Charliefarlies Guide To The Toyota 2Ad Diesel Engine And Its Issues.

[Parts-King]

We know that a HUGE amount of engines have been replaced....

This number continues to rise an a weekly if not daily basis..

That is not the case with us Charlie, we havnt ordered a new engine in 2 months, from people I have spoken to, it is a similar situation

There is a distinct possibility that the change of engine policy is to be changed...

The policy has not changed, it has been clarified (if you could call about 20 pages being clarified) A 3/4 engine is still the repair method

I know you were unlucky with the engines in your car, ive certainly not seen anyone from this dealership with the same issue

Kingo

[Gods_gift]

Well I worry because if I did want to sell my Rav and like many others who havent had this issue in my year range we potentially have you poisoning buyers minds with sweeping statements on a decent forum.

Now I understand yours had issues as have others but it still dont get how you think it's ok to keep delivering the official-unofficial 2AD bashing threads. Toyota fixed yours twice at no cost to you if it was Merc or VW you'd probably be in litigation. So you've had a really good ride from that point - buyer (of anything) beware.

Now as you state mine is well over the failure point so does that go to prove that not all 2AD's are bad? Or should I as you so eloquently put it !Removed! and ignore your threads that damage the resale of my car and others?

I was bought up if you don't understand something question it. I questioned vague facts (imho) before after your sweeping statements and you got the *****. So I'm confused Charlie in your opinion should I not question you at all considering I havent seen the doomed evidence, should I sit back and let you rant and damage my cars value without questioning your 'facts'?

Now I dont doubt there has been a problem but to be helpful to others we need to understand exactly what the root cause of the problem is technically so we as owners can either rectify it or keep an eye on it. If it's a faulty piston ring then we need to know. If it's a manufacturing batch from an engine factory we need to know the manufacturing number range of affected engines?

You can't just say from this date to this date this engine is bad - mine proves this is an inaccurate vague statement.

[Mistermena]

My 1st engine failed at 99k!... The second 3/4 engine failed about 8k after that. This 3rd engine has had its fair share of problem to. The lights came on the dash (Again) yesterday like Darth Vaders space ship. Its starting to lose/use coolant and the engine oil is also going that way to.

My car is booked back into the dealer to have it all checked out again. Dont get me wrong here, I'm very happy that Toyota have replaced the engines for me! but whats going to happen after the 1 year warranty has expired?... I can't afford a new engine at any price atm! So I guess I'll be stuffed...

Is there potential problems with these 2AD engines??? If you think NOT?... Then I'd think again...

[CharlieFarlie]

Well I worry because if I did want to sell my Rav and like many others who havent had this issue in my year range we potentially have you poisoning buyers minds with sweeping statements on a decent forum.

Now I understand yours had issues as have others but it still dont get how you think it's ok to keep delivering the official-unofficial 2AD bashing threads. Toyota fixed yours twice at no cost to you if it was Merc or VW you'd probably be in litigation. So you've had a really good ride from that point - buyer (of anything) beware.

Now as you state mine is well over the failure point so does that go to prove that not all 2AD's are bad? Or should I as you so eloquently put it !Removed! and ignore your threads that damage the resale of my car and others?

I was bought up if you don't understand something question it. I questioned vague facts (imho) before after your sweeping statements and you got the *****. So I'm confused Charlie in your opinion should I not question you at all considering I havent seen the doomed evidence, should I sit back and let you rant and damage my cars value without questioning your 'facts'?

Now I dont doubt there has been a problem but to be helpful to others we need to understand exactly what the root cause of the problem is technically so we as owners can either rectify it or keep an eye on it. If it's a faulty piston ring then we need to know. If it's a manufacturing batch from an engine factory we need to know the manufacturing number range of affected engines?

You can't just say from this date to this date this engine is bad - mine proves this is an inaccurate vague statement.

6000 UNITS AND RISING AND YET STILL YOU WILL NOT ACCEPT THERE IS A PROBLEM ??

What will it take ??

I am not poisoning buyers minds just stating the facts so they can make an informed decision.... After all that is what Forums are here for ?? How I wished I had done my research more thoughroly

Dealers both Toyota and non Toyota are aware there is a problem and that simply put is why the values of the cars has fallen As said above try trading one in and then report back...

