All New Yaris

[Lancaster Rayleigh]

Hello guys!

I work at a Toyota Centre in Essex and would like to ask for some true and honest feedback on your views on the new 3rd Generation Yaris.

Now, from what I can gather, it is all well and good receiving information from critiques and journalists, but that, in my opinion, isn't accurate or entirely honest.

So who best to talk to than Yaris owners?

What I want to ask is...

1. What's your opion on the Yaris as a whole?
   
2. Have you actually physically seen/driven it yet?
   

And please be as detailed as you like.

Thanks guys!

[Madasafish]

I've seen three, two at our local dealers - Pinkstone Stoke on Trent and one outside Asda where Pinkstone held a Toyota demonstration.

I looked at the outside. Yawn.

I looked at the inside. Yawn.

I looked at the Brochure on Toyota's website..

I see no compelling reason to buy one. No USP, not outstanding features which make me want to buy one.

I might look at the hybrid when it comes out. But given the likely price, it is doubtful I would be able to afford one.

I would only buy a replacement car if it offered more comfort and significantly lower running costs. Otherwise it makes no sense to bother.

[Lancaster Rayleigh]

I've seen three, two at our local dealers - Pinkstone Stoke on Trent and one outside Asda where Pinkstone held a Toyota demonstration.

I looked at the outside. Yawn.

I looked at the inside. Yawn.

I looked at the Brochure on Toyota's website..

I see no compelling reason to buy one. No USP, not outstanding features which make me want to buy one.

I might look at the hybrid when it comes out. But given the likely price, it is doubtful I would be able to afford one.

I would only buy a replacement car if it offered more comfort and significantly lower running costs. Otherwise it makes no sense to bother.

Thank you for your feedback

[ph47mf]

good point on the USP. i used to own the first generation Yaris from new and it was one of the best if not the best hatchback at the time. it offers something different in comparison to others and a lot of people in my age group at the time (18-25) wanted one. This new one just doesn't seem very special. I haven't driven one but i have had a good look at one at my dealer before i bought another car. The new fiesta and Jazz are hard to beat.

[Lancaster Rayleigh]

good point on the USP. i used to own the first generation Yaris from new and it was one of the best if not the best hatchback at the time. it offers something different in comparison to others and a lot of people in my age group at the time (18-25) wanted one. This new one just doesn't seem very special. I haven't driven one but i have had a good look at one at my dealer before i bought another car. The new fiesta and Jazz are hard to beat.

It seems to be the general census about USP. Out of curiousity, what was it about the 1st Gen that made it special to you? As you know, we all look for different things in our cars.

[Madasafish]

I first drove a Mark 1 in 2000.

I liked :

the upright position.

the looks

the display - different and easy to see/use.

the boot space with folding rear seat.

At that time, the combination was unbeatable..

It was also far better than most of its rivals for economy.. and handling..

(the A class was horrible and expensive and a dog, the Fiesta was 10 years out of date, the Polo was small, the Corsa was .. just Vauxhall and the Jazz had a horrible ride on bad surfaces as did the later Audi A2).

Now there are lots of competitors. If Honda did a small diesel Jazz...

[Geoff Peace]

Hello guys!

I work at a Toyota Centre in Essex and would like to ask for some true and honest feedback on your views on the new 3rd Generation Yaris.

Now, from what I can gather, it is all well and good receiving information from critiques and journalists, but that, in my opinion, isn't accurate or entirely honest.

So who best to talk to than Yaris owners?

What I want to ask is...

1. What's your opion on the Yaris as a whole?
   
2. Have you actually physically seen/driven it yet?
   

And please be as detailed as you like.

My wife bought a new Yaris just over eight weeks ago the 1.33 TR model and she is delighted with it. She prevously had a 1 litre 2005 Yaris which had proved very reliable. The new car is obviously nippier, the boot is larger and the rear shelf seems to lift higher or something, anyway she finds it much easier to load the shopping at the supermarket. It drives well, is comfortable and very quiet. The only critisism my wife has is that the 30 m.p.h. mark on the speedometer could be clearer for speed limits, she liked the digital speedometer on the old Yaris. I just have two critisisms. There are two green arrow lights on the dash which flash to tell you to change gear up or down, after over fifty years of driving I do nor need to be told when to change gear! Also the clutch slave cylinder appears to be buried in the clutch bellhousing rather than externally as it was on the previous car, a pain to change if it leaks! As to the looks they are not very important to me as I think all modern cars look abominable rather like spaceships so I simply do not look! I would term the Yaris as a high performance car, the high performance part being its reiability, a large part of which I attribute to the high quality of the electrical connectors and terminals.

