Is This Going To Kill The Hybrid Battery?

[Glyyde]

Not sure if anyone else find this, on my gen 3, everytime I start the car, it will normally use some power from the hybrid Battery and will discharge it to about 2 bar left before using the engine fully, unless I depress the accelerator enough to switch off the hybrid engine (which is almost at the power end on HSD). Will the discharging of the Battery this way kill the lifespan of it?

By the way, how long is the warranty on the hybrid Battery for those who bought the gen 3 when it was released?

[timberwolf]

It is designed to do that.

In a Prius, the State of Charge (SOC) of the HV Battery can be between 40% (one bar) and 80% (full bars), it is kept within those limits to allow the HV Battery to last for at least 10 years/100,000 miles.

The reason that the HV Battery is favoured more than the petrol engine as the motive force when first powered on, is because the petrol engine has to warm itself up and heat up the catalytic converters. The second reason to use the HV battery is to warm up the battery.

[Grumpy Cabbie]

I understand the hybrid Battery of the first batch of gen3's was only 60k miles BUT I have been assured by my dealer that this will be honoured upto 100k miles - I am yet to get this in writing though. If it is 100k and I get it in writing I will be keeping the car, if it is 60k then I'll hand the car back at the first sign of any trouble.

For what it's worth though, the HV Battery is warranted to 150k miles in some States in America - California mainly, so if it can hack 150k miles in the hot sun then it should be OK in the UK - we all know what cry baby's the Americans can be with their lawyers and all ;)

[Glyyde]

It is designed to do that.

In a Prius, the State of Charge (SOC) of the HV battery can be between 40% (one bar) and 80% (full bars), it is kept within those limits to allow the HV battery to last for at least 10 years/100,000 miles.

The reason that the HV battery is favoured more than the petrol engine as the motive force when first powered on, is because the petrol engine has to warm itself up and heat up the catalytic converters. The second reason to use the HV battery is to warm up the battery.

So you are saying that on the HSD, if there is only 1 bar left, there is actually 40% of the hybrid Battery power left? So in actual fact, I am not draining my Battery even if I drove it down to 2 bars? As I read that draining the Battery completely is bad for it, hence why I am worried.

[Glyyde]

I understand the hybrid battery of the first batch of gen3's was only 60k miles BUT I have been assured by my dealer that this will be honoured upto 100k miles - I am yet to get this in writing though. If it is 100k and I get it in writing I will be keeping the car, if it is 60k then I'll hand the car back at the first sign of any trouble.

For what it's worth though, the HV battery is warranted to 150k miles in some States in America - California mainly, so if it can hack 150k miles in the hot sun then it should be OK in the UK - we all know what cry baby's the Americans can be with their lawyers and all ;)

so its 60k warranty for the Battery? Is there any time limit on that or its based on mileage?

Whats the first sign of problems with the Battery?

[Jan&tone]

I unlock the garage, open the car, press the power button and immediately afterwards the EV button.

This STOPS the ice starting up while I back the car out, lock the garage, program the satnav if I need to and drive to the end of the road (some 300 yards). This stops the car wasting petrol while I am fiddling about!

I then turn one way or the other - still on EV - and accellerate away. If the engine is cold, ie not been used for 30 mins or so, then at 18mph the ice kicks in. I have done this ever since I bought the gen3, as it was something that I had done for 2.5 years with the gen2 - the only difference with the gen2 was that it went up to 28mph before the ice kicked in. The Gen3 does that if the engine is warm but not when its cold.

[timberwolf]

So you are saying that on the HSD, if there is only 1 bar left, there is actually 40% of the hybrid battery power left? So in actual fact, I am not draining my battery even if I drove it down to 2 bars? As I read that draining the battery completely is bad for it, hence why I am worried.

I've rounded the percentages because I find it easier to remember 40 and 80 off the top of head. But yes, when there is 1 bar displayed the Battery still has 40% SOC, and the Prius HV Battery management won't let you use that 40% (unless someone discovers a bug/flaw in the system as there is with the Gen 2 and running out of petrol).

[Glyyde]

I've rounded the percentages because I find it easier to remember 40 and 80 off the top of head. But yes, when there is 1 bar displayed the battery still has 40% SOC, and the Prius HV battery management won't let you use that 40% (unless someone discovers a bug/flaw in the system as there is with the Gen 2 and running out of petrol).

