Charliefarlies Guide To The Toyota 2Ad Diesel Engine And Its Issues.

[Prince_209]

I took my car in again for them to check the oil again and they confirmed that it's used just over a litre in less than 1200 miles. I sent them my service history details and they've sent the paperwork off to Toyota.

I got a phone call today from the dealer saying that Toyota (GB?) have said that the dealer needs to carry out a diagnosis to check certain parts, for example the EGP Valve, injector compression values and then they need to send the data sheet off to Toyota. The guy said that Toyota do not pay for diagnosis and that I would have to pay 2 hours labour which will cost £216. I asked whether Toyota would refund the money afterwards but he said no they won't refund this, as they don't pay for diagnosis. He said the latest bulletin (which was over 80 pages long) states that this check must be carried out and paid for by the customer.

I haven't seen any mention of anyone having to pay anything so was just wondering if people just haven't mentioned this diagnosis payment, and whether this is normal? He insisted that I would have to pay, so I guess I don't really have an option but to pay, but wanted to get your views on this.

I asked whether I would get a courtesy car and he said he could arrange for that, but I would to pay an insurance fee of £12.50 + VAT.

[Parts-King]

Correct, they don't pay any diagnosis costs.........and the latest service bulletin is a weighty tome, there is a strict policy that has to be completed fully before engines are authorised. Some dealers wave insurance charges, others have to charge, especially the big dealer groups, there is no right to a free car / insurance etc, but dealers will help out where possible.

Kingo

[Prince_209]

OK thanks for the quick reply. I'll get it booked in with them then, just odd that no-one mentioned that they'd had to pay this in any of the posts in this thread, unless I've missed those posts! :P

[Tony Barnsley]

I think it depends on the faults that are happening and the amount of oil that is being used.

I did not have to pay for diagnosis,as I had already had the injectors re-calibrated, the EGR valve Cleaned (twice) and during the 'oil consumption test' it use 1.9L in just over 600 miles.

Thanks to Don (Anchs) Richard and Paul at RRG Macclesfield sorting out the replacement was easy . . . My local dealer was being a total PITA over it.

[Prince_209]

Wow, that must've been costing you a fortune in oil! Mine's used just over a litre in about 730 miles, which is bad, but nowhere near as bad as yours!

[Big Kev]

Announcement from me who has had a bad day.....ah think it is total PISH that the customer has to pay diagnosis for what is a known fault, regardless what fault appears, chronologically or otherwise......these faults are known to be linked to the one problem and now a wee bit of damage limitation is creeping in......more than likely A WEE PRECEDENT to the Pontius Pilate finger bowl being passed round all dealers from Toyota GB. If anybody has a car coming near the time or mileage barring, you better be checking your oil very diligently.

The car insurance charge I cannot argue with......not even worth a mention.

Big Kev

[Prince_209]

That's exactly what I was thinking! I wouldn't mind paying upfront and then getting a refund later once it's confirmed to be this issue, but they won't even refund it afterwards. I tried explaining that to the dealer, saying that the warranty has been extended for this issue, but he said no the warranty hasn't been extended, we're doing this out of good will, so it's the goodwill that's been extended to 7 years, not the warranty. I gave up after that...

[CharlieFarlie]

OK thanks for the quick reply. I'll get it booked in with them then, just odd that no-one mentioned that they'd had to pay this in any of the posts in this thread, unless I've missed those posts! :P

Never heard of these charges before !!!

Not doubting Kingos word for a minute though and it seems Toyota are tightening up a bit ??

Though if the car is burning oil over the prescribed amount then surely its a simple decision that checking other parts will not change ?

[anchorman]

They are very strict with the oil consumption test now.

[Devon Aygo]

Its a difficult position to be in, Toyota do not pay dealers for warranty diagnosis of any kind only for the actual time required to complete the required repair. As dealers we have costs to recover. I cannot comment on the case above but at our dealership we will happily waive the costs involved when the customer is a regular, using us for normal servicing and repairs, if they do not then I will happily cover the repair costs whatever they are i.e Engine, EGR , Injectors & Dpnr but diagnosis needs to be paid for by the customer.

As Kingo said the diagnostics involved before we change the engine runs to approx 80 pages and can take several hours, more if the car has a Dpnr. the diagnostics require us to check the proper operation of MAP, MAF, EGR, DPNR & Injectors before we change the engine, if they are faulty then they are included into the warranty repair along with the engine.

Devon

[mikis]

There must have been many cars like ours sold in Germany the last seven years. It would be interesting to know what's happening there.

Regards

Mikis

Greece

[Big Kev]

There must have been many cars like ours sold in Germany the last seven years. It would be interesting to know what's happening there.

Regards

Mikis

Greece

Lost me there, Mikis, but Kalo Pasca anyway.....

Big Kev

[Davrav]

There must have been many cars like ours sold in Germany the last seven years. It would be interesting to know what's happening there.

Regards

Mikis

Greece

Lost me there, Mikis, but Kalo Pasca anyway.....