Regards Geoff Peace.

Thanks guys!

[Bos]

Hello guys!

I work at a Toyota Centre in Essex and would like to ask for some true and honest feedback on your views on the new 3rd Generation Yaris.

Now, from what I can gather, it is all well and good receiving information from critiques and journalists, but that, in my opinion, isn't accurate or entirely honest.

So who best to talk to than Yaris owners?

What I want to ask is...

1. What's your opion on the Yaris as a whole?
   
2. Have you actually physically seen/driven it yet?
   

And please be as detailed as you like.

Thanks guys!

I drove a 3 door in August and was not that impressed with it.

In my opinion it was not as nice to drive as the mark 2 Yaris. Although bigger it did not convince me that it was better, I think a retrograde step. i have owned Toyota's since the mid 70's but will definately NOT be buying this model. I think Toyota have missed a good opportunity to launch a competitive car but on both price and style they have missed out.

Before I get lambasted on here that is only my opinion, I'm sure there are a lot of others who will disagree!!

[avensis57tr]

To be fair after reading/ watching reviews was expecting to find the new Yaris horrible, the yaris is my mum's car and when the current one was in for a service had a look at the SR in the showroom.

Outside - really like the more aggressive front though the rear lights are a bit dull overall a bit more stylish. Also like the darker coloured alloys still think they could have put DRL's on somewhere but probably in the minority there. The burning red colour looks ace :)

Inside - Was expecting this to be biggest let down as supposed to be worse than current Yaris which has some horrible plastics on bottom of the doors and the glovebox. However I really liked it the texture looked a lot more expensive more like Avensis style as did the chrome touches, also the steering wheel and leather seats with the red stitching made it feel a lot more special. Though I do agree that the seating position doesn't feel like a Yaris feels a lot lower and more enclosed. Boot looks usefully bigger though keeping the sliding seats would have been a good idea, safety even better especially as you don't have to order VSC as it comes as standard which is good!

Not so impressed that the emissions are higher on manual 1.33, that you can't have climate control and rear electric windows on SR as an option or the leather on the T-spirit as an option as they would be the two trims that would be most likely to buy. Also can't there be a bit more excitment like a turbo or supercharged 1.33 with about 120-150bhp and less than 120g/km.

Not driven it as yet but hopefully may look at the 1.33 CVT in the next year or so to replace current Yaris as seems a bit more luxurious however will need to be a good deal on price or would look at another Fabia, an I20 or the new Aveo when it gets launched. I'm 24 and found it quite a nice car :). Hopefully the drive will be as good especially road noise which can be a bit intrusive in smaller cars.

I think Toyota need to be careful as the car is in such a competitive market its not the cheapest and others are just as reliable now.

[mrpj]

"USP"?

[Madasafish]

Unique Selling Point.

[Lorna2]

My opinion of the new Yaris - its brilliant!

I took the new Yaris out for a test drive a while back - I have to say I loved it :D I was really looking forward to seeing the reversing camera in action and it was great! It had 6 gears, my TR 1.0 has 5. I thought I would miss the sliding rear seats - but the boot is actually bigger. I really thought I’d miss the digital lit up screen for the speedometer etc, but not at all, with the new Touch and Go screen, it would be too fussy to have the other digital screen. The Yaris I test drove was the SR so it had a leather trim on the seats, rear privacy glass, and darkened alloys etc.

There was a T Spirit in the showroom with a panoramic roof, that was something else I was looking forward to seeing – very impressive.

Who said anything about 'cheap' plastics? The plastic in my 2008 Yaris looks good enough to me and in the new Yaris the plastic looks very smart, not at all cheap. I think the whole car has a really good quality finish, both inside and out. I liked the red stitching and the chrome trims and all the nice finishes inside. It was a pleasure to drive.

I would say the USP of my first Yaris was that it was such a different shape from any other car, so that was also my first Toyota. I liked it so much I just kept coming back for more. :) I'v had the MK 1 (T3) and MK2 Yaris TR. I've found them both to be great cars and know what my next car will be, the new Yaris of course

[Lorna2]

To be fair after reading/ watching reviews was expecting to find the new Yaris horrible, the yaris is my mum's car and when the current one was in for a service had a look at the SR in the showroom.