Please read the posts above where I give praise to Toyota and acknowledge what they have done and that it still leaves the car with a less value than if the problems had never arisen ... You can read I take it ? Or is every part of the thread going to have to be repeated as it seems You cant do so ??

On the other thread it was You that ranted and raved and refused to read the thread and kept on until I was rude.. Yes I was rude and make no apologies for that..

Now if You have a reasoned argument based on fact lets hear it ...........................

[anchorman]

I won't be changing brands whatever you guys think. I know what a pain it can be when dealing with other manufacturers. I just traded a 10 month old vehicle with 5k on the clock (not Toyota) and lost a shed load of money regardless of the book value. With the luxury of time I would have waited for a better price but didn't want to risk losing this grey RAV.

However, if I was so discontented and so worried about running a RAV I would take a hit and trade it no matter what.

Maybe you just don't want to?

[Gods_gift]

Charlie you keep quoting this 6000 units but what went wrong with them? If there are so many being replaced or rebuilt at dealers im surprise the technical facts havent got out by now. How many 2AD's have been built in total worldwide i.e what was the percentage failure rate? This is what I mean by vague.

[CharlieFarlie]

I won't be changing brands whatever you guys think. I know what a pain it can be when dealing with other manufacturers. I just traded a 10 month old vehicle with 5k on the clock (not Toyota) and lost a shed load of money regardless of the book value. With the luxury of time I would have waited for a better price but didn't want to risk losing this grey RAV.

However, if I was so discontented and so worried about running a RAV I would take a hit and trade it no matter what.

Maybe you just don't want to?

Its a question of time Don as You very well know.. As soon as things settle down I will put the car on Autotrader. This is hard to do as one minute I'm in the Midlands and the next here in Scotland..

With respect all cars loose money especially in that first year,, A Kia must be at the top of the percentage loss tables ??

With the Rav the losses are exacerbated by the engine issues

Anyway why would You be changing brands ? Your car is not among the affected cars, If it was then I believe Your views would be different.

[jedi134]

It's probably a well kept secret, no doubt now things are starting to leak out of dealerships........

Don't forget all the Lexus models running this 2AD engine are also having the same problems.

[CharlieFarlie]

Charlie you keep quoting this 6000 units but what went wrong with them? If there are so many being replaced or rebuilt at dealers im surprise the technical facts havent got out by now. How many 2AD's have been built in total worldwide i.e what was the percentage failure rate? This is what I mean by vague.

It is way over 6000 units....... We do not know for sure what is going wrong other than most burn oil at a rate that Toyota have up till now have said is way to much... This oil burning will cause other issues and eventually ruin the engine. This is why up to now they have been replacing them..

Initially engines were done at the Dealers and modified pistons and rings were replaced so I would guess the faults lie there

Worldwide I don't know.. Its 6000 plus units here in the UK that does not take in what is happening in other countries or markets

As far as I'm aware the American market does not get the diesel variants as they use a V6 petrol

Sorry but that amount of replacements is just mad.. Name Me another manufacturer that has had to replace so many engines ??

I have been vague over the numbers for a very good reason but the numbers I have put up are very conservative....

I go onto quite a few Forums and its rare to hear of an engine replacement unless someone has run one out of oil or maybe run a car through deep water and ingested water,, That is common on BMWs.. But not down to an intrinsic engine design fault .....

Kingo. There are changes in the air !! Dealers are not privy to those changes just yet.. I said about the change in oil consumption test and You said I was wrong.. So did others..... Still turned out to right though.... We shall see.

[CharlieFarlie]

My 1st engine failed at 99k!... The second 3/4 engine failed about 8k after that. This 3rd engine has had its fair share of problem to. The lights came on the dash (Again) yesterday like Darth Vaders space ship. Its starting to lose/use coolant and the engine oil is also going that way to.

My car is booked back into the dealer to have it all checked out again. Dont get me wrong here, I'm very happy that Toyota have replaced the engines for me! but whats going to happen after the 1 year warranty has expired?... I can't afford a new engine at any price atm! So I guess I'll be stuffed...

Is there potential problems with these 2AD engines??? If you think NOT?... Then I'd think again...

I feel for You Tim... That is why I will persist in informing those who ask the questions with facts.. I do NOT make sweeping statements.. I do and have put a lot of time into researching the issue with regard to these engine,, My posts are made on Facts most of which I can prove with documented back up...

