Toyota Raise The Bar Re Oil Consumption

[jedi134]

But on a serious note Charlie!!! I would drop that oil like a brick and put some 5w/40 in, thats what I would do it it was my car just to see if its an oil issue...............if you dont like the sound of that I would put 5w/30 semi synth in as Anchs says.

But what you have put it the engine obviously does not like it............I dont think you would need to take the filter off, as im pretty sure it wont hold that much oil...............But check with Anchs!!!

[anchorman]

Sorry - I couldn't get to the computer sooner.

The Morris's oil you found is B2 but that is exactly what RRG supplied for Guy's T180 which is the same as yours. The call for C2 didn't come till the post 2009 D-Cat models.

So! That Morris's will be fine and as the filter only holds 0.4 Litres it should be fine. As Yoda says it will still contain some residual oil inside the engine anyway. The trouble is that it will still be 0.5 litre short as it will need 5.5 litres without the filter. You can either buy 10 litres or maybe they do a 1 litre bottle. The other alternative is to call here on your way down to the Midlands and I will do it for you over my pit. I will also find the extra bit to top up from your 5 litre tub.

I really think it will cure it and will eat humble pie if not. For the cost of the oil it is certainly cheaper than a new motor.

Yoda is convinced that the answer is a 40 grade oil and although it fits within the spec, your engine is designed for 30 grade so you are better with lower viscosity.

Just try Charlie to shut me up!!! You have invested so much and you are so near to getting it right.

Regards

Ancs

[CharlieFarlie]

Don I would love to run past Yours on the way down but I have to drive 370 miles to Cambridge and then another 140 miles to My Sons in the Midlands so time will not allow..

You have not commented on the colour of the oil ?? Does it look right for oil that has been in the sump for 3000 miles ?

[jedi134]

Don I would love to run past Yours on the way down but I have to drive 370 miles to Cambridge and then another 140 miles to My Sons in the Midlands so time will not allow..

The rate you engine is consuming oil you will have to stop and Top up whether you like it or not.

[Jozsef]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Toyota-EU-RAV4-2-2-D4-D-D-CAT-2006-2009-5L-Engine-Oil-Millers-LL-5w30-/110763983022?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item19ca0c40ae

The point: Spec : API SM, CF ACEA A3/B4, C2, C3

Your oil too black, too dirty, too thin (perhaps mixed with fuel?) and too little.

Jozsef

[jedi134]

http://www.ebay.co.u...=item19ca0c40ae

The point: Spec : API SM, CF ACEA A3/B4, C2, C3

Your oil too black, too dirty, too thin (perhaps mixed with fuel?) and too little.

Jozsef

Why do Toyota not have any of these more advanced specs like most other Manufacturers have???

BMW LL04, MB 229.51, VW 504.00/507.00, GM LL-A-025/B-025 PSA B71 2290

They just call for basic numbers? Do Toyota do a rigorous oil test on their engines?

As far as Im aware those special specs call for special extra additives for each specific engine?

Like the PD oil for VW diesels called for a 505.01 spec oil, as opposed to the 505.00 oil, if it did not have the .01 spec extra anti shear additive the cams would wear out in no time.

[CharlieFarlie]

http://www.ebay.co.u...=item19ca0c40ae

The point: Spec : API SM, CF ACEA A3/B4, C2, C3

Your oil too black, too dirty, too thin (perhaps mixed with fuel?) and too little.

Jozsef

But Mate. Thats a fully synthetic ??? If I had fuel getting into the oil surely the level would rise ??

[anchorman]

That isn't fuel in the oil. They have changed the dipstick from polished to a textured finish to stop it from dispersing like that. It is a real !Removed! to read sometimes. Use a bit of fine emery to create a dull surface Charlie.

The oil is darker than I expected so maybe it is washing down the bores and getting back past the rings to the sump. As I said previously, my last 150 engine had barely changed colour after 4400 miles.

Don't use the millers as that is Fully Synthetic.

[Jozsef]

Charlie,

It doesn't matter if it's fully synth or semi synth. The only thing that matters is if it's C2 or C3. If it has a low ash content, the the sulphur and phosphorous contents are going to be low as well. (e.g. Mobil 1 ESP). Yes, if you add fuel the the level will rise... but your oil is too thin... if it wasn't this thin originally, then only the fuel could change its viscosity.

Jozsef

[jedi134]

The oil is darker than I expected so maybe it is washing down the bores and getting back past the rings to the sump. As I said previously, my last 150 engine had barely changed colour after 4400 miles.