Outside - really like the more aggressive front though the rear lights are a bit dull overall a bit more stylish. Also like the darker coloured alloys still think they could have put DRL's on somewhere but probably in the minority there. The burning red colour looks ace :)

Inside - Was expecting this to be biggest let down as supposed to be worse than current Yaris which has some horrible plastics on bottom of the doors and the glovebox. However I really liked it the texture looked a lot more expensive more like Avensis style as did the chrome touches, also the steering wheel and leather seats with the red stitching made it feel a lot more special. Though I do agree that the seating position doesn't feel like a Yaris feels a lot lower and more enclosed. Boot looks usefully bigger though keeping the sliding seats would have been a good idea, safety even better especially as you don't have to order VSC as it comes as standard which is good!

Not so impressed that the emissions are higher on manual 1.33, that you can't have climate control and rear electric windows on SR as an option or the leather on the T-spirit as an option as they would be the two trims that would be most likely to buy. Also can't there be a bit more excitment like a turbo or supercharged 1.33 with about 120-150bhp and less than 120g/km.

Not driven it as yet but hopefully may look at the 1.33 CVT in the next year or so to replace current Yaris as seems a bit more luxurious however will need to be a good deal on price or would look at another Fabia, an I20 or the new Aveo when it gets launched. I'm 24 and found it quite a nice car :). Hopefully the drive will be as good especially road noise which can be a bit intrusive in smaller cars.

I think Toyota need to be careful as the car is in such a competitive market its not the cheapest and others are just as reliable now.

David, whatever you do, please, please don't buy a chevrolet Aveo. Its far from reliable. It will give you nothing but bother. I had a chevrolet matiz brand new,only kept just under a year as it was so bad,it was the worst car I have ever set foot in. A family member had a chevrolet lacetti estate and again it was always breaking down. I've seen quite a few chevrolet 4x4s only about 1 or 2 years old, with badly rusted exhausts, covered in big dots of rust like nothing I've seen before.

Out of a possible 5 euro ncap stars,the Matiz only had 3,then one of these was removed due to an unacceptably high risk of life-threatening injury to the driver's chest in a side impact.

The previous Aveo only got 2 ncap stars,then one was removed due to an unacceptably high risk of life-threatening injury to compression of the driver's chest in a frontal impact.

Kalos only got 3 stars

If thats what chevrolet have managed before, well I wouldn't have much confidence in anything else they make. David, buy something else, anything else

[Lancaster Rayleigh]

It is the old arguement from us in the sales office, the reason why Toyotas are more expensive is because you are buying higher quality and reliability. Now, I don't want all the horror stories coming out of the wood work because I know about the recalls Toyota have had over the past few years, BUT Toyota were very quick on any recalls that were to arise. Whereas other manufacturers were very slow.

As for the reason why the sliding rear seats were taken off was because you now have more leg room than if the seats were all the way back and more boot space than if the seats were all the way forward.

The emmissions are higher also because Toyota have left out the Start/Stop technology as it was found that most customers were overing this function and Toyota thought it was pointless putting it back in and pass the cost on to customers.

[mrpj]

Regarding "cheap" plastics. It's not how it looks Lorna, any one can make most things look good. By "cheap" I would say how it feels, behaves, it's durability and how sturdy it is. The reason why there are so many interior rattles and creaks in some cars is because of "cheap" plastic put together like a Lego set! You've only got to tap trim gently with a knuckle to hear it's quality or lack of.

The Yaris (Mk2) I had for a short time from new had, in my opinion, a "cheap" interior. It spent a full day at the supplying dealers to try and sort out the numerous rattles and creaks to no avail in spite of copious amounts of foam packing being stuffed everywhere. Whether customers are more gullible these days I don't know? There seems to be more acceptance of shoddy products.

As for the gimmiky reversing camera, a driver should be using their eyes when reversing. I would bet that in any car with a reversing camera you will see the driver just staring into the screen when reversing and paying no attention to their surroundings. A dangerous accessory I think. Possibly useful just to glance at to check if there is anything that's not been seen. I think we all know that's not how it will be used though.

Sorry Scott, I can't agree about higher quality, Toyota are just selling on past reputation and costing accordingly for maximum profit.

