Verso T180 2.2D Acceleration Issue

[Uncle Buck]

Yeah, I'm beginning to wish I'd stuck with my 1.8 petrol Nissan. It did just as much to the gallon, had no lag, didn't cost a fortune to service or fix & it was uber reliable. I only changed it for 2 reasons ; more MPG because of the mileage I can run up & a newer car with fewer miles. It seems I made a very costly mistake on this one . . . . I still like the Auris, but it hasn't made financial sense to change it. Plus the thought of receiving one of those huge bills others are being faced with . . . . . :o

[ricky_k]

Hi all,

Thanks for the further comments. I am learning more and more about the perils of owning a Diesel :-(

So now here is the latest on my car....Currie Motors have now had my car since 12th December. I was out of the country on vacation and they called me up and told me that they suspect that the car has been burning oil and this has caused a large build-up of carbon in the engine, and this will require an engine replacement. To be honest, now I think about it, for about 3 years now (out of the 5 years I have owned this car), I have had to top-up the car with oil between services, but I thought that this was a normal thing. Do you think that this build up of carbon in the engine due to the burning of oil could have been also a catalyst for the premature lifespan of the DPF? Should a DPF really go in just 1.5 years? Toyota UK had offered a part payment of the DPF because of the age of the car, but surely now the underlying issue is the burning of oil.

Currie Motors indicated that town driving would have been a factor for carbon build-up in the engine also. BUT time and time again I have told them that my regular route is 15 miles on the M4/M25 each way, and I give the car a hard run. Surely that would raise the temperature enough to burn off carbon deposits (at least in the DPF)?

It surely cannot be normal for a car with only 62K miles to have an engine replacement?

What advice do you have? Do you believe I have a good case to argue this with Toyota to pay for the full cost of the engine replacement and the DPF?

Regards,

Ricky.

[cabcurtains]

Hi Ricky,

Am glad you have some progress albeit not great news, i would drop Ormi a PM as he has been doing quite a few 180's recently. If the carbon issue has caused the DPF to fail some extra info wont hurt, you need to be able to confidently explain this isn't a one off.

I wonder if 15mls isnt enough for the D-Cat?

CC

[Uncle Buck]

Ricky - I think you have a perfectly good case for at least part payment towards the replacement engine. I now think Toyota are guilty of putting an engine into volume production which is not of satisfactory quality. Just because it is using newish technology does not make it ok for engines to fail at such low mileages. For a DPF to fail after 1.5 years is ridiculous - I don't know a single person who would accept that as reasonable, especially at such vast cost.

Since joining this forum & club, I have been genuinely shocked at the number of very expensive parts which are failing regularly on certain Toyota models - mainly Auris, Avensis & RAV4's. Dual Mass Flywheels - FAIL, DPFs - FAIL, head gaskets - FAIL, fuel injectors - FAIL, EGR valves - blocked up, etc, etc. For a manufacturer with the 'perceived' quality status of Toyota it's a sad state of affairs.

I know I will now get blasted by a few members for saying all that, but it's time this lid was lifted & poor owners were not fleeced at every pillar for a car 'that is not of merchantible quality'. If you a buy a used car with mega miles & an incomplete history, then you can only expect some things to go wrong or need parts replaced. But most of these cars seem to be bought at dealers with reasonable mileages & ful service historys. I'm well aware that Toyota have offered the extended warranty for hd gskt failures & that is very good service, but so they should for goodness sake ! It's admitting there is a fault with their cars & it's not satisfactory for a blameless owner to be coughing up thousands of pounds to fix it. But what about the DPFs, the DMFs & the injectors ? For them to be failing right, left & centre at well below 100k mls is not acceptable either.

No wonder the T/SR180 (in particular) is no longer in production, it would cost Toyota millions of pounds to fix/replace all these known & widely spread faults.

Dale - if a 15 mile commuting trip (non-urban) is not good enough to warm up the DPF, then hundreds of us will suffer the same fate as Ricky. I have an SR180 & do a 5 day commute on A-roads to work of 12.5 mls each way. The temp gauge does reach normal on the way & I do accelerate briskly a few times to give the exhaust a chance to 'clean out'. This is followed by a w/end drive of 75 mls each way, a mixture of dual carriageway & 'A' road. Surely that should be more than sufficient for any modern turbo-diesel ?

