model of RAV it was

Edit: THIS sort of thing - no idea of quality...

Edited October 16, 2011 by Davrav

[CharlieFarlie]

A search for Speakers just brings up this thread ... In the link You posted above it seems the Guy doing the install has fitted plastic spacers to the door ? Perhaps this is cos it either needs very shallow Speakers or spacers to bring the average speaker forward..

I'm pretty good at fabrication and have full workshop facilities here. Its just that stuff of this nature is a puzzlement to Me !!

Wee Charlie.

[Davrav]

A search for speakers just brings up this thread ... In the link You posted above it seems the Guy doing the install has fitted plastic spacers to the door ? Perhaps this is cos it either needs very shallow speakers or spacers to bring the average speaker forward..

I'm pretty good at fabrication and have full workshop facilities here. Its just that stuff of this nature is a puzzlement to Me !!

Wee Charlie.

See edit in my last post Charlie

[CharlieFarlie]

A search for speakers just brings up this thread ... In the link You posted above it seems the Guy doing the install has fitted plastic spacers to the door ? Perhaps this is cos it either needs very shallow speakers or spacers to bring the average speaker forward..

I'm pretty good at fabrication and have full workshop facilities here. Its just that stuff of this nature is a puzzlement to Me !!

Wee Charlie.

See edit in my last post Charlie

Thanks !! Interesting.. But the Infinity ones are better specced and half the price .. Alpine are a top make though !! I'm decided .. Thanks to Your link above I can see how easy it is to remove the door panel and take a look at exactly what space is available . If it is that I can fabricate a spacer to make a higher spec unit fit that will not be detrimental to the looks of the door when re assembled then that's the route I will go.. I have plenty of time just now so will get started soon and post pictures if Anyone is interested ??

Thanks David !

Wee Charlie.

[Joylove]

There is a space for a small sub in the back door - maybe a 6.5", google the RAV4 JBL system the yanks have.

Also check out this.

http://www.talkaudio.co.uk/ipb/index.php/topic/348786-hi-im-new-and-id-like-to-put-a-stereo-in-my-car/

Start with the Speakers for sure, you can add amps later and keep the Speakers you already have. Also toyota do PDFs for under seat subs at least for the 4.2.

[Big Kev]

Chazmin but,

Could not disagree further with a great deal of what has gone before.....especially "start with the Speakers...." as this brings out the old COMPUTER addage of "rubbish in / rubbish out". As proven by the Scottish MD of a Scottish company called Linn Products, if you want quality of sound, you must start at the source, not at the end of the chain, the Speakers.

I personally would not overly criticise the factory fitted head unit of most Ravs., as I hardly use it, but suffice to say I would rate it as "above average". There are many double DIN (size term) units out there that will replace your unit and make those Speakers, which you think are the weakest link, sound a damn sight better.(Speak to Hoovie re Kenwood for example....)

I will cease soapboxification at this stage, but also suffice it to say that anybody who spends / overspends on car hi-fi is as daft as me who has spent the equivalent of two new Ravs (more....?) over the years on home (vinyl) playing stuff.....a car is the most hostile environment to enjoy well reproduced music in.....and then the plonkers fit woofers to their subwoofers....how the Friar Tuck CAN THEY CONCENTRATE ON DRIVING....?

Sorry for almost sounding sensible for a change,

Big Kev

[*srjp*]

http://www.talkaudio.co.uk/ipb/index.php/topic/348786-hi-im-new-and-id-like-to-put-a-stereo-in-my-car/

+1 on the link, exactly the forum I meant!

Charlie, first things first can you save yourself a lot of agro and buy Toyota upgrades such as amp and sub that would just plug directly into the existing system?

Anyway, apologies for throwing jargon in, by pre-outs I just mean the RCA plugs that let you connect audio equipment together - these are generally the same on your home hi-fi set-up if you have a separates system so you've seen them already (I've used home hi-fi RCA cables in cars before as they cost less for the same quality). It's possible depending on the spec that the standard Rav4 radio has these. I know the 58812 in a 4.2 doesn't but I'm assuming the 4.3 is better equipped...