Big Kev

I'll translate from english to............ errrr english

Have they been having the same 2AD engine problems and how have they been dealt with?

[mikis]

There must have been many cars like ours sold in Germany the last seven years. It would be interesting to know what's happening there.

Regards

Mikis

Greece

Lost me there, Mikis, but Kalo Pasca anyway.....

Big Kev

Than

There must have been many cars like ours sold in Germany the last seven years. It would be interesting to know what's happening there.

Regards

Mikis

Greece

Lost me there, Mikis, but Kalo Pasca anyway.....

Big Kev

Thank you Big Kev, Kalo Pasca=Happy easter to you too and to everyone!

[Seons]

Charlie

I think you may have helped me enormously! My RAV4 - T180 DCat was running sluggishly - no pick up at low revs.No warning lights at all on dash. Car died on me - dropped into limp mode...got to the garage last Wednesday. Diagnostic apparently done.... fuel filter and housing replaced. Still lagging.... complete fuel system cleaned including tank removal. Still lagging....now being told that the DPF is not regenerating and will need replaced!

Along with this all this info..... btw it passed MOT in January! Told that the water pump leaking and an oil leak!.

Too many coincidences for my liking....... think perhaps my car's problems come under this warranty banner!!!! Would I be right????

Would really appreciate your feedback before I have to confront them in the Toyota garage tomorrow!!

Seons

[CharlieFarlie]

Charlie

I think you may have helped me enormously! My RAV4 - T180 DCat was running sluggishly - no pick up at low revs.No warning lights at all on dash. Car died on me - dropped into limp mode...got to the garage last Wednesday. Diagnostic apparently done.... fuel filter and housing replaced. Still lagging.... complete fuel system cleaned including tank removal. Still lagging....now being told that the DPF is not regenerating and will need replaced!

Along with this all this info..... btw it passed MOT in January! Told that the water pump leaking and an oil leak!.

Too many coincidences for my liking....... think perhaps my car's problems come under this warranty banner!!!! Would I be right????

Would really appreciate your feedback before I have to confront them in the Toyota garage tomorrow!!

Seons

Sorry only just seen this

It may be that your problems point towards the usual engine issues or it may be something else ?

The usual pointers as described in great detail in this thread are oil consumption and coolant being expelled from the system and also heavy fuel consumption though as previously said this is unlikely to be recognised as an indicator by Toyota as differing driving styles cause massive variations in those figures..

It is possible that your filter has caused the poor running.. Im no Tech so maybe others can advise. It does seem to be a problem reported of late...

How is your oil consumption ? Do you loose coolant ?

[Seons]

Update for you Charlie....and other RAV4 owners.

Discussed this thread with manager at Toyota dealership....especially the Warranty details from their own TSM.

Manager at the dealership wanted to know where I had got the info!!! Told him online and no other detail.

Apparently the version I quoted to him has now been updated..... and he would not let me see that! Not allowed by Toyota!

Anyway to cut a long story short..... my car does not qualify as the head gasket is fine and had been replaced prior to my owning it! The DFP is unclogged but requires changed as the manager reckons there is something broken in it,,,,,,

Thanks for the support guys but may be looking at PXing as repairs just not balancing out!

Seons

[crustyclam]

Update for you Charlie....and other RAV4 owners.

Discussed this thread with manager at Toyota dealership....especially the Warranty details from their own TSM.

Manager at the dealership wanted to know where I had got the info!!! Told him online and no other detail.

Apparently the version I quoted to him has now been updated..... and he would not let me see that! Not allowed by Toyota!

Anyway to cut a long story short..... my car does not qualify as the head gasket is fine and had been replaced prior to my owning it! The DFP is unclogged but requires changed as the manager reckons there is something broken in it,,,,,,

Thanks for the support guys but may be looking at PXing as repairs just not balancing out!

Seons

i sometimes wonder in cases like these if a mechanic in the know and watchdog teamed up what would happen.

Don't know much about DPF's, but i have read about them beng clogged, and failing regens. As far i as i can tell eventually they may fail regens because of ash build up as this cannot be burnt off. Good driving conditions seeing the engine and exhaust warm up should see many years of trouble free problems, the 5th injector employed on the RAV is i believe meant also to help on this issue (i standby to be corrected!). Of course poor fuel and short distance driving will exacerbate the issue of premature failure due to the fact the DPF cannot regenarate.

Personally i would want to know what else can break in the DPF and for them to be more specific why it needs replacing if clogging is not an issue, it sounds like you have payed for a few things to be changed without much result, that would pee me off.

Also why does your car not qualify for any extended warranty issues, if the head gasket was changed, did a toyota garage do it? If it failed to recify the problem should you still not be covered? i would have thought so.

[Seons]

These were the initial conditions that the warranty was based on.....my Head Gasket is fine and the oil consumption is not this hideous.

Manager reckons that there is something broken somewhere in the 'honeycomb' of theDPF! just my luck it couldn't be something easy to fix!

