Charliefarlies Guide To The Toyota 2Ad Diesel Engine And Its Issues.

[anchorman]

All I can say is that you should monitior it and if it is using oil your engine will be changed under warranty. If it isn't then don't worry.

[Diesel1]

Hi all,

First off, I really like my Corolla Verso, it is large enough to squeeze seven people in but isn't like an aircraft carrier on wheels like the C4 VTR+ or the Galaxy that I have recently had the 'pleasure' of driving.

Here is my story as I briefly outlined in another thread...

I have had a 3/4 engine replacement (2.2, D4D, 176BHP) in May 2012 at 57000 Miles. This episode began when I left the car for a prepaid service at a Toyota Dealer. After an hour they rang me and said there was no coolant and virtually no oil in the engine. I was shocked to say the least and explained that there had been no warning of either low oil or any overheating. The Servicing Manager said it looked like the headgasket had gone. Just the week before I had travelled from Leeds to Hereford via Doncaster and Birmingham with five blokes in the car and five BMX cycles in/on the car. A round trip of 380 miles with no sign of any problems.

Around 4pm that same day I had another call from the Manager saying it was worse than they thought and I would need the new engine. He said it would be just short of £4,500..... but that Toyota would pay and the new engine was already on it's way to them. I asked them to check the clutch while they had it apart but no one got back to me until Tuesday evening to say the car would be ready to collect at 10am Wednesday morning!

I collected the car and was given nothing but a piece of paper with the new engine number for the DVLA. There is nothing in the book except the service stamp. I asked about the problems and was simply told not to worry because everything was sorted out and the new engine would cure all problems.

I drove the care diligently for the first 1,000 miles, as instructed by the Manager, not using too high or low revs and not over-stressing the engine. I realised the A/C was not blowing cold and went back to get it checked. They checked it and regassed it free of charge after saying they couldn't find any fault!

On a family holiday in Bridlington I found the oil level reading low and topped it up with a litre, correct specification of course. After a short trip I checked the level again and all was fine. We travelled to Scarborough and when I checked the oil again it was over the maximum marker. This happened again in November but the level was a lot higher than the maximum marker and I decided to take the car back to Toyota. I had also noticed the heater would not get hot even after the car had been running for half an hour or more.

They took it in and let the excess oil out and performed 'some' tests. The Servicing Manager asked me to take the car back after 500 miles. I returned after 530 niles and they performed their tests and told me there might be an issue but the engineer was very busy and it could be up to two weeks before I would hear anything. Within an hour of getting home the Manager called me and asked for the car for a week as they would be putting another new engine in or replacing the internal parts of the engine! In the November/December of 2012 I had noticed the gear changes getting 'snatchy' and then the pull away becoming juddery. Having experienced a failed flywheel on a Skoda Octavia I feared the worst.

So the car returned to Toyota for the last week of January 2013 and sure enough once they had the engine out I received the call to tell me the clutch was gone and also the flywheel was shot! The guy also said I needed new discs and pads on the front. The car was MOTed in December and no mention of the discs was made. I was told the clutch and flywheel would be £1,200.58 because there was no charge for labour! I agreed to the clutch and flywheel be replaced as a friend of mine quoted £1,000 at mates rates! Also I wanted to leave all the work to Toyota if possible as any 'problems' would be their's to resolve. How glad am I that I stayed with them? Well, VERY!

I asked to see the car before I agreed to the clutch/flywheel replacement as I wanted to see the engine and other parts and talk to the engineer. I had seen a piece of paper with 'check for turbo damage' written on it and asked the engineer about it. He showed me the turbo and said it seemed fine and he would have no problem if it was his. There was some minor play but it showed no signs of damage. I asked about the engine rebuild and if it was to do with the oil return rings. He seemed suprised that I had any idea about the issue and showed me all the engine in pieces. There was what I would say looked like a lot of carbon at the top of the bore in each pot. He said it was fine even for the 5,000 miles this block had done. I had to bow to his experience and go with it. The car was ready for collection on the Saturday morning.

I collected the car and all seemed good. There was a little more knock between 1,750 and 2,500 revs but I expect this was from the new parts needing to bed in. I put full lefthand steering lock on to reverse into my parking spot and there was an very load groan and a click before reaching the full lock. I returned to the dealer and an engineer took it back in. He returned after half an hour and said the air filter box was vibrating but he had sorted it. Again it seemed fine until I did the reversing maneuver again. This time I could just make out the clicking/knocking just before the full lock. The Servicing Department had shut while I had travelled home so it would have to go back on the Monday.