I realise what I'm saying is unpopular and is making ME unpopular with those who refuse to listen to the facts.. I've got broad shoulders though and care not one jot................

[anchorman]

This is the only engine warranty bulletin I believe I have ever had and as far as I know its the current one. I said 1 litre of oil per 1000 miles and you picked me up on that and said 1/2 litre per 621 miles which is 1000kms. Ok that should have been 1 litre per 1242 miles which in fact is less oil than I originally suggested.

New engine warranty.pdf

Maybe I've misunderstood your point.

I've told you several times that I would have an older RAV and if it used oil and I couldn't get TGB to resolve the issue then I would simply keep adding oil but you don't seem to believe me so not much point persuing that one (I would try for a new engine but if they pulled the plug I wouldn't bother about it). I can afford the newer one at the moment and like the newer toys but if I had a lower budget I would still have come back to an older (effected) RAV. Maybe I haven't previously explained properly - although these earlier engines used oil, they didn't actually die as long as they were kept topped up with oil. Head gaskets on the other hand could be a problem if they had been left in service for long enough it could damage the head. Now that could be expensive if the owner had to pick up the cost but I never heard of them having to because Toyota honoured them under a policy warranty claim.

Let me pose a simple question to both Charlie and Mistermena.

Accepting that some engines had this oil consumption problem and each of you had a motor with such an engine, how could TGB address the problem to your total satisfaction?

[CharlieFarlie]

Don in effect they have resolved the engine in My case.. In Tims case I would imagine that an engine that did not constantly be giving problems would be a bonus ?

But that is not what I am talking about.......... How many times do I have to repeat I am entirely satisfied with what Toyota have done !!

I thought We were talking about the advice We would give to a new Member asking about say which engine to buy ???

With the current policy Yes you get a replacement engine but is a suspected that comes to an end due to withdrawal of that policy OR the car is approaching the end of the extended warranty as many are or perhaps in the case of GG whose car is up at 103K miles then the Owner cops the bill.........

So surely its only fair to give that information ??

Why would anyone take the risk ??

Say a new Member had the choice of the following ..

Rav4 2.2 D

Ford Kuga.

Kia Sportage

Honda CRV

Or any similar car.. Why on earth would they want to take the risk of the Rav if it has the affected engines ?? Not all are quite so blinkered ??

Don You are a Mechanic and a very knowledgeable one at that so IF You found yourself with a knackered motor and no warranty it would be far less of an issue to You than Me/Us... Just like two Years ago when the wind stripped half of Our roof off..... Piece of cake it was. For many around though it cost them a !Removed! fortune !!

Are You telling Us then that Toyota have been replacing all those units simply because they use oil ???

Or are they doing it because left unchecked the residue and soot would block up items like the DPNR ect ect and lead to total engine failure ??

Surely Toyota aren't concerned about Us spending a few quid on bottles of oil to top up with ???

Mate I'm a bit curious on the newer toys comment ?

What does say a brand new SR have that say My T180 not have ?? I can name a few things it does NOT have but am stuck on the first part of the question ??

[Hoovie]

Just a little comment for anyone who is concerned about their vehicle soon being over the mileage limit for this currently in place Toyota Engine Replacement policy, or worried about Toyota discontinuing it ....

It is possible to take out an extended warranty at any time in the vehicle first 8 years of life OR 100,000 miles (whichever first) - and that is the limits to TAKE OUT the warranty, and NOT a warranty in force limit.

And that would cover the engine imploding as well as just about all the other stuff in the vehicle as well, plus give you very comprehensive Breakdown cover.

Just a suggestion for anyone who is fearing some future event.

Oh, and Charlie .... Keyless Entry and Start, and a 6-speed Automatic are two things that come to mind (plus the very nice smoked-effect 18" wheels ;) )

[Tony Barnsley]

OOPS Double Post

[Tony Barnsley]

It is possible to take out an extended warranty at any time in the vehicle first 8 years of life OR 100,000 miles (whichever first) <snip> And that would cover the engine imploding

Which was the factor that swung it for me . . .it is also possible to get cover from other companies which less expensive, although given the way the Toyota dealers have handled Charlies issues why go elsewhere?