That is reassuring to know. Thanks. At least I wun need to worry when my batt goes to only 2 bars all the time.

[Chris Dance]

I understand the hybrid Battery is warranted for 8 years and the car 5 years from new..

[Grumpy Cabbie]

so its 60k warranty for the battery? Is there any time limit on that or its based on mileage?

Whats the first sign of problems with the battery?

On the first batch of gen 3's up until June 2010 I believe yes. The time limit I understand was only 5 years/60k miles BUT after all the trouble with Toyota in Feb/Mar 2010 the warranty was increased to 100k miles 5 years or 100k miles 8 years for the hybrid side. (but I could be wrong - please check)

The gen2 had the 100k mile/8 year hybrid warranty. Why Toyota felt the need to reduce it to 60k miles for the gen3 and then increase it back to 100k miles, nobody knows. Trouble is, there is a grey area on the warranty for those gen3 Prius sold June 2009 - June 2010. As I've said earlier, my dealer say it will be honoured up to 100k but I am yet to get this in writing. Perhaps PartsKing can comment?

Regarding the first signs of HV Battery problem, you will find the Battery starting to cycle faster and faster from full to high very quickly, your mpg's will drop alarmingly and the Battery fan will start blowing like billyoh. Sometimes however, you will get no warning and the car will just stop and the dash will light up like a Christmas tree, though this is more likely with age. Personally I wouldn't lose any sleep over it in the same way you wouldn't about your existing cars engine or clutch going pop. If the HV battery fails you are very unlucky. (I have previously posted a link for a Canadian news report on a cab company over there which has run their Prii to 1 million km which is about 600+k miles!)

[Glyyde]

I thought the increase in warranty was only for new buyers after a certain date (not sure when). If previous buyer wants to have that warranty, they are suppose to pay extra? Or is that not the case and Toyota are giving the full hybrid warranty to all buyers?

[blue verso 56]

At the time in 2009 I looked into purchasing the new Prius and the reduction in the warranty on the Battery really put me off buying a Prius and I bought a Automatic diesel Verso I found it strange they should reduce the warranty as I believe in the USA and Australia at the time they had increased it but I may be wrong ! there were some threads on the warranty reduction when the GEN 3 Prius was launched

With the increase of the Battery warranty I felt more confident to buy which I did and are very pleased with the car ! no more smelly diesel hands for me and are getting twice the MPG

[Flaninacupboard]

Not sure if anyone else find this, on my gen 3, everytime I start the car, it will normally use some power from the hybrid battery and will discharge it to about 2 bar left before using the engine fully, unless I depress the accelerator enough to switch off the hybrid engine (which is almost at the power end on HSD). Will the discharging of the battery this way kill the lifespan of it?

By the way, how long is the warranty on the hybrid battery for those who bought the gen 3 when it was released?

This is normal. S1 warmup puts high demand on the Battery, and little to zero on the ICE. that usually lasts about 50 seconds, longer in subzero temperatures.

To get to 2 bars in S1 you must either be driving hard, or fast, or going uphill. (or running very agressive AC, i will discount that one at this time of year!). If you want to avoid it, slow down, or accelerate less agressively, or if it's a hill, waiting a few seconds before getting off the driveway would help (i will start the car before putting my coat and bag in the back, unplugging it, and locking the front door, that helps on very cold days as i go straight up a hill).

Routinely going to 2 bars is not "bad" for the Battery, it should still live to the end of the warranty. However, it will affect it's lifespan, and that may mean 150,000 miles instead of 200,000. (i don't have real data on that, no-one will).

I avoid letting my SOC that low, because you must always replace that used energy, and the car won't allow certain drive modes (EV, SHM, Stealth, WarpStealth) which i want access to in order to maximise MPGs :)

[Parts-King]

The gen2 had the 100k mile/8 year hybrid warranty. Why Toyota felt the need to reduce it to 60k miles for the gen3 and then increase it back to 100k miles, nobody knows. Trouble is, there is a grey area on the warranty for those gen3 Prius sold June 2009 - June 2010. As I've said earlier, my dealer say it will be honoured up to 100k but I am yet to get this in writing. Perhaps PartsKing can comment?

