Brake Peadal Creeps

[ARCTICWRATH]

Hi , I am writing hopeing someone has some light to shed on my problem , my 56 Avensis which I have had for a year now failed its mot because the brake peadal creeps to the floor when the engine is runing and the peadal is kept under pressure, it is going into get a new master cylinder on monday but I dont think this is the problem, the garage at first blamed new front pads that I had a mechanic fit before the mot they were bought online and where not toyota genuine parts but came reccomended , the garage is quite happy with me driving the car while waiting for the part and fiting, the garage checked the brakes and bled the system but did not solve the problem,, has anyone had a similar problem? should it of failed the mot? could it be the pads? thx for you time , the car drives fine and brakes well?

[cmia]

is it diesel?

[ARCTICWRATH]

is it diesel?

no its a 1.8 VVT-I T2 5DR 1794cc Manual Petrol 20006

[Fitter]

Hi , I am writing hopeing someone has some light to shed on my problem , my 56 Avensis which I have had for a year now failed its mot because the brake peadal creeps to the floor when the engine is runing and the peadal is kept under pressure, it is going into get a new master cylinder on monday but I dont think this is the problem, the garage at first blamed new front pads that I had a mechanic fit before the mot they were bought online and where not toyota genuine parts but came reccomended , the garage is quite happy with me driving the car while waiting for the part and fiting, the garage checked the brakes and bled the system but did not solve the problem,, has anyone had a similar problem? should it of failed the mot? could it be the pads? thx for you time , the car drives fine and brakes well?

Try the brakes with the engine off. If you get a solid pedal then the brake system is sound. When the brakes are applied when the engine is running and the car stationary the ABS system senses that the wheels are locked and a skid is occurring and it releases the pressure in the system. The more the pedal is pressed, the more the pressure will be released until the pedal is floored.This topic has been aired on this forum previously and other members had Toyota confirm that this is normal.

Fitter

[ARCTICWRATH]

TY i was pretty sure this tester was guessing and failing the car for no good reason specially when they said it may be the new pads I had fitted, I am awaiting a call from the garage I will post with there answer, the car is under warranty and we were told the master cylinder replacement would be covered however I dont think and now am sure thats not the problem, anyway lets see what they say and if they will now mot the car? we did feel it was the ABS, but why would they not think this also?

[Parts-King]

This is a well known and dcoumented condition, it is most likely not an MOT failure, VOSA are aware of this and you should contact them if concerned

It is all to do with the ABS and EBD where you get the sensation the pedal is creeping. If a large braking force is applied when the vehicle is stationary, the lack of feedback from the brake system will allow the driver to press the pedal to the floor giving the feeling of "lack of brake performance". If the same pedal force was applied by the driver when driving, the brake force would be extremely high. The driver normally senses this and does not apply such a great pedal force. Of course you must check for leaks etc first, but I would think this is the feel you are having.

Kingo

[ARCTICWRATH]

This is a well known and dcoumented condition, it is most likely not an MOT failure, VOSA are aware of this and you should contact them if concerned

It is all to do with the ABS and EBD where you get the sensation the pedal is creeping. If a large braking force is applied when the vehicle is stationary, the lack of feedback from the brake system will allow the driver to press the pedal to the floor giving the feeling of "lack of brake performance". If the same pedal force was applied by the driver when driving, the brake force would be extremely high. The driver normally senses this and does not apply such a great pedal force. Of course you must check for leaks etc first, but I would think this is the feel you are having.

Kingo

thx for all the replies , talked to the garage today and they are saying they are not aware that this is common or normal and as it stands will not MOT the car, so we will try again on monday might even let them fit the new Master cylinder ( its covered by my warrantee am told), I dont know, unless I provide evidence that Toyota say this is normal I dont know what is going to happen, the garage manager did say he would phone VOSA , but will they allow the MOt pass? anyway I will post on Monday with the latest news on this! also I contacted my the local TOYota dealer ( who I did not buy the car from) he said this waS common in the diesel but not the petrol, hmmm????????????????