On the Monday morning the groaning noise sounded one more time before I got to the Dealer. The engineer took the car in and I went to the waiting area. While there I made it clear I wasn't happy that no one had checked the clutch back in May 2012 and if the cluctch had been on it's way out then that could have contributed to the flywheel failing. After a few minutes the Manager said they would replace the discs and pads for free, initially £240 talked down to £180, as a goodwill gesture! I said that I was pleased and it would go some way to alleviating my concern about the clutch not being checked.

I waited another hour and a half to be told there was a problem with the steering rack/pump and it would need replacing, at a cost of £1000!!!!!! The Manager said he had just spent half an hour on the phone toTGB explaining the engine/clutch/flywheel/engine rebuild issues and got them to agrre to pay for the steering parts and the Dealer would cover the labour. The car went back the next day the car was back with them for another two days so they could fix the steering and do the brakes.

While the car was at Toyota a guy from there phoned me and asked me if I would like a free valuation of my car! I told him I knew exactly how much the car was worth, Six Million Dollars! He had no idea what the car had been through! I said I had my own parking bay at their place.

Two weeks prior to the engine rebuild someone had crashed into me and the car would need the rear n/s quarter cutting out and replacing! So having got the car back from the Dealer I got to spend ten minutes driving it to the 'Just Car Clinic' where it will be for another two weeks!!! I will be checking the A/C again when I get the car back to see if it is working.

Toyota said I do not need to go back until I have done 6,000 miles when the car will be due for the last prepaid service.

Interestingly the water pump was replaced when the car was only eighteen months old even though there was no obvious problem, I now wonder if this was the start of the engine issue.

So when I add up the money that Toyota have in this car I wonder why they just didn't give me a new one!

Initial water pump - £380
Engine replacement - £4,500
A/C check and regas - £80
Engine internal rebuild - £1,400
Steering replacement - £1,000
Discs and pads - £240

Not to metion the courtesy car for a week and my costs of £1,200.58! When you add the £2,000 (estimated) cost of the crash repair it is mind boggling.

The car only cost £11,900 when purchased from them. I now call it Trigger's car as it has had two new engines, new steering, new body work........... ;D

Well sorry if I have driven any of you to sleep or suicide but I just felt this was as good a place as any to tell my Toyota story of the 2AD engine replacement.

Diesel1.

[anchorman]

Blimey D1 that's an epic. Fingers crossed you can enjoy it now.

Good luck.

[Diesel1]

Blimey D1 that's an epic. Fingers crossed you can enjoy it now.

Good luck.

Thanks anchorman, I hope so.

The Servicing Manager has told me that from March/April 2011 they had five out of six bays doing only engine changes right up until May/June 2012. He said there were up to ten every week! That was just the Toyota Servicing, they also have a separate Lexus Servicing Deparment that could have been doing the same thing.

If we just say they did eight every week for a year that is 416 engine replacements at this Dealership alone! He said it was costing Toyota tens of millions worldwide.

Simon.

[Uncle Buck]

Hardly any wonder that Toyota have dropped the 2.2 engine after this kind of chaos. I only hope that mine & other members are more reliable & don't suffer as much as yours has ! Mine has been great so far, but I do keep a careful watch on the oil consumption & coolant level.

[Diesel1]

Hardly any wonder that Toyota have dropped the 2.2 engine after this kind of chaos. I only hope that mine & other members are more reliable & don't suffer as much as yours has ! Mine has been great so far, but I do keep a careful watch on the oil consumption & coolant level.

I am starting to think there is always going to be a problem with this engine due to the carbon/coking in the cylinder head. Does using a fuel like V-Power or fuel additives like BG244 alleviate or prevent this issue?

Simon.

[sonixtorm]

If we just say they did eight every week for a year that is 416 engine replacements at this Dealership alone! He said it was costing Toyota tens of millions worldwide.

The 'fun' will really start when the warranties begin running out on older cars. Potentially, you could still spend over £10K on a RAV and find it uneconomical to repair if the extended warranty has expired. I guess in many cases dealer warranty may apply, but outside of the main dealer network, caps on costs and exclusions are likely to be an issue.

[CharlieFarlie]

Im curious where the information comes from that says the 2.2 diesel engine has been dropped ? It is the only diesel engine in the new Rav4 that is due out later this month .... The 2,0 diesel I'm told will be available on the 2WD car and not for some time to come.

Additives will make no difference to the engine...

The "Optifit" engine that is fitted as replacement engines is available over the counter and costs in the region of 14 to 1500 quid though its not known the stance the will be taken regarding the £1300 deposits required at the point of purchase.. It may be the deposit is not returnable but that is not known .. Kingo ?

So where this figure of 10K comes from Ive no idea ..

[anchorman]

Lets not start this again, it's covered in old posts.