[dervdave]

I have an SR180 & do a 5 day commute on A-roads to work of 12.5 mls each way. The temp gauge does reach normal on the way & I do accelerate briskly a few times to give the exhaust a chance to 'clean out'. This is followed by a w/end drive of 75 mls each way, a mixture of dual carriageway & 'A' road. Surely that should be more than sufficient for any modern turbo-diesel ?

You would like to think so and in a perfect world it probably would be sufficient but it only takes something like a duff sensor to knock the whole process out of kilter

[cabcurtains]

Dale - if a 15 mile commuting trip (non-urban) is not good enough to warm up the DPF, then hundreds of us will suffer the same fate as Ricky. I have an SR180 & do a 5 day commute on A-roads to work of 12.5 mls each way. The temp gauge does reach normal on the way & I do accelerate briskly a few times to give the exhaust a chance to 'clean out'. This is followed by a w/end drive of 75 mls each way, a mixture of dual carriageway & 'A' road. Surely that should be more than sufficient for any modern turbo-diesel ?

I can't answer the question, all i know is DPF's are not simple devices and they cause a lot of issues, 15 miles is not very far especially when you read the below; i would refer you to my previous post on here about modern diesels, i do believe most DPF vehicles used on short journeys will cause issues eventually. I never had any issue with last DPF car, but i do 45,000 miles a year mostly up and down the motorway which is what the DPF needs.

AA experience

We're seeing some evidence of DPF systems failing to regenerate even on cars used mainly on motorways.

On cars with a very high sixth gear the engine revs may be too low to generate sufficient exhaust temperature for regeneration. Occasional harder driving in lower gears should be sufficient to burn off the soot in such cases.

With this type of DPF regeneration will be initiated by the ECU every 300 miles or so depending on vehicle use and will take 5 to 10 minutes to complete

[ricky_k]

Hi all,

The technician I am talking to at my local Toyota garage said exactly the same as the AA quote. He told me that its not about mileage per-se. More its about high rev driving to generate the temperature required for regeneration. He told me that I should be driving the car hard in 5th gear at high revs for a long journey rather than driving in 6th gear.

I do see the logic here.

In fact, I wonder about when I owned the car between December 2006 (when I bought it) to May 2009. Then I had a job in Maidenhead and was driving ONLY on Motorway and Dual Carriage Way and the journey was 25 miles each way. Then I changed my job in June 2009, and my journey was a mix of side roads and motorway driving (15 miles each way). The DPF went in June 2010. May be (as said) the 25 miles was enough to regenerate the CAT, but the 15 miles simply was not and that's why the DPF got blocked in June 2010. and now again in December 2011?

My local Toyota Garage now have revised their initial report and have indicated that they are not sure if its oil that is burning. All they can say is that parts of the engine require replacing due to carbon build-up.

As indicated already by Dale, I have a number of options going forward. I cannot see Toyota paying for the entire cost of the repairs. Also, I cannot see Toyota Used Car Sales agreeing to PX my car for a different car. It seems as though I either go down the Diesel specialist route or I pay for the repairs and keep the car (which will finally go again). I am thinking about the PX route. To be honest, I do not like any other MPV and would rather stick with a Toyota, but do you think that the new Diesel Versos will not experience the same problem?

Do you think its best to get a 1.6 or 1.8 Petrol Verso (the new shape) - about 1-2 years old?

My car should get a good price. It comes with all mod cons, front and rear cameras, in-built Satellite Navigation.

I am seriously thinking of getting rid and getting a petrol Verso. Do you think this is a good option? Any experiences/comments on petrol Versos?

Regards,

Ricky.

[dervdave]

I do not like any other MPV and would rather stick with a Toyota, but do you think that the new Diesel Versos will not experience the same problem?

Do you think its best to get a 1.6 or 1.8 Petrol Verso (the new shape) - about 1-2 years old?