[cmia]

This is a well known and dcoumented condition, it is most likely not an MOT failure, VOSA are aware of this and you should contact them if concerned

It is all to do with the ABS and EBD where you get the sensation the pedal is creeping. If a large braking force is applied when the vehicle is stationary, the lack of feedback from the brake system will allow the driver to press the pedal to the floor giving the feeling of "lack of brake performance". If the same pedal force was applied by the driver when driving, the brake force would be extremely high. The driver normally senses this and does not apply such a great pedal force. Of course you must check for leaks etc first, but I would think this is the feel you are having.

Kingo

thx for all the replies , talked to the garage today and they are saying they are not aware that this is common or normal and as it stands will not MOT the car, so we will try again on monday might even let them fit the new Master cylinder ( its covered by my warrantee am told), I dont know, unless I provide evidence that Toyota say this is normal I dont know what is going to happen, the garage manager did say he would phone VOSA , but will they allow the MOt pass? anyway I will post on Monday with the latest news on this! also I contacted my the local TOYota dealer ( who I did not buy the car from) he said this waS common in the diesel but not the petrol, hmmm????????????????

ok,

In diesel, brake creep is normal. its known as "diesel creep".

In petrols, if the brake pedal goes down then your issue is with

Master Cylinder,

Vacum Lines.

I am aware of VOSA knows about ABS and EBD on diesels, but not heard of a case for petrols.

Get them to change the master cylinder.

[ARCTICWRATH]

This is a well known and dcoumented condition, it is most likely not an MOT failure, VOSA are aware of this and you should contact them if concerned

It is all to do with the ABS and EBD where you get the sensation the pedal is creeping. If a large braking force is applied when the vehicle is stationary, the lack of feedback from the brake system will allow the driver to press the pedal to the floor giving the feeling of "lack of brake performance". If the same pedal force was applied by the driver when driving, the brake force would be extremely high. The driver normally senses this and does not apply such a great pedal force. Of course you must check for leaks etc first, but I would think this is the feel you are having.

Kingo

thx for all the replies , talked to the garage today and they are saying they are not aware that this is common or normal and as it stands will not MOT the car, so we will try again on monday might even let them fit the new Master cylinder ( its covered by my warrantee am told), I dont know, unless I provide evidence that Toyota say this is normal I dont know what is going to happen, the garage manager did say he would phone VOSA , but will they allow the MOt pass? anyway I will post on Monday with the latest news on this! also I contacted my the local TOYota dealer ( who I did not buy the car from) he said this waS common in the diesel but not the petrol, hmmm????????????????

ok,

In diesel, brake creep is normal. its known as "diesel creep".

In petrols, if the brake pedal goes down then your issue is with

Master Cylinder,

Vacum Lines.

I am aware of VOSA knows about ABS and EBD on diesels, but not heard of a case for petrols.

Get them to change the master cylinder.

the car is going in on Monday so we will see if the new master cylinder sorts it out, I will update then

[ARCTICWRATH]

This is a well known and dcoumented condition, it is most likely not an MOT failure, VOSA are aware of this and you should contact them if concerned

It is all to do with the ABS and EBD where you get the sensation the pedal is creeping. If a large braking force is applied when the vehicle is stationary, the lack of feedback from the brake system will allow the driver to press the pedal to the floor giving the feeling of "lack of brake performance". If the same pedal force was applied by the driver when driving, the brake force would be extremely high. The driver normally senses this and does not apply such a great pedal force. Of course you must check for leaks etc first, but I would think this is the feel you are having.

Kingo

thx for all the replies , talked to the garage today and they are saying they are not aware that this is common or normal and as it stands will not MOT the car, so we will try again on monday might even let them fit the new Master cylinder ( its covered by my warrantee am told), I dont know, unless I provide evidence that Toyota say this is normal I dont know what is going to happen, the garage manager did say he would phone VOSA , but will they allow the MOt pass? anyway I will post on Monday with the latest news on this! also I contacted my the local TOYota dealer ( who I did not buy the car from) he said this waS common in the diesel but not the petrol, hmmm????????????????

ok,

In diesel, brake creep is normal. its known as "diesel creep".