[avensis57tr]

I certainly wouldn't rate toyota quality any higher than other manufacturers these days everything is to a cost just how Mercedes ect trade on being premium and quality and are some of the worse cars ever for being unreliable I think a lot of manufacturers build and trade on the halo of past achievements and accentuate this with clever marketing. Having said that I do think that the MK3 interior is a big step up over the MK2. I stopped a lot of the rattles in the current yaris by sound proofing and carpet lining all the glove boxes and door bins plus under boot floor makes it all feel a lot more expensive shame Toyota couldn't spend an extra few quid per car and do this to start with.

Point taken about stop start being removed but I'm sure that with some trickery like a different engine map they could have achieved 120g/km.

Hi Lorna point taken about the Aveo although it wasn't the current one we were looking at was the new one which is based on the next gen corsa http://www.autocar.co.uk/CarReviews/FirstDrives/Chevrolet-Aveo-1.2-LS/257171/. Still think that Yaris will be what we change for but a lot can happen in a year so will see what else is around.

[Cyker]

I think you may be taking Toyota's quality for granted a bit; Toyota's problem is their strengths are in stuff you don't normally think about.

Cars we've owned in the past few years have been a Merc E-Class, a Focus, my old Fiesta and my Yaris and out of the three the only one that hasn't had any stupid niggly problems has been the Yaris.

My Fiesta had a persistent coolant leak which we never found the source of, and the spark plugs would weld themselves to the engine unless I changed them frequently. The clutch wore out at an alarming rate and the the brake discs were wearing out at the same rate as the pads!

The Merc E-class had a problem where all the lights on the right hand side of the car from head lamp to brake light would fail prematurely and require the bulbs replaced almost every year, washer pump failed and was replaced three times, and the electrics in general were just shot; Sometimes it wouldn't recognise one of the keys so we'd have to alternate, and instruments would randomly stop and start working (Speedo, fuel gauge, dash illumination etc.)

The Focus had a problem with the dashboard where it would stop working intermittently, and eventually failed completely. This is a known fault that any have had, but Ford refused to do a recall and it cost a couple hundred quid for them to replace the dash with a replacement which they couldn't guarantee wouldn't fail again!

My Yaris has had (so far... :D) no real problems at all - Electrics haven't skipped a beat, engine's been solid, bits of the bodywork haven't rusted up and fallen off. Solid :)

The new one is dull as ditchwater, but I bet it'll have fewer problems than many of its rivals in the long run!

(Maybe in the short run 'tho while they work the 'new model' kinks out ;))

[cruiser007]

Hi,

I haven't seen the new Yaris at the dealer yet but I have examined many of the detailed photo's of it on car websites and my honest opinion of it so far is that Toyota have ruined it, this is because the centrally located digital dashboard has been moved back behind the wheel which is old fashioned and not as easy to see. The centrally located digital dash on my yaris is fantasic and was one of the "cool" features that helped me decide to purchase a Yaris. The new Yaris just looks like any over small car design now and a new Yaris probably will not be my next purchase as there are so many other similar cars to choose from. I do like the reversing camera though, an idea nicked from the Nissan Primera ;)

[Lorna2]

Regarding "cheap" plastics. It's not how it looks Lorna, any one can make most things look good. By "cheap" I would say how it feels, behaves, it's durability and how sturdy it is. The reason why there are so many interior rattles and creaks in some cars is because of "cheap" plastic put together like a Lego set! You've only got to tap trim gently with a knuckle to hear it's quality or lack of.

The Yaris (Mk2) I had for a short time from new had, in my opinion, a "cheap" interior. It spent a full day at the supplying dealers to try and sort out the numerous rattles and creaks to no avail in spite of copious amounts of foam packing being stuffed everywhere. Whether customers are more gullible these days I don't know? There seems to be more acceptance of shoddy products.

As for the gimmiky reversing camera, a driver should be using their eyes when reversing. I would bet that in any car with a reversing camera you will see the driver just staring into the screen when reversing and paying no attention to their surroundings. A dangerous accessory I think. Possibly useful just to glance at to check if there is anything that's not been seen. I think we all know that's not how it will be used though.

Sorry Scott, I can't agree about higher quality, Toyota are just selling on past reputation and costing accordingly for maximum profit.

I would actually say there is less acceptance of shoddy products than years ago,but that's just my opinion. I know I certainly would complain if I needed to about any product.

Re your comment about the plastics- my dash plastic feels ok to me and has been durable enough to look as good as new.