As far as the current 2.2 is concerned I have just bought a new one because I believe it has evolved into a reliable and suprisingly powerful engine. I am not impressed with BMW engines that date from 2006 (if we are comparing apples with apples) as they had a multitude of issues but they may all be resolved now so I am not able to compare with the current Toyota 2.2 150 which IMO is a gem. Maybe they are both good, maybe the BMW is better. I feel a bit better with the devil I know or I wouldn't have coughed up more than I did for my first house.

I believe that the reasons for dropping the 2.2 will be more commercial than anything else.

[Diesel1]

Charlie, the figure I was quoted was £4,490 including parts, engine kit, labour and V.A.T. fitted by the dealer.

Simon.

[anchorman]

Lets not start this again, it's covered in old posts.

As far as the current 2.2 is concerned I have just bought a new one because I believe it has evolved into a reliable and suprisingly powerful engine. I am not impressed with BMW engines that date from 2006 (if we are comparing apples with apples) as they had a multitude of issues but they may all be resolved now so I am not able to compare with the current Toyota 2.2 150 which IMO is a gem. Maybe they are both good, maybe the BMW is better. I feel a bit better with the devil I know or I wouldn't have coughed up more than I did for my first house.

I believe that the reasons for dropping the 2.2 will be more commercial than anything else.

You posted just before me Charlie - I was referring to sonixstorm's comment

[CharlieFarlie]

Hardly any wonder that Toyota have dropped the 2.2 engine after this kind of chaos. I only hope that mine & other members are more reliable & don't suffer as much as yours has ! Mine has been great so far, but I do keep a careful watch on the oil consumption & coolant level.

I am starting to think there is always going to be a problem with this engine due to the carbon/coking in the cylinder head. Does using a fuel like V-Power or fuel additives like BG244 alleviate or prevent this issue?

Simon.

Simon.. The use of quality fuel will help on replaced engines but extremely unlikely to affect the outcome of an engine that has been run on supermarket fuel for some or most of its life.

The modifications made to you new engine should mean it will be fine from here on in but that cannot be guaranteed..

I am curious to know why the Dealer stripped your new engine ? This is completely against Toyota policy which demands that a failed "Optifit" engine will be replaced and the unit taken out will be sent back to Japan..

[anchorman]

Me too. It makes me wonder if these "in house" repairs are done to cover up something that should have been done in the first place. Why would a dealer do that sort of thing?

[Diesel1]

Hardly any wonder that Toyota have dropped the 2.2 engine after this kind of chaos. I only hope that mine & other members are more reliable & don't suffer as much as yours has ! Mine has been great so far, but I do keep a careful watch on the oil consumption & coolant level.

I am starting to think there is always going to be a problem with this engine due to the carbon/coking in the cylinder head. Does using a fuel like V-Power or fuel additives like BG244 alleviate or prevent this issue?

Simon.

Simon.. The use of quality fuel will help on replaced engines but extremely unlikely to affect the outcome of an engine that has been run on supermarket fuel for some or most of its life.

The modifications made to you new engine should mean it will be fine from here on in but that cannot be guaranteed..

I am curious to know why the Dealer stripped your new engine ? This is completely against Toyota policy which demands that a failed "Optifit" engine will be replaced and the unit taken out will be sent back to Japan..

I am also wondering why they did a rebuild too. I am going to go back and ask for some more info.

Do you think the engineer was right to say a small amount of play in the turbo is correct? My garage friend has said no way and his chin nearly hit the floor when I told him! I must admit I was suprised but then I am no expert.

Simon.

[CharlieFarlie]

Charlie, the figure I was quoted was £4,490 including parts, engine kit, labour and V.A.T. fitted by the dealer.

Simon.

Simon the cost of an inhouse "Optifit engine is less than 2500 pounds..

The way it works is this.....

The Dealer buys the replacement engine form Toyota the parent company. Remember all dealers are franchised. The cost of this bare unit is in the region of 1300 to 1350..

The dealer then buys any parts such as gaskets manifolds ect ect in fact any parts needed to fully fit and finish the job

These costs for parts and the Dealers labour costs are then invoiced by the dealer to Toyota as one figure..

The above costs do not take VAT into the equation because VAT does not apply.. I cannot recall why but it is not a requirement for VAT to be charged between the dealer and Toyota..

Total cost I have on my invoices was slightly less than £2400..

Toyota charge a figure of £1300 to the dealer but this is refunded providing the old engine is returned or shipped within ten working days....

So if in the future an owner finds themselves with an out of warranty engine suffering from problems then there is still a way out..

The Optifit engine is circa 14 to 1600 pounds over the counter but Kingo was not as far as I'm aware able to clarify what happens with the 1300 quid deposit OR if in fact it will or can be refunded at all..

Fitting by a dealer of an out of warranty engine should be best left to a Dealer as they know this job inside out now and if this happens warranty on an Optifit would be an easier claim if fitted by a franchised main dealer..

