Bmw And Toyota Link Up

[Manxrav]

I read with interest that Toyota and BMW are linking up. BMW supplying 4 and 6 cylinder common-rail diesel engines to Toyota in exchange for Toyotas knowledge on electric powered car technology. I would think this would be beneficial to both parties. Whilst Toyota diesels are excellent,bar the odd blip, the BMW 2ltr and 3ltr diesels are probably the best on the planet at the moment. This was an headline in this weeks Autocar by the way.

Regards Clare

[Joylove]

Very interesting. I think they also both got into bed with Nokia for connected drive/phone integration over Meego and mirrorlink.

Here's the article on diesels.

http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsArticle/AllCars/260263/

[firemac]

I read with interest that Toyota and BMW are linking up. BMW supplying 4 and 6 cylinder common-rail diesel engines to Toyota in exchange for Toyotas knowledge on electric powered car technology. I would think this would be beneficial to both parties. Whilst Toyota diesels are excellent,bar the odd blip, the BMW 2ltr and 3ltr diesels are probably the best on the planet at the moment. This was an headline in this weeks Autocar by the way.

Regards Clare

Interesting if true & agree that Toyota can only gain by having access to the best diesel engines around at the moment (assuming BMW don't restrict the spec). If it's from Autocar however, I'd have my doubts; they've not been paragons of accuracy lately on several issues lately, so much so that I've cancelled my long-standing sub. A shame really as I reckoned they were the last quality motor mag left but now they seem to be going the way of all the other comics.....

[anchorman]

They make good performing engines but they are no more flawless than the engine we know.

I'm open minded for now.

[firemac]

They make good performing engines but they are no more flawless than the engine we know.

I'm open minded for now.

I've owned both & I have to say that I'd have the BMW diesel over Mr.T's. Not that Toyota's is a bad engine but BMW's is in a different league to everyone else's - IMVHO!

[redlew]

Worst car I have had was a 1990 BMW 3 series-couldn't corner and cost a fortune to service even at non frachise specialist garages. I swore I would never have another BMW and having been in others since I fail to see the attraction .

[Manxrav]

It,s all about the Badge!!!!

Regards Clare

[Joylove]

It,s all about the badge!!!!

Regards Clare

Not for me, as an avid modifier the availability of compatible parts for the BMW on eBay from other models, the quality of the plastics that don't snap when you dismantle them (looking at you here Toyota), the way they designed a data bus that worked on models for features 20 year before they became available, the availability of full schematics and diagnostic software online, the pages and pages of photo DIYs, the online parts catalogues, the online parts, the wealth of second source and OEM parts, the future-proofed wiring splices, and the reliability all make them a great car to own for me. My BMW cost £1850, so I don't think it says anything vulgar about my finances and it's quite !Removed!, and I couldn't care less what people think.

Unfortunate thing for all diesels, not just BMW, is the constant drive for a highscore MPG figure and more and more stringent emissions regulations. It means they keep adding in new technologies that only last a few years before they are replaced. Swirl flaps, high pressure fuel lines, high pressure fuel pumps, DMFs, variable geometry turbos, EGR valves, common rail injection; all these things are just a few years old, and relatively new compared to the petrol engine which is largely lagging behind on the developments.

Diesels are no longer the reliable workhorse they were in the 80's when PSA was making agricultural but bulletproof ~90BHP diesels. I certainly wouldn't want to own a modern diesel out of warranty. £2k for a turbo and £1600 for a clutch soon wipes out the fuel savings.

[shcm]

It,s all about the badge!!!!

Regards Clare

Absolutely Clare. From first hand inside experience I agree.

the way they designed a data bus that worked on models......

....the typically over complicated way in which the controller software was written.............

"They designed" is stretching it a bit. They might have ideas, but their suppliers will have done 95% of the donkey and got the thing to the level required for mass production.

Anyway, interesting one. Love 'em or hate 'em Mr B stealthily raped ideas from a certain 4x4 maker in the mid nineties.

Some Japanese companies, when they don't have a presence in some markets look for a partner. Establish themselves in that market with the partner, then drop the partner. I'm not saying it happens so much with the car companies themselves, but it's not unknown for component suppliers. Not sure really what either have to gain..........

[firemac]

It,s all about the badge!!!!

