Toyota Raise The Bar Re Oil Consumption

[Mistermena]

I to have had more cars than I should had to be fair! 26 being driving school cars! But I've never had any cars that suffer from excessive oil usage!... Now maybe thats because I've always serviced the car at twice the manufactures recomendations for oil and filter changes! or it could be that I've always used very good synth oils! I really dont know...

[Jozsef]

Some 2.2d have been given exchange engines from Toyota because of oil burning problems.

Dave... I read the forum too, I know about the oil consumption problems (about other problems too that are present in the D-CAT motors). I want to know why Mr T changed the original standards? I would be really disappointed if we lost this chance as well, us D-CAT owners!

Jozsef

[dervdave]

Some 2.2d have been given exchange engines from Toyota because of oil burning problems.

Dave... I read the forum too

Ok I misunderstood what you were after.

[anchorman]

Here we go again trashing everything Toyota despite the majority of owners with new engines not panicking because a new un-bedded engine has used some synthetic oil. Actually, the original requirement was for 0.5 litre per 1000 kms NOT 1000 miles. So we have gone from 1 litre per 1242 miles to 1 litre per 1000 miles probably because it is easier to ask the customer to watch out for a thousand miles than 1242 and certainly it will be no measurable difference in the result. BIG DEAL.

So lets all do the obvious irrational thing and immediately trade or Toyotas despite most owners being not at all concerned about their new free engine and go buy some other make that will definitely have no problems and even if they did will give a lifetime no quibble warranty.

OR we can settle down and wait for evidence of this overwhelming new instruction and whether it changes Toyotas already astounding response to this problem.

New engine warranty.pdf

[CharlieFarlie]

Sorry Don But I get informed of a change so I come on the Forum and discuss ??

Is that not what forums are about ? Or would You rather nothing was said ??

To those of Us (Many) that have 2AD engines that are either affected or not then sorry this is a big issue....

Where have I trashed ANYTHING Toyota. Or given anything but glowing praise to their response and way of dealing with this or any other situation ???

As for panicking about an unbedded in engine burning oil please explain.. WHY it burnt NO oil for 5000 miles then started burning again?

I offered up all information right down to the make and grade of oil and at first You suggested changing the oil again for Semi synthetic.. The a few posts later said it would make no difference and explained why !!! Confused ??? Err Yeh...

Service Manger says the engine should not be burning oil at all after 8K miles especially in view of its lack of thirst during the first 5000 miles..

Never have I claimed that moving to a different brand of vehicle would mean no problems whatsoever but one thin is a absolute definite..... NO car I have ever had before has ever given so much grief.. And that includes Many Jaguars and other cars that often get slagged for poor quality...

Despite this I still like the car !! How !Removed! ridiculous is that !!!

[anchorman]

Sorry Don But I get informed of a change so I come on the Forum and discuss ??

Is that not what forums are about ? Or would You rather nothing was said ??

I prefer us to react to facts and so far I haven't seen any.

To those of Us (Many) that have 2AD engines that are either affected or not then sorry this is a big issue....

I have overseen the fitting of 4 engines so far and none of them have this issue but as far as I know none of them have changed to synthetic oil. If they did go to synthetic I would warn them not to worry about oil consumption, especially in the first 10,000 miles. I ran a 2AD for three and a half years that consumed a lot of oil. I knew it used oil and just kept an eye on it. I eventually changed it for a 2010 model with the new 2AD engine. I now have another one the same after running a Kia for a year. Niether of the latter used any semi-synthetic oil (shcm does much more mileage than me and reports his uses a little between services but mine only does about 5k a year). The pistins and rings, the sealing of sump and crank and the cylinder head gasket on these post 2010 models are exactly the same as the ones in yours and all the other 3/4 engines currently being fitted. There is a difference in the block to aid breathing and some engines come with a new block if the returned engine stock is depleted. It shouldn't make much difference to the oil consumption.

Where have I trashed ANYTHING Toyota. Or given anything but glowing praise to their response and way of dealing with this or any other situation ???

This thread has raised concerns with several owners who may have a new engine or are in the process of getting one. All I would say is that I doubt anything has broken inside your engine to cause it to use oil and maybe, just maybe your tests haven't gone on long enough to fully understand what is happening.

As for panicking about an unbedded in engine burning oil please explain.. WHY it burnt NO oil for 5000 miles then started burning again?

I cannot answer this without all the facts. I know that changing from semi-synthetic to fully synthetic will probably cause it and suggested you try it with semi-synthetic again but there is no chance and the car complete with new engine is condemed.

I offered up all information right down to the make and grade of oil and at first You suggested changing the oil again for Semi synthetic.. The a few posts later said it would make no difference and explained why !!! Confused ??? Err Yeh...