I mention this because the headunit (HU) is probably quite good anyway, many being made by 'proper' manufacturers and rebranded by Toyota. I appreciate what Kev's saying about GIGO, but on these cars there's all the dashtop/steering wheel/computer integration you might lose if you removed it (and it makes your car a bit more of a theft target having a fancy new radio on display). You did mention a reversing camera though, so if you buy a double DIN unit look for one that accepts a Video feed, also some make their own cameras with switchable viewing angles you control via the HU.

As this forum seems light on audio discussion I'll chuck in a short summary based on my experiences.

Speakers: I'm ignorant of what's already in the 4.3 and many other models, but if you have a separate pod within the A pillars for tweeters then I'd say it's already well spec'd. If you don't then you want some nice component Speakers (try and get 6.5 in size if they fit because these are best for mid-range frequencies) with separate tweeters to fit in the A pillars. These involve more installation work but are worth it.

Sound-deadening: Helps keep internal noise (music!) in as well as external noise out. Rav 4.2 has average build quality in this respect so I'd certainly plaster it with the stuff if replacing the Speakers anyway. I hesitate to recommend it as there always seem to be lots of little clips inside doors which just love to break, and there's all the fancy safety equipment to play with if removing seats (shove it on the floor and around the transmission tunnel too). It can certainly be worth it if you find it hard to maintain a conversation on the motorway (and would like to!).

Amplifier: Thanks to the Nova boys many people assume amplifiers are just for powering ridiculous sub-woofers but they do a superb job of introducing clarity. When I gutted an old car which had been fully re-done audio wise, even down to the speaker cable and sound-deadening materials, I only carried over the HU and amp to the new car. The sound was still immeasurably better than factory without touching the Speakers. You would have to splice into your existing speaker cable but you can do this from right behind the head unit - it removes the need to take the doors apart. If you only replace the speakers and ignore the amp I swear you will only notice a placebo improvement for a short while. Personally I'm a fan of 'stealth' installations and have always fitted amps under the passenger seat - they don't need to occupy precious boot space. Downside is adding the power cable from the Battery through the bulkhead, and perhaps you'll need to replace the head unit if it doesn't have the RCA connectors.

Subwoofer: Soundwise I honestly don't see the need; I've had the sort that occupies a fair portion of the boot but apart from giving a back massage to passengers in the rear it didn't really add much for me the driver sitting up front. OK technically they protect the speakers by taking on the lower frequencies but again depends on cost etc whether that's worth it.

Extras: If you're going pro and replacing everything then upgrade the speaker wire while you're at it. You can also add extra batteries and spend a fortune on cabling if you're so inclined.

p.s. I am a bit of an Alpine fan and ran full Alpine set-ups in a few cars, it's supposedly not the best but it's a vast improvement on most factory equipment and, in my experience, very well built.

[dave.m]

Chazmin but,

Could not disagree further with a great deal of what has gone before.....especially "start with the speakers...." as this brings out the old COMPUTER addage of "rubbish in / rubbish out". As proven by the Scottish MD of a Scottish company called Linn Products, if you want quality of sound, you must start at the source, not at the end of the chain, the speakers.

I personally would not overly criticise the factory fitted head unit of most Ravs., as I hardly use it, but suffice to say I would rate it as "above average". There are many double DIN (size term) units out there that will replace your unit and make those speakers, which you think are the weakest link, sound a damn sight better.(Speak to Hoovie re Kenwood for example....)

I will cease soapboxification at this stage, but also suffice it to say that anybody who spends / overspends on car hi-fi is as daft as me who has spent the equivalent of two new Ravs (more....?) over the years on home (vinyl) playing stuff.....a car is the most hostile environment to enjoy well reproduced music in.....and then the plonkers fit woofers to their subwoofers....how the Friar Tuck CAN THEY CONCENTRATE ON DRIVING....?

Sorry for almost sounding sensible for a change,

Big Kev

Couldn't agree more Kev , rubbish in = rubbish out, you allways start at the source end. A good way to remember is, for example, you want to buy a sound system with a budget of say £600.

You would break it down like this -

Source (CD player or whatever) £300

Amp £200

Speakers £100

This was one of the basics I learned as a novice back in my DJing days from my associates at a well known radio station in this area.