Hope this helps clear things up a little.

[Diesel1]

Sure Charlie I don't doubt you but that was what they quoted me! I think as they are both VAT registered it is written off between them(?).

What do you think about the turbo?

Simon.

[CharlieFarlie]

Hardly any wonder that Toyota have dropped the 2.2 engine after this kind of chaos. I only hope that mine & other members are more reliable & don't suffer as much as yours has ! Mine has been great so far, but I do keep a careful watch on the oil consumption & coolant level.

I am starting to think there is always going to be a problem with this engine due to the carbon/coking in the cylinder head. Does using a fuel like V-Power or fuel additives like BG244 alleviate or prevent this issue?

Simon.

Simon.. The use of quality fuel will help on replaced engines but extremely unlikely to affect the outcome of an engine that has been run on supermarket fuel for some or most of its life.

The modifications made to you new engine should mean it will be fine from here on in but that cannot be guaranteed..

I am curious to know why the Dealer stripped your new engine ? This is completely against Toyota policy which demands that a failed "Optifit" engine will be replaced and the unit taken out will be sent back to Japan..

I am also wondering why they did a rebuild too. I am going to go back and ask for some more info.

Do you think the engineer was right to say a small amount of play in the turbo is correct? My garage friend has said no way and his chin nearly hit the floor when I told him! I must admit I was suprised but then I am no expert.

Simon.

Simon. I have couple of concerns here I will try to explain why...

Firstly it is definitely against Toyota policy to even take the head of these engines...

It used to be done at the dealers when problems first started to arise but the cost of dealer built engines exceeded that of reconditioning the engines and shipping them from Japan so the replacement rather than re building policy was introduced..

It was also I and others believe because quite a few dealer re built engines gave further problems and as discussed here many time the 2.2 2AD engine is a complex unit requiring exacting tolerances and only the very best technicians should take them apart..

As for the turbo I have little idea its just to complex an issue for my limited knowledge except to say that I thought very fine tolerances are needed so play could maybe lead to problems just as your failed clutch maybe led to the DMF failure ? Not sure so just guessing ...

[Diesel1]

I wonder if the engine rebuild is now because the replacement programme is being wound back? The Servicing Manager said this is only the second, second engine problem he had seen.

As for the turbo I couldn't detect any play when the engineer showed me it although I didn't actually touch it!

Simon.

[Diesel1]

I just wish I had been able to take a photo of the engine in bits. Literally the entire thing down to the last bearing seat was laid out on several benches and shelves.

Simon.

[Gav rav]

I have my car booked in or the engine replacement on Monday, I just hope everything goes ok, but knowing my luck something will go wrong!

[Diesel1]

I have my car booked in or the engine replacement on Monday, I just hope everything goes ok, but knowing my luck something will go wrong!

Are they doing the Optifit replacement or rebuilding?

@Charlie: I wonder if they did a rebuild because my replacement Optifit only had 5,000 miles on it?

Simon.

[Gav rav]

They said it was a replacement, so assume it's the optifit!?

[Diesel1]

They said it was a replacement, so assume it's the optifit!?

I would keep a very keen eye on the coolant and oil.

When I asked what had been replace/reused this time around, I was told the oil was new but the coolant was reused as it is a 'five year, all season' coolant.

Having spoken to several 'petrol head' friends the concensus seems to be that running a premuim brand fuel not only helps with keeping the engine clean but does also deliver the extra mpg to balance the extra cost at the pump.

Simon.

[CharlieFarlie]

I have my car booked in or the engine replacement on Monday, I just hope everything goes ok, but knowing my luck something will go wrong!

Are they doing the Optifit replacement or rebuilding?

@Charlie: I wonder if they did a rebuild because my replacement Optifit only had 5,000 miles on it?

Simon.

Simon just trust me on this one... There is no way or reason I can think of where a dealership would strip a Toyota supplied optifit unit ........ It would and should simply go back to Japan and Toyota will supply another one. It is strictly against current policy to do so....

If a unit is defective the dealer will get paid again.. Dealer gets something in the region of 13 or 14 hours labour to fit the unit.. It takes them around 6 hours as they are so well practiced.

You friends comments on the fuel are bang on and is what I do with both of our diesel cars.. V power all the way for me.

Gavin if your car has the symptoms you will be just fine and yes it will be an optifit engine as it is the only way the dealer can deal with it....

[JHL]

The engine in my T180 was changed last November and it has just been checked after completing 700 miles, everything OK so far. The dealer will check the engine again after a further 1000 miles and once more before the warranty runs out. I do not know if the replacement engine was an 'Optifit' unit, however I do know that it was complete replacement and was recorded as a 'REMAN AD ENGINE T19000-OR070-CU unit.