Sorry for the font , underline etc....copying from Charlies earlier thread and can't change! As for being ticked off - you have no idea!!!! Thanks for the support ;) Seons

Conditions Covered

1) Oil consumption worse than 0.5 litre per 621 miles (1,000 km)
2) Overheating & Head Gasket failure due to carbon deposits on the pistons

For all other out of warranty conditions related to AD engine problems, where the customer complaint can be directly linked to a “carbon clogging” concern, i.e. EGR Valve, DPNR, 5th Injector, EGR Cooler, blocked manifold, etc., we would accept this as being linked to an oil consumption condition.

[Wookie123]

Done the 1000 miles now, and having checked the oil level pretty much every day in the same circumstances (after 20-30 minutes of cooling) on a level surface have watched the oil level go up and down and never give me the same or similar results. However when we take it to the Toyota garage they get exactly the same result as they did when they first tested it, so apparently it's not guzzling oil. Anyone got any suggestions why the oil level may be fluctuating?

Also had the car serviced today and were informed that despite us having engine lights come on intermittently, the engine sounding flat and smoke pouring out of the back of the car on star-up from cold there was absolutely nothing wrong with it. Five minutes after leaving the dealership the engine light came on though so took it back. Apparently the 1st and 4th injector are faulty and not covered by the warranty and as such will be our responsibility to replace at a cost of £3K! Anyone got any advice on this as the EGR valve clogged previously I'm still not convinced we don't have this problem.

We did return the car to the garage from which we purchased it 2 days after their 12 month warranty expired (simply due to it's location we could not get there sooner). They diagnosed an injector fault, although couldn't/wouldn't tell us which one and said they would investigate whether it was covered by their warranty and never got back to us. Very tempted to write a strongly worded letter stating sort it or we'll be returning the car as not fit for purpose as a £3k bill for a car we purchased for £10k only last year is a little hefty and I think I'm within my rights to expect the car to have lasted a lot longer/done a lot more mileage before developing a serious fault like this.

[CharlieFarlie]

Oil expands when hot... But not by very much...

Getting a reading off the stick can be a little hap hazzard as the oil just does not want to stick to the Err stick. This can be improved slightly by rubbing the stick with wet and dry or emery paper to help make the stick less slick.... Be sure and make sure its totally clean before putting it back in place though !

Ideally you should measure after the car has been stood overnight is best..

Wookie I can only suggest you try a different Toyota Dealer as some fail to recognise or at least claim they are not aware of the problems.. Which if I'm frank is just ridiculous.

What we cant of course rule out is that your problems are unrelated to the usual engine problems.. If it is then its just bad luck as it would be with pretty much any model and brand of car.

Seons.. Your car may have had it head gasket replaced but unless it had the modified pistons and rings then the half job done would result in more problems. Problems like you are having now..

The 2AD engine is a very complex unit indeed and it has been said many times that engines done at the Dealers before the policy was changed to replacements are nothing short of a liability... Sorry but that is unfortunately the reality ...

This does not however stop you from pointing these facts out to the Dealer and asking that the engine be done again or changed as it would be today...

Failing that my advice would be to drop the car... And I assure you I have given some thought before saying that !

IF and it is an assumption you engine has been repaired and is giving more trouble then it could end up being a rolling liability...

This is because..... Lets assume just the head gasket has been done..... Well that's the symptoms sorted but the disease remains.. SO it is possible that replacing the DPNR could be only a temporary fix as the disease would start all over till the symptoms re appear...

Not the bearer of good news am I.......... Sorry but its best you are at least in full possession of the facts ....

[kencat]

Think there is a modified injector ?! Sumthing about 2 dots on top of the modified and 1 on the old 1s

[anchorman]

There are indeed type 1 and type 2 injectors.

I can never get a consistent reading on the dipstick without an overnight stand. It is otherwise up and down like a brides nighty.

[Prince_209]

An update.

I gave my car in for the dealer to inspect it, they've said that in addition to the engine exchange, they'll also only be replacing the injectors (1-4). I queried whether they'd be exchanging the 5th one as well, but they said, no, the car only has 4 injectors and they'll be replacing all 4. Any ideas as to why they're unaware of the 5th injector?

They also said that the EGR valve won't be replaced. I checked the engine manage codes before I gave the car in and it had 2 codes, both of which were p0400, so am surprised that they've come to this conclusion.

I asked whether my car has a DPF, but they said they can't tell, as this isn't given in the spec. of the car, even from the chassis no. He doubts it has one, but if it does have one then it's not showing any issues, so that won't be replaced and neither will the cat.

Also it says in the first post that it's recommend to replace the clutch at the same time as there will be no labour costs (the post mentions the RAV4 but I have a Verso), is this something that the dealer will ring me to ask if I want it changed once they've taken everything apart or should I ask them to change it, in case they don't end up ringing me or is it not that expensive on a Verso to do afterwards?

Thanks.

[Diesel1]

I asked my dealer to check the clutch when they replaced my engine last May (2012) but they didn't! When they rebuilt the new engine in January (2013) they said my clutch AND flywheel were knackered and they would replace them at parts cost only (1,200 pounds and fifty eight pence!!!) as they had the engine out.

Diesel1