Why Ricky its only a new Verso 2.0d that has a DPF, a 1 or 2 yr old one doesn`t.

Buy one from April 2010 and you`ll have the benefit of the remainder of the 5 yr warranty.

!Removed! good motors

[cabcurtains]

I'm always thinking about what to do next with this scenario, luckily for me but unluckily for Ricky ;) its actually happening before my eyes :)

A Petrol Verso would not drive well IMO, the weight combined with the lack of torque isn't a good combo. CC Edit, i've never driven one so this is all theory!

I'm with Dave on this, find a 2.0d T-Spirit (assuming you like toys) thats post April 2010 and relax at the thought of the 5yr guarantee. I would also think the 2.0d will be less complex than the older 180 as Mr T has had 5yrs to sort the whole D-Cat/DPF system.

Re the PX, i would find a car at a dealer that doesn't know your car and swap it without a care in the world. Its buyer beware on both sides :D just makes sure you have any warning lights out . They might not even bother driving the car.

In the days i sold cars sometimes they had gears missing or odo's that didnt work, write off's, photocopied tax discs etc etc

[ricky_k]

Thanks for the advice

Thing is that a used Toyota 2.0 D-4D T-Spirit Trim (not the D-CAT) seems to be retailing at a cool £22,500

I'd rather get my brother-in-laws almost new Merc E-class 350 with leather seats (its a diesel also, automatic), he is thinking of selling that to me for £20,000.

Thing is I was spoilt with the cameras in the car and the in-built navigation, both I rely on (don't like to have the portable SAT NAV).

The in-car entertainment DVD system is pants. My kids get headaches when they watch it.

Anyway, back to reality, I am hoping for Santa to bring me some good news for my existing car. May be Toyota will get the message with my constant emails to them everyday and they will pay for all the repairs, but then again pigs may fly.

I will (of course) keep you all updated with the news of my car.

Cheers. Have a good Christmas!

Ricky.

[duncerduncs]

A Petrol Verso would not drive well IMO, the weight combined with the lack of torque isn't a good combo. CC Edit, i've never driven one so this is all theory!

I think you need to drive one to find out! The 1.8 petrol loves to be revved and off a standing start will show the 2.0 diesel a clean pair of heels

It's just a shame that Toyota stopped selling the petrol engine in T Spirit trim. There is the odd one about, you'll need to personalise the used car search on Toyota's website to find them.

I'm also getting around 38mpg (I always work it out!) which I'm pretty sure is better than some members who have the 2.2 DCAT automatic.

[dervdave]

I think you need to drive one to find out! The 1.8 petrol loves to be revved and off a standing start will show the 2.0 diesel a clean pair of heels

`FIGHT` !!!!

[cabcurtains]

I think you need to drive one to find out! The 1.8 petrol loves to be revved and off a standing start will show the 2.0 diesel a clean pair of heels

`FIGHT` !!!!

Verso's at Santa Pod, more chance of a politican telling the truth

[Mistermena]

I think you need to drive one to find out! The 1.8 petrol loves to be revved and off a standing start will show the 2.0 diesel a clean pair of heels

`FIGHT` !!!!

LMAO!

[ricky_k]

Hi all,

I said I would report back and I pleased to say that it is good news. Initially Toyota UK said that they would contribute £600 to the DPF (not the labour to fit it) and they were still assessing the replacements of parts, but I remonstrated with them about this and said that I was not prepared to pay any of the costs. Got a call yesterday. The Toyota garage said that they replaced the damaged parts of the engine under warranty and also the DPF free of charge. All they require from me is a signature for the warranty claim. Seems that Toyota UK decided to allow my repairs to be done under warranty. This is such a relief. I pick up the car tommorrow. I will try and get some more information tomorrow regarding exactly what parts required replacing when I pick up the car.

Now the question is: What to do with my car? Will this happen again, say at the end of 2013?

Cheers,

Ricky.

[dervdave]

Now the question is: What to do with my car? Will this happen again, say at the end of 2013?