Re the reversing camera - Its there as an additional tool,like checking in the mirrors. The reversing camera will show the blind spot behind the car, for example so drivers can avoid hitting the dreaded pole in the carpark,or if a dog ran out behind the car, and so on.

Re your comment to Scott,where you said Toyota are "selling on just past reputation", I must disagree. When I bought my first Toyota it was not based on reputation. I had always liked the look of the yaris so I took it for a test drive and thought it was great so I bought it, with absolutely no consideration of 'reputation' as I did not think of the reputation of cars then. What kept me coming back to Toyota since is nothing to do with Toyota's reputation either, I buy what I like and know to be good, I couldn't care less about 'reputation'

[Lorna2]

Hi,

I haven't seen the new Yaris at the dealer yet but I have examined many of the detailed photo's of it on car websites and my honest opinion of it so far is that Toyota have ruined it, this is because the centrally located digital dashboard has been moved back behind the wheel which is old fashioned and not as easy to see. The centrally located digital dash on my yaris is fantasic and was one of the "cool" features that helped me decide to purchase a Yaris. The new Yaris just looks like any over small car design now and a new Yaris probably will not be my next purchase as there are so many other similar cars to choose from. I do like the reversing camera though, an idea nicked from the Nissan Primera ;)

I thought the same about the New Yaris not having the digital dash,when I first heard they were doing away with it and again when I saw the photos. But when I took one for a test drive, I changed my mind I found the new design worked very well, and I didn't miss the digital dash one bit (and me another one who loved the digital dash and always thought of it as a cool feature). Now that they have added the Touch & Go screen, it would be too much to have the digital dash, it would look too cluttered.Maybe you might change your mind too if you have a look at one ;)

[Red diesel]

It is the old arguement from us in the sales office, the reason why Toyotas are more expensive is because you are buying higher quality and reliability. Now, I don't want all the horror stories coming out of the wood work because I know about the recalls Toyota have had over the past few years, BUT Toyota were very quick on any recalls that were to arise. Whereas other manufacturers were very slow.

As for the reason why the sliding rear seats were taken off was because you now have more leg room than if the seats were all the way back and more boot space than if the seats were all the way forward.

The emmissions are higher also because Toyota have left out the Start/Stop technology as it was found that most customers were overing this function and Toyota thought it was pointless putting it back in and pass the cost on to customers.

A very valid argument back in the 1980s and 90s with cars such as the Carina IIs and Es plus the E92, E101 and E111 Corollas and of course the Starlets and Mark 1 Yarises. But cars such as Fords and Kias are so much better now then they used to be, but Toyotas have slipped back somewhat. So the question is - is that argument still valid - ie a Toyota is better than (for example) a Ford or Kia - now theres an interesting question. Feel free to use your best Sales pitch to show us that Toyota is stil offering quality and reliability at levels better than their opposition.

Red diesel

[Lancaster Rayleigh]

It is the old arguement from us in the sales office, the reason why Toyotas are more expensive is because you are buying higher quality and reliability. Now, I don't want all the horror stories coming out of the wood work because I know about the recalls Toyota have had over the past few years, BUT Toyota were very quick on any recalls that were to arise. Whereas other manufacturers were very slow.

As for the reason why the sliding rear seats were taken off was because you now have more leg room than if the seats were all the way back and more boot space than if the seats were all the way forward.

The emmissions are higher also because Toyota have left out the Start/Stop technology as it was found that most customers were overing this function and Toyota thought it was pointless putting it back in and pass the cost on to customers.

A very valid argument back in the 1980s and 90s with cars such as the Carina IIs and Es plus the E92, E101 and E111 Corollas and of course the Starlets and Mark 1 Yarises. But cars such as Fords and Kias are so much better now then they used to be, but Toyotas have slipped back somewhat. So the question is - is that argument still valid - ie a Toyota is better than (for example) a Ford or Kia - now theres an interesting question. Feel free to use your best Sales pitch to show us that Toyota is stil offering quality and reliability at levels better than their opposition.

Red diesel

I think you misunderstand the reason as to why I'm here. I'm not here to sell Toyotas, this is after all the Toyota Owners Club. Nor am I here to say that Toyota is the better than any other manufacturer out there, as I come from a long line of Ford owners. However, yes I do sell Toyotas and I do beleive in the product I am selling.

Now, when you take into account the surveys and research regarding service and reliability, Toyota are still holding their ground. The only reason as to why they have dropped in recent years would be because of the unfortunate recalls.