Not sure what you mean by this but I would be happy to elaborate if you can point me to it.

Service Manger says the engine should not be burning oil at all after 8K miles especially in view of its lack of thirst during the first 5000 miles..

I accept what the dealer has said in that it "shouldn't" use oil but these people are rarely engineers and rarely understand engineering principles. I have had some bewildering conversations with service receptionists but it just helps me identify the people I always ask for.

Never have I claimed that moving to a different brand of vehicle would mean no problems whatsoever but one thin is a absolute definite..... NO car I have ever had before has ever given so much grief.. And that includes Many Jaguars and other cars that often get slagged for poor quality...

We all enjoy a debate and new info is priceless but in my years of testing vehicles I have learned to never assume and never react until something is understood. If you walk into a vehicle manufacturers engineering department and make a claim they will not even raise an eyebrow or put their brew down unless you have some substantial evidence.

Despite this I still like the car !! How !Removed! ridiculous is that !!!

They are very nice motors and a lot of people have spent a lot of money or are still paying for them. They can't afford to opt out so readily and can be very concerned about stuff like this. I am only trying to instill some balance to the situation and urge people not to be concerned and not to think they must sell the car and even if it does use some oil after renewal it will settle down and the rest of the rebuild will ensure many years of trouble free motoring - just like Toyota want you to have. They have gone to a lot of trouble to limit liability and are not looking for more.

[shcm]

(shcm does much more mileage than me and reports his uses a little between services but mine only does about 5k a year).

I've been measuring it. Now approx 0.5l over 1700 miles. BUT, it has very clingy full synthetic in it. Next change it is going to get something with a mineral base, if I can get it and arrange it.

[jedi134]

So thats around 3L to 10.2k miles?

Still not brillient.....for a new motor with how much on`th clock?

[anchorman]

It isn't brilliant, you are quite correct. However, My last RAV which was new in March 2010 didn't move off the full mark in 4400 miles and this one hasn't moved yet although it is early days. I guess it has done about 700 miles on the current semi synthetic and so far doesn't appear to have moved off full.

I will do it the other way around. I have 12 litres of Shell fully synthetic 10W/40 and will try that but probably not until the back end of summer. So far it has not even turned colour and is really hard to see (yes it is there).

Question to Charlie. When you checked the oil and found it had gone down, had it changed colour or was it still clear (ish)?

[CharlieFarlie]

It isn't brilliant, you are quite correct. However, My last RAV which was new in March 2010 didn't move off the full mark in 4400 miles and this one hasn't moved yet although it is early days. I guess it has done about 700 miles on the current semi synthetic and so far doesn't appear to have moved off full.

I will do it the other way around. I have 12 litres of Shell fully synthetic 10W/40 and will try that but probably not until the back end of summer. So far it has not even turned colour and is really hard to see (yes it is there).

Question to Charlie. When you checked the oil and found it had gone down, had it changed colour or was it still clear (ish)?

Still pretty clear but it is a little darker than before.. Blimey its hard to describe ..

The oil that was in the engine stayed very clear indeed for around 3500 or so miles the gradually went darker but not black.

I then changed the oil for Castrol GTX Magnatec 5w30 Fully synth. This started to darken after just a few hundred miles and is now dark but not black after 3000 miles in the sump. Its now about the same colour as the Oil I dropped out at that 5000 mile change...

[anchorman]

The early engines went black in no time which is mainly down to carbon getting down past the rings. If the carbon isn't getting past then it suggests that the pistons are behaving as designed. We now know that shcm's engine uses synthetic oil and mine (2 examples of the same thing) doesn't use any noticeable semi synthetic oil.

I once had a chat with one of the technical guys at Morris's and he said that synthetic oil is so good at clinging to surfaces that is capable of not being fully wiped by the oil control rings and as a result the oil simply gets into the upper cylinder and is burned.

Charlie.

It really is up to you but if you like the car and prefer to keep it then I really do urge you to change the oil for semi syntheic or just ignore the consumption. The main thing is that with all the latest spec mods, the engine should be as durable as a post 2009 2AD like mine, shcm's and Hoovie's. I will send you some Morris's if the experiment helps to restore your confidence but on the other hand if you really have just lost confidence and patience then I fully understand that you want to try your hand at something else.

[CharlieFarlie]

Thanks Don. I can pick some Semi synth up locally but which make should I get ? If I am to try this and I'm well up for a try then lets get it right ??

As I have no facilities up here would it be OK if I just drained the oil and left the filter in place ? I realise that not all the oil will come out from the filter body but its going to be a pain trying to remove and re install the filter lay on the floor...

[CharlieFarlie]

Is this the correct oil ??