Good news Ricky, ask them about a recurrence but even still the end of 2013 is 2yrs away

[cabcurtains]

Looks like a result

In 2013 the car will be outside the extended warranty for the carbon clogging/oil consumption issues so it would seem unlikely any goodwill would be available.

[ricky_k]

Picked the car up now, no one really there to advise me what work was actually done on the car. The brief report I received said:

“Vehicle must be run in as new for about 1000 miles at moderate revs; the oil must be checked daily and topped up if required using the correct type of oil; the engine number has changed to XXXXXX; you must inform the DVLA about this change”.

Do you think I should be using V-power fuel, or adding the BG244 additive to prevent this clogging in future?

Regards,

Ricky.

[cabcurtains]

Hi Ricky,

It would seem totally sensible to me if you did the following:

1. Run it on V-Power

2. Check the EGR Valve every 6mths, clean if required.

3. Tip a tin of additive in every 10k

4. If possible try and drive for 15 mins over 40MPH without stopping i.e on a motorway or long stretch of dual carriageway. This is the besy way to try and force the DPF to perform a regen cycle. Perhaps weekly if you don't do this as part of your normal journey's.

Anymore preventative action would be bordering on unreasonable to me.

CC

[Mistermena]

Great result mate! Well happy for you And well done Mr T in the end

[ricky_k]

Thanks to you all for your sound advice over the past month. Mr T came up trumps in the end, and I most grateful for that.

One question: I am trying to verify the new engine code. The report from the garage has an engine code of six digits, but on my V5C, the (old) engine number says 2AD5020972. I am not sure if the six digits they gave me is the complete engine number. I could not find the engine number on the engine block when I looked.

Obviously 2AD is the engine type, but they there are 7 numbers after that, and the garage just gave a straight six numbers.

Any ideas?

Cheers,

Ricky.

[Chaz b]

This has made very interesting reading for me as I have just brought a T180 having sold my Audi A6 because the particulate filter clogged up and blocked the cat at 70K and the price of repair was more than I was prepared to pay. Looks like out of the frying pan and into the fire! My question is how you persuaded Toyota to pay for the repair given the warranty was long expired as it never occurred to me to contact Audi for my 2006 car. I would like to know in case the same happens on my 2006 Verso.

Thanks

Charles

[gug]

This has made very interesting reading for me as I have just brought a T180 having sold my Audi A6 because the particulate filter clogged up and blocked the cat at 70K and the price of repair was more than I was prepared to pay. Looks like out of the frying pan and into the fire! My question is how you persuaded Toyota to pay for the repair given the warranty was long expired as it never occurred to me to contact Audi for my 2006 car. I would like to know in case the same happens on my 2006 Verso.

Thanks

Charles

mine went in couple of weeks ago for the dreaded HG failure, phonecall yesterday new engines arrived on a 08 with 74k on it, boy was i sh*tt*ng it when i had to sign the form to say i could be liable for costs, but all being done FOC

[cabcurtains]

The 2.2d has a known issue with Oil Consumption, have a search in the RAV or Avensis forums and you will find some monster threads. This appears to have prompted Mr T to offer some superb goodwill when really they didnt need to.

Highly unlikely the germans would ever do anything similiar!

Taf might be along later to offer a more detailed explanation.

[Zishan]

Hi,

Just finsished reading the above and sadly have to add my TC Verso T180 to the list. Its a 55 Reg and for some reason in 1st and 2nd gear, there is just no power at all until it reaches above 2000rpm which you can then feel the power kicking in. I took this to Mr T and explained them my situation. Also presented Mr T the Out of Hours Warranty Guidelines. Mr T took car in and did a visual check and a Test Drive and advised me to continue driving this for about 600-700 miles just to check Oil Consumption. This I did and had to topup once but on 2 occassions I noticed alot of white smoke.

Anyway back on the phone to Mr T and explained that I did as you told me and also noticed alot of white smoke on 2 occassions. They advised will need to get EGR and Manifold cleaned out and are racking up a bill as to how much this will cost me. Should I not be covered under the warranty??? My T180 has only done 67,000 miles and has been well serviced by Mr T.

Any help with this will be much appreciated.