Regards Clare

There was a time when I would have agreed with you, Clare. However, having had a 520d M-Sport Touring that returned 40 mpg, driven hard, never needed to go near the dealer and hauled everything thrown at it, I'm convinced that they ain't joking when they claim it's the ultimate driving machine. Absolutely sublime.

Having said that, I also agree with Joylove that diesels are becoming way too complicated & I would not have one other than new with a warranty - any make. I got rid of my LC4 just before I had to start messing with the injector issue. My current VVTi's may not be brilliant on mpg but they're otherwise bullet-proof.

[Big Kev]

I read with interest that Toyota and BMW are linking up. BMW supplying 4 and 6 cylinder common-rail diesel engines to Toyota in exchange for Toyotas knowledge on electric powered car technology. I would think this would be beneficial to both parties. Whilst Toyota diesels are excellent,bar the odd blip, the BMW 2ltr and 3ltr diesels are probably the best on the planet at the moment. This was an headline in this weeks Autocar by the way.

Regards Clare

Interesting if true & agree that Toyota can only gain by having access to the best diesel engines around at the moment (assuming BMW don't restrict the spec). If it's from Autocar however, I'd have my doubts; they've not been paragons of accuracy lately on several issues lately, so much so that I've cancelled my long-standing sub. A shame really as I reckoned they were the last quality motor mag left but now they seem to be going the way of all the other comics.....

Absolutely Jimbob...me tae....have cancelled ma subscription to 14 golf magazines, coz I am still playing rubbish,......que....?

Kev the Hooker

[Joylove]

the way they designed a data bus that worked on models......

....the typically over complicated way in which the controller software was written.............

"They designed" is stretching it a bit. They might have ideas, but their suppliers will have done 95% of the donkey and got the thing to the level required for mass production.

ECU work would have been tendered out against a design brief for the interface; they have modules from Philips, Bosch, Lear, Siemens, VDO, Motormeter and more all supporting the bus protocol. It was also neatly compatible with the upcoming ISO9141 interfaces with the removal of a couple of header bytes in the data packet. All work started in the early 90's when RS232 was king, and it was still operating and expandable until 2007. It's not cold fusion, but it's pretty remarkable nonetheless.

Anyway, interesting one. Love 'em or hate 'em Mr B stealthily raped ideas from a certain 4x4 maker in the mid nineties.

Some Japanese companies, when they don't have a presence in some markets look for a partner. Establish themselves in that market with the partner, then drop the partner. I'm not saying it happens so much with the car companies themselves, but it's not unknown for component suppliers. Not sure really what either have to gain..........

They paid for the X5 design and the MINI brand fair and square, and then some. They dropped hundreds of millions into the blundering mess that was Rover; and sold it for £10 with (if memory serves) a generous £500m loan to get Phoenix Group going. They gave them the BMW E46 Z axle and multi-bus systems to make the Rover 75 with and taught Rover as much about making a good modern car as they learned from LR about 4x4s.

[firemac]

I read with interest that Toyota and BMW are linking up. BMW supplying 4 and 6 cylinder common-rail diesel engines to Toyota in exchange for Toyotas knowledge on electric powered car technology. I would think this would be beneficial to both parties. Whilst Toyota diesels are excellent,bar the odd blip, the BMW 2ltr and 3ltr diesels are probably the best on the planet at the moment. This was an headline in this weeks Autocar by the way.

Regards Clare

Interesting if true & agree that Toyota can only gain by having access to the best diesel engines around at the moment (assuming BMW don't restrict the spec). If it's from Autocar however, I'd have my doubts; they've not been paragons of accuracy lately on several issues lately, so much so that I've cancelled my long-standing sub. A shame really as I reckoned they were the last quality motor mag left but now they seem to be going the way of all the other comics.....

Absolutely Jimbob...me tae....have cancelled ma subscription to 14 golf magazines, coz I am still playing rubbish,......que....?

Kev the Hooker

Hi K the H,

Can't quite picture you in a mini skirt & heels on a street corner but, hey, whatever turns you on. And we all thought you were a chap.......

[shcm]

ECU work would have been tendered out against a design brief for the interface; they have modules from Philips, Bosch, Lear, Siemens, VDO, Motormeter and more all supporting the bus protocol.

.....I rest my case, the devil is in the detail.