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/5ltr-Morris-5w30-Multivis-Semi-Synthetic-/170722510985?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item27bfdac889#ht_1942wt_864

Can You remind Me how much it needs ???

Thanks !!

Charlie.

[shcm]

I once had a chat with one of the technical guys at Morris's and he said that synthetic oil is so good at clinging to surfaces that is capable of not being fully wiped by the oil control rings and as a result the oil simply gets into the upper cylinder and is burned.

Which is what I wonder is happening with mine, as the oil is relatively clean.

Is this the correct oil ??

http://www.ebay.co.u...9#ht_1942wt_864

Can You remind Me how much it needs ???

It would be OK for non-DCAT engines. I can't remember what the earlier service data sheet said (and I don't have access to it at the moment), but later service datasheet (attached) specifies a C2 oil. That oil will be B1 probably.

It needs 5.9l inc filter or 5.5l not inc filter. It's on the service data sheet.

sds.pdf

[CharlieFarlie]

Thanks .. Glad I asked ...

[Hoovie]

Got a couple of questions and this seems an appropriate place to ask them ...

What is a recommended interval for oil changes? Not asking what the official Service Period is (e.e 10k), but what does your owner experience and knowledge say, Don? Is there a value in doing an regular interim Oil and Filter at 5k/6 months?

Is there a way to tell what oil is currently in the car? the oil in mine should now be around 1,400 miles old (and car has 11,200 on the clock) so can I tell by looking at all?

[CharlieFarlie]

Here are some pics of the oil as dipped this morning..

This pic shows the current level.. It was bang on the full mark 150 miles ago..

These ones show the colour both on the stick and dispersed across the finger. The oil still feels In grade...

In My opinion the oil is what I would call black . I was dismayed to see how far the level has dropped again bearing in mind it was bang on the full mark just 150 miles ago.. The levels are always checked before the engine is started first thing in the morning and on level ground in the same spot.

[CharlieFarlie]

Here are some pics of the oil as dipped this morning..

This pic shows the current level.. It was bang on the full mark 150 miles ago..

These ones show the colour both on the stick and dispersed across the finger. The oil still feels In grade...

In My opinion the oil is what I would call black . I was dismayed to see how far the level has dropped again bearing in mind it was bang on the full mark just 150 miles ago.. The levels are always checked before the engine is started first

Got a couple of questions and this seems an appropriate place to ask them ... What is a recommended interval for oil changes? Not asking what the official Service Period is (e.e 10k), but what does your owner experience and knowledge say, Don? Is there a value in doing an regular interim Oil and Filter at 5k/6 months? Is there a way to tell what oil is currently in the car? the oil in mine should now be around 1,400 miles old (and car has 11,200 on the clock) so can I tell by looking at all?

Got a couple of questions and this seems an appropriate place to ask them ... What is a recommended interval for oil changes? Not asking what the official Service Period is (e.e 10k), but what does your owner experience and knowledge say, Don? Is there a value in doing an regular interim Oil and Filter at 5k/6 months? Is there a way to tell what oil is currently in the car? the oil in mine should now be around 1,400 miles old (and car has 11,200 on the clock) so can I tell by looking at all?

Got a couple of questions and this seems an appropriate place to ask them ... What is a recommended interval for oil changes? Not asking what the official Service Period is (e.e 10k), but what does your owner experience and knowledge say, Don? Is there a value in doing an regular interim Oil and Filter at 5k/6 months? Is there a way to tell what oil is currently in the car? the oil in mine should now be around 1,400 miles old (and car has 11,200 on the clock) so can I tell by looking at all?

Got a couple of questions and this seems an appropriate place to ask them ... What is a recommended interval for oil changes? Not asking what the official Service Period is (e.e 10k), but what does your owner experience and knowledge say, Don? Is there a value in doing an regular interim Oil and Filter at 5k/6 months? Is there a way to tell what oil is currently in the car? the oil in mine should now be around 1,400 miles old (and car has 11,200 on the clock) so can I tell by looking at all?

thing in the morning and on level ground in the same spot.

[CharlieFarlie]

Got a couple of questions and this seems an appropriate place to ask them ...

What is a recommended interval for oil changes? Not asking what the official Service Period is (e.e 10k), but what does your owner experience and knowledge say, Don? Is there a value in doing an regular interim Oil and Filter at 5k/6 months?

Is there a way to tell what oil is currently in the car? the oil in mine should now be around 1,400 miles old (and car has 11,200 on the clock) so can I tell by looking at all?

Mate I would never leave the oil in a diesel for 10,000 miles. All the vans and cars I've had have been oil changed at 5,000 miles every time !