I have never seen that anywhere officially, it maybe something that gets looked at as a goodwill policy but ive never seen that anywhere so i don't know how your dealer can comment, it just fills you with false hope Im afraid

The reduction in warranty and then the increase leaving a gap where customers could pay to have the extended warranty was a !Removed! up IMHO, i have know idea who dreamed up that nonsense

Kingo

[Ancient Nerd]

I have never seen that anywhere officially, it maybe something that gets looked at as a goodwill policy but ive never seen that anywhere so i don't know how your dealer can comment, it just fills you with false hope Im afraid.

And I doubt you will, until this time next year when most of the three year warranties run out. Then Toyota is likely to get a UK only rerun of the great brake fiasco.

The reduction in warranty and then the increase leaving a gap where customers could pay to have the extended warranty was a !Removed! up IMHO, i have know idea who dreamed up that nonsense

After a few contacts with Toyota Customer Services, and seeing the corporate attitude over the great brake fiasco. I have a good idea - it could be just about anyone from Toyota. It is obvious that no one at Toyota is remotely interested in their customers.

I have discussed this a few times with dealers in my area. None of them can understand it either. The Prius is a reliable car, with low warranty claims. It won't cost Toyota very much. But think of all that commission for Toyota from the company providing the extended warranty. And I seriously resent paying around £1000 for the privilege of having acted as a Test guinea pig for Toyota.

All Toyota' GBs responses on the subject of the Weasel Warranty have been seriously economical with the truth.

This situation would not have happened if Toyota had stuck to their guns and kept to their original statement that the longer warranties were no longer needed. However, this wasn't the case, so they responded, but decided to penalise those of us who made the mistake of buying early.

I have been approached by three of the dealers I have bought from, or who have serviced my cars in the past. I have made it very clear that I will not be buying a new Prius, and certainly not any other Toyota.

As my car has been devalued by £1000, then I will pay for the warranty, and keep the current car for as long as it remains reliable. At the same time, I will continue to tell anyone and everyone just how little Toyota think of their customers.

And if you are insane enough to buy a PHEV, then what. My view is that Toyota is probably upping the cost to profit from the £5000 grant. So that when the grant money runs out (as happened a few years ago, after a very short period, with the Gen II Prius) Toyota will drop the price by £5000 after a modest interval, because sales will have dropped through the floor. What then for resale values for the early PHEVs.

GC, don't do it. Keep your current car. Take out an extended Toyota warranty. And run it until it as long as it remains reliable. Look at the Canadian examples. You get cheap motoring. Toyota gets a modest commission , but loses another sale. And you also can explain to all your customers that the current Prius, and especially the PHEV, is no longer worth buying. Who knows, Toyota might even come to their senses by the time it has to be replaced

[Opifex]

To get to 2 bars in S1 you must either be driving hard, or fast, or going uphill.

Am I misunderstanding something here? I often have only 2 bars showing after driving around quite slowly in a built-up area, so the car runs on Battery until it gets to 2 bars and the ICE then fires up to recharge it.

I avoid letting my SOC that low, ……

How can I avoid it if I’m driving at slow speed and the 'natural' state of the car is to run on Battery?

[Grumpy Cabbie]

Just drive it normally and all will be well. I've put 59k hard taxi miles on my old gen3 and all ok with regard to the Battery (steering column issue though but this is unrelated).

I spend 90% of my time in heavy stop start traffic and my Battery goes down to 2 bars a lot. So far I can't percept any difference in how the HV Battery runs.

I would say that I do avoid using EV mode as forcing the HV battery low quickly probably doesn't do it much good, but that's just my personal thoughts and probably not scientific.

[Flaninacupboard]

Am I misunderstanding something here? I often have only 2 bars showing after driving around quite slowly in a built-up area, so the car runs on battery until it gets to 2 bars and the ICE then fires up to recharge it.

If you use pulse and glide you won't reduce SOC and will get better MPG. not always possible though.

How can I avoid it if I’m driving at slow speed and the 'natural' state of the car is to run on battery?

