Charliefarlies Guide To The Toyota 2Ad Diesel Engine And Its Issues.

[jedi134]

Now that is another good point about the oil mistermeaner.....In a petrol I can always keep the oil a very light golden brown at 5k service intervals sometimes even more, in a diesel its black in 1k even less, In origin diesels are dirty smelly oil burners like firemac says. They are work horses/tractors after all.

But sell because of the mpg, which in my rav I dont think thats great anyway.

Are they try to be the new petrol?

[MarsKy]

they fixed the swirl issue on the bmw some years ago.

the forums say to get them changed and blank off the egr valve if you have the old engine.

new 2 litre engine is brilliant - 184bhp, 50+ mpg, low emissions and VED.

problem is i don't believe condition based maintenance leaving oil and filter changes to maybe 25k miles can be good for modern diesel engines which are proving more temperemental as they "evolve".

and if you want to diy you need a man with a laptop to reset things after you've finished tinkering.

[Dale mill]

Toyota vs BMW engines - The jury is out

Excellent posts on the Toyota engine subject –but who says that BMW engines are so superior?

My last car was a 04-plate Beamer 320D, which had less than 40k on the clock when it packed-in without warning. The problem was the swirl flaps, which are built into the inlet manifold and can adjust the swirl angle to help achieve the most efficient fuel burn for the current engine load/revs. I believe that they can also snap shut momentarily if you are being a bit enthusiastic on the throttle and begin to lose traction. This briefly kills the power, and is great for stability control, but it must put a fair load on the swirl flap spindles. It seems that there was a period when the spindles were of a smaller diameter than what may have been ideal for the design and this is what could lead to premature failure. This was true for the 4-cylinder 2.0D and the 6-cylinder 3.0D engines. Unfortunately, when failure occurs, the broken bits are ingested into the engine and can totally wreck it. I did not buy the car from a dealer, and it was out of manufacturer’s warranty by a few months, but it had a full BMW service record and low mileage. This was a known issue, but not subject to a recall. As a gesture of goodwill, BMW offered to supply and fit a brand new engine if I would pay just 20% of the labour cost for fitting it – No brainer! Thanks to BMW for good customer relations.

I bought my 06-plate RAV-4 T180 privately a couple of years ago with fewer than 40k on the clock. It had been leased previously, and had a full Toyota service history. As it approached its 70k service in December, I had noticed a little coolant loss. I had topped it up by about half a litre over the previous thousand miles. Since it hadn’t used a drop of coolant over the previous 30k miles, there was clearly something amiss. There was no overheating or excessive oil consumption, but I had cleaned-out the EGR valve twice during the period. I could see where coolant had been pushed out of the header tank by excessive pressure in the system. Thanks to some very useful posts on this site, I was able to give my local dealer chapter & verse on the probable cause when I took it in for service.

They called me after a couple of hours and told me that a replacement engine was already on order, and there would be no charge for the entire replacement - How good can it get? I had noticed that there was the telltale tinkling/rattling on tick-over which disappeared when the clutch was dipped, so I asked them to fit a new clutch whilst the engine was out. The cost was for parts only – More good news.

With the major problem on the engine, I had forgotten to tell them that I had just begun to notice a little knock from the steering intermediate shaft – something else which gets some coverage on this site. Well it doesn’t knock now, so they must have fitted a new one whilst the engine was out, and didn’t even mention it – No charge.

I’m so glad that in both cases, my blown engines were from known issues, or I might have been considering a bicycle – or maybe counselling.

In conclusion, I must say many thanks to Toyota (and BMW) for fair play and good customer service, and also thanks to those posters and users who make this site so useful and informative.

Steve

since having the clutch replace has the rattling noise gone ?

[GreaseMonkey]

I was a happy little smug bunny running round in my 2006 Rav 2.2 XT4 until I stumbled upon this 2AD engine failure business.

I now feel I am riding around on a time bomb, "will it or wont it "

Does anybody know roughly what the percentage failure rate is of these engines ?

My vehicle is not displaying any symptoms at the moment, but it sounds as if it would be a blessing if it did fail and warrant a new engine and not leave me with a worthless lump after the 7 years is up.

[Mistermena]

No one know what % of engines this effects mate! But it will be small considering how many cars have these engines! Its just highlighted on a forum like this because of the amount of people that have has them done. Some have had 2 engines replaced...

[Mistermena]

Now that is another good point about the oil mistermeaner.....In a petrol I can always keep the oil a very light golden brown at 5k service intervals sometimes even more, in a diesel its black in 1k even less, In origin diesels are dirty smelly oil burners like firemac says. They are work horses/tractors after all.

But sell because of the mpg, which in my rav I dont think thats great anyway.

Are they try to be the new petrol?

When I had my 2nd dealer re-built engine I noticed that the oil didn't start to blacken untill about 3k was on the clock! Just changed it the other day (Approx 10k) and its starting to turn. Like you said with a petrol engine (Like my A6 3.2) it didn't start to turn black untill about 8-9k! Just goes to show how dirty an oil burner is over petrol in part to do with the acidity of the fuel!...