[CharlieFarlie]

Guys one thing is for sure I will not be changing the Head Unit as to Me its like a control centre for many things in the car like the Sat Nav and phone for a start....

Could anyone point Me in the direction of the add ons or upgrades to the existing system ?? Links would help ??

I genuinely appreciate all the input and help but I would be lying if I said I understood a lot of it !!

Back to square one Me thinks .... If I can improve the sound quality by changing Speakers and adding on other components to the existing head unit that will do for Me ....

Many and sincere thanks ..

Confused Wee Charlie.

[Joylove]

The Speakers in your car will be the cheapest, crappiest paper-coned small-magneted budget-construction items you can possibly buy, thanks to the bean counters.

Almost any aftermarket item will be an upgrade, with the caveat that some top end Speakers are designed to work with a subwoofer, and so have less bass.

Look for good (higher) sensitivity and wider frequency response.

[dave.m]

Charlie, if you want to go down the new speaker route, fair enough give it a go as you can get decent Speakers for not a lot of cash. The point I'm making

is, don't go spending bucket loads of cash on said Speakers if keeping existing head unit as you might see little improvement to sound quality. Also be very

careful when selecting your Speakers. Best to remove existing one and check the ratings and buy like for like, ie if your speakers say 8 ohms, buy another set

at 8 ohms. That way you won't risk damaging the amps in the head unit (SHCM if he chips in will tell you what is safe if you select different). When it comes to

sensitivity, generally anything above 89 decibells (DB) should be good. I would also say, that all of this is a personal thing, everyones hearing is different. What

I like, you might hate, others might love. When I bought my current car, it came with a Bose subwoofer system which I think sounds great, but I can appreciate

that it's not every ones cup of tea. I have now bought a Bose sound-dock for use at home as well, which I also love. When it comes to DAB radio, you can buy

an add on to use with your existing system. I'm sure Bose used to do them but many others are available.Good luck

[dave.m]

Guys one thing is for sure I will not be changing the Head Unit as to Me its like a control centre for many things in the car like the Sat Nav and phone for a start....

Could anyone point Me in the direction of the add ons or upgrades to the existing system ?? Links would help ??

I genuinely appreciate all the input and help but I would be lying if I said I understood a lot of it !!

Back to square one Me thinks .... If I can improve the sound quality by changing speakers and adding on other components to the existing head unit that will do for Me ....

Many and sincere thanks ..

Confused Wee Charlie.

See link to in car DAB converter, works by sending DAB radio via your FM head unit. Many other units available if you google it -

http://www.amazon.co...r/dp/B0012GLXMU

[Big Kev]

The speakers in your car will be the cheapest, crappiest paper-coned small-magneted budget-construction items you can possibly buy, thanks to the bean counters.

Almost any aftermarket item will be an upgrade, with the caveat that some top end speakers are designed to work with a subwoofer, and so have less bass.

Look for good (higher) sensitivity and wider frequency response.

Bob min,

Would not list on here, but some of the Speakers I could list which have compressed paper (yep....papier mache...) cones and cost a small fortune would amaze you....but you are correct partly....these will not be the best transducers as are made to a budget, but it is still down to the signal quality that makes these vibrate / displace air.

I utterly hate hi-fi snobs and have been subjected to the most utter bovine jobeez you could imagine, so I went down the route of using my ears, but then got caught up in the upgrade /equipment trap and forgot to listen to the music anymore.

Good point by Charlie though is that his head unit is important to so many other functions, so improved Speakers may be his best route, as Dave says "but don't spend a fortune..."

Big Kev

[Joylove]

Bob min,

Would not list on here, but some of the speakers I could list which have compressed paper (yep....papier mache...) cones and cost a small fortune would amaze you....but you are correct partly....these will not be the best transducers as are made to a budget, but it is still down to the signal quality that makes these vibrate / displace air.

I utterly hate hi-fi snobs and have been subjected to the most utter bovine jobeez you could imagine, so I went down the route of using my ears, but then got caught up in the upgrade /equipment trap and forgot to listen to the music anymore.

Good point by Charlie though is that his head unit is important to so many other functions, so improved speakers may be his best route, as Dave says "but don't spend a fortune..."