It was also neatly compatible with the upcoming ISO9141 interfaces with the removal of a couple of header bytes in the data packet. All work started in the early 90's when RS232 was king, and it was still operating and expandable until 2007. It's not cold fusion, but it's pretty remarkable nonetheless.

Yeah, K-Bus is a glorified K-line. Hardly "fundamental design". Others have done very similar things for body system, where a slow link is sufficient, they just don't make the "gosh aren't we brilliant" song and dance about it.

Each to his own, I just don't rate them any better than any other VM.

[Joylove]

.....I rest my case, the devil is in the detail.

It is indeed, although who attended to the detail that for example made sure a Blaupunkt, Alpine, Philips or Becker radio was able to display data from Motorola, Peiker, Bosch, or VDO across 15 years and half a dozen form factors with half a dozen different displays without software updates for compatibility probably worked at BMW, not the module suppliers.

Yeah, K-Bus is a glorified K-line. Hardly "fundamental design". Others have done very similar things for body system, where a slow link is sufficient, they just don't make the "gosh aren't we brilliant" song and dance about it.

Each to his own, I just don't rate them any better than any other VM.

There is something quite intelligent (I never said fundamental) about using an existing simple system expanded for their own uses, and not have to custom source ICs, and (probably unintentionally) leaving a path for reverse engineering in the hobby sector.

I still maintain the position expressed in post 8, I like BMW because they are ideal for my hobbies. For example even as a rookie working in the evenings and weekends, I used a PIC and a K-Line transceiver to build a module that does total closure and was going to expand to add auto mirror folding on lock and auto unfolding based on a couple of conditions, auto hot air venting with complimentary data from the RLS sensor, temperature based sun blind control on locking, temperature based seat heat and defrost control, rain based electric roof control; all over the bus without cutting a single wire by plugging in between the CDC and the harness. Oh and the connectors used through the car are mostly available at Farnell/RS.

This is/was all possible for the reasons stated in post 8, the sheer availability of information and others working on the project sharing what they learn.

Unfortunately the car was sold after I got the closure working.

[duncerduncs]

Deal has now been confirmed

http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsArticle/AllCars/260324/

Looks like Toyota have played a blinder here, they are going to receive the 1.6 and 2.0 litre engines (which will fit in the whole range) and all they have to do is give BMW a Prius to break up

[MarsKy]

2.0 litre engines (which will fit in the whole range)

A 2 litre, 184bhp, 50mpg, low emissions, RAV 4.4?

[Manxrav]

Or a detuned 2ltr for the Urbancruiser.

Regards Clare

[duncerduncs]

Or a detuned 2ltr for the Urbancruiser.

Regards Clare

I would imagine that both the Urbancruiser and the Yaris will get the 1.6 :)

[Jozsef]

BMW diesel engine 1.6 litre, 112hp = Yaris and Auris

BMW diesel engine 2.0 litre, 143, 177 and 204hp = bigger Toyota car (example: Rav4)

[duncerduncs]

A Rav 4 T205 (rounding up to PS) would have me reaching deep into my pockets

[MarsKy]

BMW diesel engine 1.6 litre, 112hp = Yaris and Auris

BMW diesel engine 2.0 litre, 143, 177 and 204hp = bigger Toyota car (example: Rav4)

177 was replaced with the 184 last year.

And throw in the 8 speed automatic box, and that RAV would be a winner.

But maybe because BMW have changed their line-up of engines, they're giving Toyota their old technology. Wouldn't surprise me - everything is an optional extra with BMW :)

[Cyker]

The problem is when I think of BMW I think of turbo failure

I hope they use the tech and not just the engines tho'; The variable geometry turbo in the D4D is ossom

[jedi134]

177 was replaced with the 184 last year.

And throw in the 8 speed automatic box, and that RAV would be a winner.

But maybe because BMW have changed their line-up of engines, they're giving Toyota their old technology. Wouldn't surprise me - everything is an optional extra with BMW :)

Now that would be a brillient off road combination

[jedi134]

Deal has now been confirmed

http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsArticle/AllCars/260324/

Looks like Toyota have played a blinder here, they are going to receive the 1.6 and 2.0 litre engines (which will fit in the whole range) and all they have to do is give BMW a Prius to break up

Probably a good idea , the amount of Toyota engines failing at the moment is not looking to good.