Especially as I've reduced my insurance by more than the cost of the extended warranty :D

[Parts-King]

It is possible to take out an extended warranty at any time in the vehicle first 8 years of life OR 100,000 miles (whichever first) <snip> And that would cover the engine imploding

Which was the factor that swung it for me . . .it is also possible to get cover from other companies which less expensive, although given the way the Toyota dealers have handled Charlies issues why go elsewhere?

Especially as I've reduced my insurance by more than the cost of the extended warranty :D

Tony, I would NOT go for an off the peg warranty in the hope it might cover you for an engine in the future, I could bet you in 99.9999999% of cases an off the peg warranty company would deny a claim for burning oil. The Toyota extended warranty would be the way to go and peace of mind too

Kingo

[CharlieFarlie]

Just a little comment for anyone who is concerned about their vehicle soon being over the mileage limit for this currently in place Toyota Engine Replacement policy, or worried about Toyota discontinuing it ....

It is possible to take out an extended warranty at any time in the vehicle first 8 years of life OR 100,000 miles (whichever first) - and that is the limits to TAKE OUT the warranty, and NOT a warranty in force limit.

And that would cover the engine imploding as well as just about all the other stuff in the vehicle as well, plus give you very comprehensive Breakdown cover.

Just a suggestion for anyone who is fearing some future event.

Oh, and Charlie .... Keyless Entry and Start, and a 6-speed Automatic are two things that come to mind (plus the very nice smoked-effect 18" wheels ;) )

David.. I have key-less entry and start.. Plus a Sunroof and full leather....... Automatic was not an option ....

Ohh and as for extended warranties ...... Plus why should a buyer have to pay for one anyway ?????

[Hoovie]

Didn;t realise keyless entry was on T180

Why should a buyer have to pay for extended warranty?? Why the hell not!

[Parts-King]

Ohh and as for extended warranties ...... Plus why should a buyer have to pay for one anyway ?????

Because after the extended 7 year warranty period the customer will have to start to pay for repairs, Toyota will not leave the engine replacement programme open forever, where do you draw the line? The line is set at 7 years, it wont be 7 years plus a year or two. An extended warranty gives you a longer time period to play with

Kingo

[CharlieFarlie]

Didn;t realise keyless entry was on T180

Why should a buyer have to pay for extended warranty?? Why the hell not!

David I think You misunderstood what I meant...

What I was trying to say is that Folk should not have to feel obliged to take out an aftermarket or to use Kingos words an off the peg warranty because the car has inherent weakness...

Lets also face facts that as the car or any car gets older it falls into a lower price bracket and the additional cost of an expensive warranty such as the official Toyota one may not figure in a buyers budget...

Most after market warranties are worth very little when it comes to an actual claim. They do after all have to make money...

I agree totally with Kingo that No warranty will pay out simply because its engine is burning oil no matter what the consequences...

Also the premiums for warranties are based on the individual car in question in most cases.. With the reputation the Rav 2.2 is gaining that premium will be very large.

[Hoovie]

That's fair enough Charlie, but I disagree for this reason (maybe it is just my own way of thinking?) ......

The Toyota warranty is a little more expensive then other 3rd party ones, but 1) offer a way better coverage and 2) include a very good breakdown package within it.

I like a car with predictable running costs and don't like the prospect of big bills. I also don't like the typical depreciation that goes with changing cars too frequently, so I see starting off with a slightly older vehicle and taking out extended warranty preferable. If no repairs are needed, maybe money wasted, but it gives me peace of mind. If repairs ARE needed, then I don't need to find loads of money for them.

All cars are very reliable nowadays, but the chance of having a repair needed in the first 5 years of ownership is very high IMO. One way to alleviate that is to change cars more often, but then you simply swap repair costs for depreciation. Another way is warranty. That is my preference and nothing to do with worry about just an engine, but to cover faults in engine, gearbox, all the engine ancillaries, etc, etc.

If I had an potentially "affected" RAV4 engine-wise, but I was told that Toyota would guarantee doing an engine swap FOC for this oil-consumption issue for the next 20 years and 200,000 miles, I think I would STILL take out the extended warranty, but maybe that is just me :)

[anchorman]

I understand you are happy with the service from Toyota but I wondered if there was something else that you felt they should have done. The clogged systems are a by product of using oil. They tend to go hand in hand and one that doesn't use oil doesn't tend to block the EGR etc.