Big Kev

Agreed that paper can be used to make a decent cone when resin implanted; but the pressed paper cone, suspension, butyl (or not) surround, magnet, basket rigidity, sensitivity and cone suspension are all items that will be done at the lowest cost on the OEM Speakers. Not only the woofers, but the tweeters will be gash as well, and decent tweeters can really make your music sparkle.

OEM Speakers

Compared to some Kappa 625.5i

Source

The point about source unit is noted of course, but the adage I stand by is "the chain is only as strong as the weakest link.". Crap Speakers and tweeters with a moderate source will sound crap.

Once the speakers are done, then if there is not enough power then an amplifier driven with speaker or line level audio can be added if more volume is needed.

Notes:

1) Bass can go down as well as up :)

2) The jump in tweeter performance may make the audio uncomfortably bright because you are conditioned to muffled audio

3) More sensitive speakers by 3dB will require less input power by 50% to achieve the same volume

4) The head unit amplifier will become the weakest link after changing the speakers, however this should not deter you from taking the first step. BTW, don't damage the new speakers by spanking them with the headunit so loud it's in distortion.

[Big Kev]

Bob min,

Would not list on here, but some of the speakers I could list which have compressed paper (yep....papier mache...) cones and cost a small fortune would amaze you....but you are correct partly....these will not be the best transducers as are made to a budget, but it is still down to the signal quality that makes these vibrate / displace air.

I utterly hate hi-fi snobs and have been subjected to the most utter bovine jobeez you could imagine, so I went down the route of using my ears, but then got caught up in the upgrade /equipment trap and forgot to listen to the music anymore.

Good point by Charlie though is that his head unit is important to so many other functions, so improved speakers may be his best route, as Dave says "but don't spend a fortune..."

Big Kev

Agreed that paper can be used to make a decent cone when resin implanted; but the pressed paper cone, suspension, butyl (or not) surround, magnet, basket rigidity, sensitivity and cone suspension are all items that will be done at the lowest cost on the OEM Speakers. Not only the woofers, but the tweeters will be gash as well, and decent tweeters can really make your music sparkle.

OEM Speakers

Compared to some Kappa 625.5i

Source

The point about source unit is noted of course, but the adage I stand by is "the chain is only as strong as the weakest link.". Crap Speakers and tweeters with a moderate source will sound crap.

Once the speakers are done, then if there is not enough power then an amplifier driven with speaker or line level audio can be added if more volume is needed.

Notes:

1) Bass can go down as well as up :)

2) The jump in tweeter performance may make the audio uncomfortably bright because you are conditioned to muffled audio

3) More sensitive speakers by 3dB will require less input power by 50% to achieve the same volume

4) The head unit amplifier will become the weakest link after changing the speakers, however this should not deter you from taking the first step. BTW, don't damage the new speakers by spanking them with the headunit so loud it's in distortion.

Spot on mate....you have just confirmed exactly what I posted above....the amount of confusing jargon that is flung at an unsuspecting public has them exactly that....confused, and buying stuff that somebody else's ears (or sales targets...) dictate. The amount of mid price to expensive car speakers I have seen of an open backed design, only part sealed by a "drip protector" section that are left to wallow around in a part plastic / mostly metal open enclosure leaves me speechless.

Have also heard £12k worth of CD player played into £250.00 speakers.....superb results, then reverted to similar budget equipment you would match to these speakers.....utterly average.....the source will always dictate the end result.

One of these subjects that could outstrip Runflats debate......

[CharlieFarlie]

Now about those Runflat tyres ...........................................

Guys. I genuinely appreciate Your advice I do honestly and the time taken to try and point out the basics !!.... But in hindsight I think I will just leave well a lone as I haven't a clue as to what a great proportion of the above means !!

But thanks again !!!!............................ :thumbsup:

Wee Charlie.

[Big Kev]

Now about those Runflat tyres ...........................................

Guys. I genuinely appreciate Your advice I do honestly and the time taken to try and point out the basics !!.... But in hindsight I think I will just leave well a lone as I haven't a clue as to what a great proportion of the above means !!

But thanks again !!!!............................ :thumbsup:

Wee Charlie.

Have ye thought about fitting an 8 track tape system in yer car, Charlie?....now we're talking REAL sounds man....

Big Ears