Well i have a major advantage with my plugin pack, so long as i'm demanding less than 14amps from the HV Battery my SOC won't reduce at all. I want my SOC to stay high to encourage the HSD to continue drawing power from the HV Battery. If my plugin pack is empty, then i will try to pulse and glide. The DVD that comes with the gen3 specifically tells you to accelerate moderately hard to your desired speed, then let off completely, and gently re-engage the pedal. That is basically pulse and glide.

[Jan&tone]

To get to 2 bars in S1 you must either be driving hard, or fast, or going uphill.

Am I misunderstanding something here? I often have only 2 bars showing after driving around quite slowly in a built-up area, so the car runs on Battery until it gets to 2 bars and the ICE then fires up to recharge it.

I avoid letting my SOC that low, ……

How can I avoid it if I’m driving at slow speed and the 'natural' state of the car is to run on Battery?

If you have a Gen3 Prius that has no additional bits - ie is as standard as it came out of the showroom, then you (Opifex) are correct. If you drive in a 30mph or lower area and you are gentle on the gas pedal, then you will, inevitably, get down to 2bars on the Battery indicator. This you cannot avoid unless you use petrol all the time which is not the idea of a hybrid.

The HV battery is designed never to fully discharge, I believe others have mentioned elsewhere that when 2 bars are showing you still have 40pct of the charge left.

Batteries are designed to be charged and discharged, and as far as I know no damage will be done to your car in any way, shape or form by using the EV facility - otherwise why would it be there!

You are also correct that if you are gently on the gas and driving slowly then the car will automatically default to electric propulsion, it's designed to! (partly to save on petrol and partly to scare old ladies in car parks :-) )

If you want to use petrol all the time, why buy a hybrid? any old car will use petrol all the time, only proper cars have the option

[Flaninacupboard]

then you will, inevitably, get down to 2bars on the battery indicator. This you cannot avoid unless you use petrol all the time which is not the idea of a hybrid.

If you pulse and glide you demand a good level of power (10kw+) from the engine, putting it in the max area of the BSFC map. Once at target speed you lift off, and "glide", with the HSI sat just above the CHG area. You can do this in crawling traffic by pulsing to say 15mph, gliding to 10mph, pulse back up etc.

Batteries are designed to be charged and discharged, and as far as I know no damage will be done to your car in any way, shape or form by using the EV facility - otherwise why would it be there!

All batteries have a limited cycle life. if you discharge 100% to 0% (100% Depth Of Discharge) this could be from the 10's to 100's of cycles. Lead acid batteries will not last many cycles at all if used at 100%DOD. Nimh do not perform well at 100%DOD either, which is why the prius limits you to 40%DOD (between 80% and 40% SOC). Within that range you will get thousands of cycles. the car tries to keep the window even smaller, and prefers to maintain ~67% SOC. If operated within a tighter range you'll get tens of thousands of cycles. See the guy on Pchat whose Gen2 is just about to roll round 430,000 miles on original Battery.

Do i think anyone should worry about these things? not really. The will most likely be sold or develop some other fault or get written off before the Battery fails. From a techincal point of view, does it reduce the lifespan of the Battery? Yes.

[Glyyde]

I almost cycle through 2 bars and 5-6 bars twice a day, pretty much when I go to work and back home. Makes me wonder whether I should do as the other poster said, start the car and wait 1 min before driving. However, I presumed that will affect my efficiency as well? Sitting idle doing nothing?

[Grumpy Cabbie]

I do 10 hours a day in town. My HV SOC goes up and down more often than a lift at Bluewater Shopping Centre and does so 5 days a week. After 59k miles I can not detect any change in how the HV Battery operates.

If my HV can hack this hard life, then a normal private car driving to work and back should be absolutely fine. I personally believe the 'true' mileage of a taxi compared to a normal car is to double it. In other words I recon my car has had the life of 118k normal car miles already.

[Flaninacupboard]

Makes me wonder whether I should do as the other poster said, start the car and wait 1 min before driving. However, I presumed that will affect my efficiency as well? Sitting idle doing nothing?

Whether the vehicle is moving or not, the fuel burned in S1 is not doing anything other than spin the engine and heating it up. No power is transferred from engine to wheels. Once in S2 onward it is definitely better to be moving, and the car is free to chose to take power from the ICE or traction Battery or both.