The comparison of new toys was between a pre 2009 model (that could be effected by oil consumption especially the earlier ones 06-07). In my case the post 2009 model gave me the keyless entry which I find very useful, the heated seats, the bluetooth radio, cruise (which we now know can be easily and cheaply retro-fitted). I'm not that bothered about the sunroof but my mrs really liked it so I would swap the pointless auto lights and wipers for that. I don't need the power of the T180 and can't be bothered with RFTs.

THe brakes are upgraded which is nice and of course the 150 engine is very nice but that is just a bonus. There are a number of tweeks to sound proofing, steering and suspension that make a subtle but noticeable difference to the handling and road noise. I really like the blue one and with benefit of hindsight, should never have got rid of it.

I could have bought any of the vehicles you mention. The Sportage is good value but Kia are a bit regimental about customer service. I used to visit the Kia forums while I had the Soul and although the warranty is good, if you did get a problem it was much more of an issue getting them to take notice (I can give examples).

The Ford - No. I really like the looks and that goes for most of the range but they still haven't got it together with quality going off several colleagues who run them as fleet cars.

Honda. A very good and under rated car. The quality is high although the looks are a bit iffy from some angles. I think the RAV 4WD/VSC system could save your life where as the Honda is just for if you get stuck in the snow. I wouldn't be embarrased about a CRV but I simply think the RAV is a better proposition.

As daft as it will sound to you, the way Toyota have dealt with these issues is one of the main drivers for convincing me it is the right thing to do. I'd rather have a 2007 RAV with an engine that uses oil than a 2011 Ford that doesn't just because I think I would get a more sympathetic reception from Toyota than from Ford. I could be wrong but wouldn't risk it. Of course you are right in that I worry less about cars but I could come unstuck if there was a really expensive problem and the dealer won't play ball.

At the moment TGB are honouring warranties and if like you say they stopped doing it then I would still prefer to be in situation of making an approach for a policy warranty with them than another brand. There is no reason why you shouldn't warn people that there is a risk of the car using oil if they buy one. I don't think it is a given that they will need a new engine and I don't think it is worth worrying about a warranty program that might end until it does. I think it would be more representative to say that if you bought one and found it uses oil then at the moment you can get it fixed for free.

I just tend to see the positve side of it all and I like my RAVs. I looked through TGBs dealer stock (you can search on the website) and there are 100s of RAVs that sem to all have the going rate sticker price. I can't see that they have devalued in any way.

IMHO

[CharlieFarlie]

I have little experience of warranty claims.. A couple of batteries and a few EGRs on the Transit vans but due to the limited time and mileage span I kept vehicles I had very few issues to claim for..

But warranty companies in general have their staff to pay, Marketing ect ect And many I have spoken to over the years say they are not worth the paper that are written on !

That said I cannot and will not condemn them out of hand and would imagine and hope the Toyota extended warranty would be much better..

So what does it cost then per Year to cover say a 5 or 6 year old car COMPREHENSIVELY.. Say a Rav4 ? By that I mean everything with no exclusions ?? The car burns oil it gets sorted No messing.. Gearbox goes same thing sorted no questions ???

Genuinely interested in the answer.....

[Hoovie]

There are always exclusions, just like a new car warranty.

IIRC, my two year unlimited mles warranty for the RAV4.2 cost about £500 and the only key things not covered that the new car warranty did was the alloy wheels (so I had them replaced at 2 years 10 months!) and the Battery.

That price included full RAC breakdown service including recovery, accomodation costs, homestart and pan-European cover.

As the car gets older, the price goes up obviously.

Is it worth it? Its an insurance policy, so like all insurance, have to decide what level of cover, weighing up probabilities and potential costs. Many say save the money and why line the insurers pockets. All down to personal choice.

[Parts-King]

So what does it cost then per Year to cover say a 5 or 6 year old car COMPREHENSIVELY.. Say a Rav4 ? By that I mean everything with no exclusions ?? The car burns oil it gets sorted No messing.. Gearbox goes same thing sorted no questions ???

RAV Extended warranty, unlimited mileage, 12 months, £610, 24 months, £885

RAV Extended warranty, low user (10K PA miles) 12 months, £558, 24 months, £802

Whilst the warranties are "Similar to manufacturers warranty" you cannot buy a warranty with NO exclusions, even a brand new car has exclusions

Other benefits are as per Hoovie's post above

Kingo