In petrols, if the brake pedal goes down then your issue is with

Master Cylinder,

Vacum Lines.

I am aware of VOSA knows about ABS and EBD on diesels, but not heard of a case for petrols.

Get them to change the master cylinder.

OK, latest update on our Avensis brake creep MOT failure, after some time the end result is that no work was done on the car and a new MOT certificate was issued, the garage manager arranged for V.O.S.A to test the car today and although (EXCESS PLAY) was found the car is safe to drive and the opinion is that when the new front pads wear in the excess play may dissapear , so as the manager said they had to be on the safe side and overall I am happy with the result, but my wife who drives the car was really stressed out, well if a car fails an mot on its brakes is it safe to drive it for over a week ? yes the garage says , but would you drive it? we had no choice stuck out in the sticks with only the one vechile , anyway thats it , any comments from you guys?

[cmia]

Excess play where?

[Parts-King]

Excess play is a cop out, no work done on the car and now it passes?

Like I said from the start, it's the effect of ABS and EBD

Kingo

[cmia]

Excess play is a cop out, no work done on the car and now it passes?

Like I said from the start, it's the effect of ABS and EBD

Kingo

do you have the VOSA issue number?

I am aware of diesels but not petrols.

[ARCTICWRATH]

Excess play is a cop out, no work done on the car and now it passes?

Like I said from the start, it's the effect of ABS and EBD

Kingo

do you have the VOSA issue number?

I am aware of diesels but not petrols.

test certificate says,,,,,,,,,,,, ADVISORY ITEM- 001 BRAKE PEADAL SOFT AND CREEPING UNDER PRESSURE

MOT test No- 439807591264

odometer reading 31499

test class IV

[cmia]

To me that sounds like.

Your tryes are bald, but its ok.

[ARCTICWRATH]

Excess play is a cop out, no work done on the car and now it passes?

Like I said from the start, it's the effect of ABS and EBD

Kingo

do you have the VOSA issue number?

I am aware of diesels but not petrols.

test certificate says,,,,,,,,,,,, ADVISORY ITEM- 001 BRAKE PEADAL SOFT AND CREEPING UNDER PRESSURE

MOT test No- 439807591264

odometer reading 31499

test class IV

final post on this matter, I am not entirely happy but the garage and now VOSA say the car is safe to drive and I have mt pass certificate although it has the advisory note mentioned, before the pass I emailed VOSA I recieved this email today,,

Dear Mr Reid,

Thank you for your e-mail enquiry dated 27th October 2011, concerning MOT.

Section 3.3.C of the MOT Inspection Manual covers Service Brake Control for vehicles with high servo boost. On such vehicles the pedal will creep and this Section provides a defined test procedure. In respect of pedal creep with servo assistance (engine running) the vehicle will only fail if the pedal touches the floor.

You can view the MOT inspection manuals via the link below:-

http://www.transportoffice.gov.uk/crt/doitonline/bl/mottestingmanualsandguides/mottestingmanualsandguides.htm

If you think your car has incorrectly failed an MOT test you will be required to complete a VT17 appeal form which are available from any MOT testing station. Alternatively, you can ring our Contact Centre on the number below who will be able to advise you further.

You must appeal within 14 days of the test and we will require a full test fee from you. We will then offer an appointment within 5 working days to recheck your vehicle and if your appeal is successful, some or all of the test fee may be refunded to you.

If you unable to go through the appeals process because you are either outside of the time limit or have had your vehicle repaired, we will pass on the details you have provided to the Regional Intelligence Unit who may use this information for further investigation.

I hope this information has assisted you with your enquiry, but if you have any further questions please do not hesitate to contact us again.

Kind Regards,

Robert Evans

Customer Service Centre

VOSA Operations Directorate

Tel: 0300 123 9000

The staff at the VOSA Contact Centre are keen to hear your feedback on the service that they provide for you,to enable them to further understand customer requirements and make improvements where possible. Please take a few moments to complete our Contact Centre Customer Feedback form by clicking here

so we I reckon we will carry on and see what happens next year!!