[dervdave]

Just goes to show how dirty an oil burner is over petrol in part to do with the acidity of the fuel!...

Soot !

[Mistermena]

Just goes to show how dirty an oil burner is over petrol in part to do with the acidity of the fuel!...

Soot !

Yep!... And all the crap that the EGR valve is feeding back into the engine to eat!

[anchorman]

If you make some stainless steel blanks you can block off the EGR and it will still function perfectly.

[Steve-Jeep]

Toyota vs BMW engines - The jury is out

Excellent posts on the Toyota engine subject –but who says that BMW engines are so superior?

My last car was a 04-plate Beamer 320D, which had less than 40k on the clock when it packed-in without warning. The problem was the swirl flaps, which are built into the inlet manifold and can adjust the swirl angle to help achieve the most efficient fuel burn for the current engine load/revs. I believe that they can also snap shut momentarily if you are being a bit enthusiastic on the throttle and begin to lose traction. This briefly kills the power, and is great for stability control, but it must put a fair load on the swirl flap spindles. It seems that there was a period when the spindles were of a smaller diameter than what may have been ideal for the design and this is what could lead to premature failure. This was true for the 4-cylinder 2.0D and the 6-cylinder 3.0D engines. Unfortunately, when failure occurs, the broken bits are ingested into the engine and can totally wreck it. I did not buy the car from a dealer, and it was out of manufacturer’s warranty by a few months, but it had a full BMW service record and low mileage. This was a known issue, but not subject to a recall. As a gesture of goodwill, BMW offered to supply and fit a brand new engine if I would pay just 20% of the labour cost for fitting it – No brainer! Thanks to BMW for good customer relations.

I bought my 06-plate RAV-4 T180 privately a couple of years ago with fewer than 40k on the clock. It had been leased previously, and had a full Toyota service history. As it approached its 70k service in December, I had noticed a little coolant loss. I had topped it up by about half a litre over the previous thousand miles. Since it hadn’t used a drop of coolant over the previous 30k miles, there was clearly something amiss. There was no overheating or excessive oil consumption, but I had cleaned-out the EGR valve twice during the period. I could see where coolant had been pushed out of the header tank by excessive pressure in the system. Thanks to some very useful posts on this site, I was able to give my local dealer chapter & verse on the probable cause when I took it in for service.

They called me after a couple of hours and told me that a replacement engine was already on order, and there would be no charge for the entire replacement - How good can it get? I had noticed that there was the telltale tinkling/rattling on tick-over which disappeared when the clutch was dipped, so I asked them to fit a new clutch whilst the engine was out. The cost was for parts only – More good news.

With the major problem on the engine, I had forgotten to tell them that I had just begun to notice a little knock from the steering intermediate shaft – something else which gets some coverage on this site. Well it doesn’t knock now, so they must have fitted a new one whilst the engine was out, and didn’t even mention it – No charge.

I’m so glad that in both cases, my blown engines were from known issues, or I might have been considering a bicycle – or maybe counselling.

In conclusion, I must say many thanks to Toyota (and BMW) for fair play and good customer service, and also thanks to those posters and users who make this site so useful and informative.

Steve

since having the clutch replace has the rattling noise gone ?

Yes, the rattling on tickover has completely disappeared since the clutch was replaced. I had previously thought that this was due to the transmission.

[Akbar2k7]

Sorry where can I get a link to the actual TSB? Just in case Toyota dont listen. I want something official.

[CharlieFarlie]

Whats the magic word ???

[jedi134]

Err?................oil? :P

[DjRav]

DIY as in at home may present a problem... After all it could be argued that the car has had little or no maintenance.. Servicing by Non Franchised garages such as a local small garage is fine so long as the book is stamped..

Charlie.

I was planning on doing the intermediate service myself (just an oil change I'm told and Toyota garage quoted £138?!)

It was full-service last year (by main dealer) and I'll do the same next year. I'll keep oil/filter receipts as well, will that be acceptable to Toyota do you think?

Dave

[anchorman]

Yes it will.

[CharlieFarlie]

Can You get the book stamped by a friendly garage ? If not PM Me and I will see if I can help .. Wink wink .....

[Gods_gift]

This sounds like it could be a variety of issues hence why engine swaps are being favoured by Mr T. If head gaskets are going could be due to gasket material failure or heads warping due to over heating/design/material fault (MG's suffered from this). If burning/using too much oil thats a piston ring design issue or cylinder lining wear issue caused by material fault. Also bets are that Mr T got fed up with dealers taking the ***** on cost of rebuilds/botch jobs and it's cheaper to do in house in bulk.

I doubt UK diesel grades have much to do with this unless the failures are all down to short journeys where cold engines can't burn the fuels at proper temps.

Fords have an issue where the exhaust particle filter gets blocked if too many short trips are done. BMW had the cylinder liner issue (nikasil) a while back, current ones have an oil pump issue that leak. Mercedes V6 petrols had an off period with piston rings and oil usage.