[jedi134]

That oil looks like black coffee and will probably do as much good. :D get some 5w/40 on ya fingers and feel the difference. I really dont think all these 5w/30 oil are up to spec even the manufactures say they are. Like I said once I went to a motor factors and he had 20 different 5w/30 oils with different specs???????????

As far as I can remember my sisters Volvo which was drinking fully synth 5w/30 at a silly rate also..........I replaced with what the manufacturer specified MB xxxxxxxx something or other.............and out of the 20 or so 5w/30 oils I looked at only 1 had the right numbers on it............ and guess what it was a semi synth, and not a major brand either, think it was Comma.

The semi has reduced its consumption.............sister says I dont have to top up as much!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Next service 5w/40 is going in 100%.................but i`ll try fully synth 5w/40 which may have the same viscocity as a 5w/30 semi synth?????

Charlie does the oil smell burnt?

[CharlieFarlie]

That oil looks like black coffee and will probably do as much good. :D get some 5w/40 on ya fingers and feel the difference. I really dont think all these 5w/30 oil are up to spec even the manufactures say they are. Like I said once I went to a motor factors and he had 20 different 5w/30 oils with different specs???????????

As far as I can remember my sisters Volvo which was drinking fully synth 5w/30 at a silly rate also..........I replaced with what the manufacturer specified MB xxxxxxxx something or other.............and out of the 20 or so 5w/30 oils I looked at only 1 had the right numbers on it............ and guess what it was a semi synth, and not a major brand either, think it was Comma.

The semi has reduced its consumption.............sister says I dont have to top up as much!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Next service 5w/40 is going in 100%.................but i`ll try fully synth 5w/40 which may have the same viscocity as a 5w/30 semi synth?????

Charlie does the oil smell burnt?

Dont know I never sniffed it !!

[jedi134]

You should always have a sniff mate!!

[shcm]

Here are some pics of the oil as dipped this morning..

This pic shows the current level.. It was bang on the full mark 150 miles ago..

Yep, appears to be a fair bit of oil for just 150 miles and dirty for a modern diesel. Mine is still relatively clean.

Earlier service data sheet attached, which is less specific about the oil. Best look in the handbook.

sds200511.pdf

[CharlieFarlie]

Here are some pics of the oil as dipped this morning..

This pic shows the current level.. It was bang on the full mark 150 miles ago..

Yep, appears to be a fair bit of oil for just 150 miles and dirty for a modern diesel. Mine is still relatively clean.

Earlier service data sheet attached, which is less specific about the oil. Best look in the handbook.

sds200511.pdf

I'm fairly sure the engine is burning more oil now than before the engine change.. The 150 miles since the last top up were all local around town miles..

Before the last swap the old engine was not burning much oil at all around town but burning a larger amount when on the motorway. This according the the Service manager is quite normal IE not much oil consumption around town but increased when at higher motorway speed.

I really wish I could share Dons belief that many of the service personnel have little idea of what they are on about.. But this Guy is a ex Technician and You just have to trust Me when I tell You that He really is a very sensible and knowledgeable person...

I offered All of the information including the exact brand grade and viscosity of the oil to Toyota to both the Service Manager ( Who then spoke to two of the technicians for a second opinion) And Toyota GB.

All the above conclude that the engine should Not be burning a noticeable amount of say 1/2 an inch down the dipstick between services.. Which I take to understand is 10 to 12 thousand miles.

I honestly wish a change to Semi Synth would cure the problem. I was absolutely gutted when I pulled the dipstick out this morning and saw just how far it had dropped again.

I am completely and total depressed over this situation with the car.. Since getting the engine replaced I have spent a fair wedge of money on various kit Like a new set of wheels and tyres £1500. the Tuning kit £ 270. lots of other bits and bobs that add up to another 4 0r 500 quid.. Plus the 300 quid I elected to pay for a new clutch assembly....

I really thought I had a well sorted car. Instead its turning out to be a !Removed! nightmare.....

On the plus side maybe My next car wont have loads of squeeks and rattles from the interior. The drivers seat is now creaking whenever I negotiate right hand corners ! Creaking steering. And hopefully a few less trips and hours spent on the phone to the dealers or Toyota GB ( Both Who have been exceptional I have to say)

[jedi134]

I really wish I could share Dons belief that many of the service personnel have little idea of what they are on about.. But this Guy is a ex Technician and You just have to trust Me when I tell You that He really is a very sensible and knowledgeable person...

I am 100% with Don on this.............that old "Im an ex Techy" Bull I heared when I was in nappies.......The amount of times I have heard that one :censor: Some even go to the lenghts of calling themselves "super techys"..........Pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!! no more of your waffle.

But im told there not all the same

I was absolutely gutted when I pulled the dipstick out this morning and saw just how far it had dropped again.

Have you tried Viagra? :P