I can't speak for every Toyota Centre out there nor can I speak for every Toyota Salesman either, but I know that my customers receive the best service I can provide. Regardless of how much profit is made from a unit, as I know the general view of most Salesmen.

So my question would be, how is it that you feel that Toyota have lost their touch? And in what way?

[Lorna2]

Hi Scott. I don't think Toyota have lost their touch at all.

(but I'm sure someone will be along in a minute to disagree with me )

[Lancaster Rayleigh]

I think you're right Lorna

I knew that I would get some grief on here being a dreaded Salesman :D

[Red diesel]

It is the old arguement from us in the sales office, the reason why Toyotas are more expensive is because you are buying higher quality and reliability. Now, I don't want all the horror stories coming out of the wood work because I know about the recalls Toyota have had over the past few years, BUT Toyota were very quick on any recalls that were to arise. Whereas other manufacturers were very slow.

As for the reason why the sliding rear seats were taken off was because you now have more leg room than if the seats were all the way back and more boot space than if the seats were all the way forward.

The emmissions are higher also because Toyota have left out the Start/Stop technology as it was found that most customers were overing this function and Toyota thought it was pointless putting it back in and pass the cost on to customers.

A very valid argument back in the 1980s and 90s with cars such as the Carina IIs and Es plus the E92, E101 and E111 Corollas and of course the Starlets and Mark 1 Yarises. But cars such as Fords and Kias are so much better now then they used to be, but Toyotas have slipped back somewhat. So the question is - is that argument still valid - ie a Toyota is better than (for example) a Ford or Kia - now theres an interesting question. Feel free to use your best Sales pitch to show us that Toyota is stil offering quality and reliability at levels better than their opposition.

Red diesel

I think you misunderstand the reason as to why I'm here. I'm not here to sell Toyotas, this is after all the Toyota Owners Club. Nor am I here to say that Toyota is the better than any other manufacturer out there, as I come from a long line of Ford owners. However, yes I do sell Toyotas and I do beleive in the product I am selling.

Now, when you take into account the surveys and research regarding service and reliability, Toyota are still holding their ground. The only reason as to why they have dropped in recent years would be because of the unfortunate recalls.

I can't speak for every Toyota Centre out there nor can I speak for every Toyota Salesman either, but I know that my customers receive the best service I can provide. Regardless of how much profit is made from a unit, as I know the general view of most Salesmen.

So my question would be, how is it that you feel that Toyota have lost their touch? And in what way?

Oops - my apologies - i really didn't intend for you to get the impression i thought you were here trying to sell cars, no the thing was that you said your old argument in your sales office was that the reason Toyotas were more expensive was because "you are buying higher quality and reliability". I made a mistake in the phrasing of the question - ie inviting your to make a sales pitch, i should merely have invited you to put forward an argument as to why you think that Toyota buyers were buying higher quality and reliability compared to other makes.

So why do i think Toyota have lost their way - well let me see now - their reliability in my view isn't as good as it used to be - people

are having issues with the cars that they didn't have in years gone by. Theres the VVTI oil burning issue, the 2.2 head gasket situation, the various quality issues that seem to occour on Aurises. Leaks on the Aygos, Landcruiser and 3.0 Hilux injector issues. And it seems that in general Toyota quality slipped in the last 5 to 10 years as they strived to be number 1. That last point i believe was conceded by no less than one of the Toyota bosses i believe when the American authurities were invistigating the trottle issues back in 2010.

Also while Toyota were slipping - manufacturers such as Ford and Kia have being making massive gains in reliability and overall quality. It is

possible of course that Toyota are still ahead of Ford on quality but me being me - id rather support a manufacturer thats improving their

quality rather than one that is slipping even if the slipping manufacturer is still a little better than the improving manufacturer.

I know Ford aren't perfect by any means - they have also had issues with their cars at various points - but the point id make is that if you lined up a 1991 Sierra up againsed a 2011 Mondeo - the Mondeo is a much more reliable car. However due to the quality issues of recent years

we will have to wait and see if the 2011 Avensis is a more reliable car than its 1991 Carina II equivelent.

I do agree that Toyota dealer service is superior to Fords mind you - although the Mr Fords down my way aren't too bad to deal with actually

All my opinion of course - and my sincerest apologies for the grief - and i do respect you for coming on to hear the customers feedback and things like that . No hard feelings i hope .

Red diesel