So it's not just Mr T. I think until we know what the common faults were we can't spot possible issues with our engines. It would be nice if car companies were more open about faults and listed possible fixes on a publically searchable database like software companies do...

Rattle coming from engine head when idling and warm = blocked oil way, fix = head cleaning

Cause and effect = fix

[Simon Dean]

Great topic. Really been looking hard at Toyota Avensis and would love to go Diesel - it gives me three reasons to upgrade my current hugely reliable Nissan - it gives me better economy, a smarter car and at least initially, less rattly.

But the problems reported with the D-4D leave me very worried and make me want to run away from Toyota. Well, at least until the second hand Valvematic Petrol engines come into my price range.

Do the problems with gaskets and warping heads just appear out of nowhere, or is it that people treat their cars badly, ie, not checking coolant, oil, not doing regular fluid changes, and finding that things just seize, like the water pump, causing a head gasket failure? Or is this totally random?

Also, does this affect cars of a certain vintage, or is the entire D-4D engine range affected upto current day? Is this problem in 2007 and earlier Avensis for example, and not in 2008 and above? Have they made a design change to resolve the issue? Do the engine rebuilds fix the issue, and if not, is that work guaranteed?

Thanks

Simon

[Davrav]

Have you read Charlie's original post on the first page Simon?

Most of your questions are answered there.

If regular checking is carried out, then the symptoms are usually spotted but, if those checks are ignored, then I guess any failure would be a surprise.

Poor running, excessive oil consumption, lack of power, lower MPG, overheating, loss of coolant, coolant sprayed out of the expansion tank, discoloured coolant, engine warning lights are all signs.

Some rebuilds/replacements have had further issues but Toyota have, up to now, been supportive beyond what one would normally expect from a manufacturer and have done second rebuilds/replacements.

Production changes were carried out initially and the engine has benefitted from a re-design. Not sure of the exact details - Anchorman and Charlie are the folk to ask about that though, again, Charlie's first post in the thread covers details of affected engine dates/models

AFAIK the warranty on a replacement is one year.

[Simon Dean]

Thanks Davrav,

Yeah, I did read the post. Im aware of the issues, what I was trying to ask, somewhat unsuccessfully, are whether these problems are part of a faulty engine design or whether it's down to poor maintenance and abuse of the vehicle being used as a high mileage company car for example by a rep who hasn't a clue.

So never mind being spotted, can the faults/symptoms be prevented by someone like me doing regular oil and filter changes, changing the coolant regularly, keeping an eye on the temperature guage and being careful when no hot air comes through the vent etc. This seems to affect only some engines, so there must be something that can done to help prevent the problem occurring in the first place to prolong the life of the vehicle.

If it is a faulty design, has the fault been rectified on faulty engines? If not, what's to stop the problem reoccurring in another few years. I've heard of people who have had replacement engines that have gone wrong again. That's my greatest concern, that if I bought a second hand Avensis, two to three years down the line outside of the extended warranty, I could end up having a major engine failure and being unable to finance a repair.

Hence, have they resolved the issue on newer vehicles?

Thanks

Simon

[Tony Barnsley]

The 'fix' has been incorporated into the new engines from Late 2008 (???) certainly 2009 engines. I must admit it did worry me hearing about these problems, but every Toyota I wanted to buy has the 2AD engine. I therefore decided to bite the bullet and accept the risk, even though I have now heard from Charlie that Toyota GB are possibly pulling the plug on the 7Year / 100000 Mile goodwill warranty extension. I have 12 months Approved warranty remaining so will be keeping a very careful watch on the engine during that time.

[CharlieFarlie]

........................

[cabcurtains]

I think you do right Charlie, people need to be aware. Kill a 2AD through no fault of your own and get no support would cripple most people. If the warranty situation is reviewed and it was to be pulled people should be informed so they can make a decision or at least put extra effort into the preventative maintenance. If it remains as is then people have no worries, 7yrs/112k is superb.

Most likely it wouldnt be something that wouldnt get a press release! There would be a lot of people on here expecting to walk in with their cars and get them fixed FOC.

I am glad to be out of mine, it was going to happen this year anyway but if it all kicks off prices will take an even harder hit in the trade i suspect.

[Mistermena]

I believe that you've taken the correct approach here Charlie. We've spoken about this (And other issues) at great lenghts in the past,and I agree that the salent points should be made known to owners and potention buyers of any Toyota that has a 2AD power unit. The old adage... Buyers beware! springs to mind. If people dont want the take notice of what you and I (And others) have been saying for quite sometime now, on there head be it.

I for one raise my glass to you for taking the time and effort to make people aware of some of the issues surrounding the 2AD engine. If people dont like what they read!... Well thats upto them.

[jedi134]

Just wait what happens when there's no warranty left, you think its bad now.......in 2 to 3 years this forum will be full of horror stories.......so IMHO its right to keep the boring engine thread alive...........

Also make sure your dealership is putting the right oil in your engine, as many are not.