Do you mean the oil is running down the valve stems, into the piston housing, then past the piston and rings and then dropping back into the sump?

[Jozsef]

:)

Ok Mate, Sorry!

Anc told: "Don't use the millers as that is Fully Synthetic."

The decision is in your hand!

Jozsef

[anchorman]

Jedi

Not exactly. Alrady stated that the oil can cling to surfaces better than any other oil - that is why it has superior lubricating properties. It can even easily lubricate racing engines where turbo temps get up to 1000 C. It can get into the upper cylinder where some is lost to burning but if any residue is left after the power stroke it would then get to the lower side of the piston complete with any carbon deposits.

Jozef

I don't know how you can determine how "thin" oil is from a photo. That is how it settles on a polished surface.

The low ash requirement for oil has only come on the latest Euro 5 D-CAT engines. Charlies is a Euro 4.

[jedi134]

I found this an interesting read on oils etc...a bit long winded but very informative.

Some extracts if I may.......

"in modern designs engines, there are also passageways through the rods which carry oil from the rod bearings to the rod-piston connections and lubricate the contacting surfaces between the piston rings and interior surfaces of the cylinders."

This facinated me I didnt know this, is this why the thin oils are needed?

ILSAC

"A new set of specifications, GF-5,^[13] took effect in October 2010. The industry has one year to convert their oils to GF-5 and in September 2011, ILSAC will no longer offer licensing for GF-4."

The poor oil companys are being hurried into producing this next eco friendly tree hugging oil, mistake will creep in IMO

OEM standards divergence

"By the early 1990s, many of the European original equipment manufacturer (OEM) car manufacturers resigned on the lacklustre direction of the American API oil standards as it did not perform to the needs of a motor oil to be used in their motors and seriously lagged in development of the previous generations. As a result many leading European motor manufacturers created and developed their own "OEM" oil standards which were no longer directly compatible with the plain API"

"Fundamental weakness of the generic standards always was that it only served as an assurance of a given minimal performance of the lubricant. Never there was any additional specification that would demand some key parameters to be for example 30% better, as a basis for a future specification"

"Because of the need for motor oils with unique qualities, many modern cars for the European market will demand a specific OEM-only oil standard. As a result, it may make no reference at all to ACEA or API standards. This is case of VW pumpe-düse diesel engines, as the manufacturer cannot guarantee longevity and reliability of a certain engine components without adherence to the specification"

"Certain BP Vanellus oil certified for MB228.5 standard had sulfated ash content around 2%, thus providing superior piston ring protection as a side-effect. Such oils were originally marketed for heavy trucking use (100000 miles change interval) and other "long life" oils are likely to be of similar grade"

As far as I can see Toyota has no Specific oil specs? they rely on the generic basic specs

[Mistermena]

It seems strange to me that Toyota dont have specific oil gardes as the likes of BMW. Merc's ect have! Citroen and VW have quite stringent requirements such as the VW 507 00 specs for the Pd (TDi) engines. Strange that Toyota haven't adopted this line reguarding there lubs!!!...

[jedi134]

Strange that Toyota haven't adopted this line reguarding there lubs!!!...

Yes very strange? Their engines cant run on supermarket fuel, but can run on the sh!ttest oils available APL standard?

[Jozsef]

This is my oil, after 4700 miles.

[blue monster]

Just a quick update on mine - as stated previously we done about 3.5k since the new engine and then I found that I had to top up by 500ml.

500 miles later I had to put about 300ml in it. I checked it last weekend which was then 500 miles futher on than the last top up and it was still completely full. By this weekend we will have completed another 500 miles and I am hoping that I do not need to put any oil in which would back up Don's theory of the new engine using/burning fully synthetic oil until the rings bed in properly as I have been using Mobil 1 ESP 5w30.

[blue monster]

Just a quick update on mine - as stated previously we done about 3.5k since the new engine and then I found that I had to top up by 500ml.

500 miles later I had to put about 300ml in it. I checked it last weekend which was then 500 miles futher on than the last top up and it was still completely full. By this weekend we will have completed another 500 miles and I am hoping that I do not need to put any oil in which would back up Don's theory of the new engine using/burning fully synthetic oil until the rings bed in properly as I have been using Mobil 1 ESP 5w30.

One thing to note is that the oil is not black but not crystal clear either - this is very different from our X-Trail where the oil used to go black like tar within 500 miles of an oil change & that had done less than 20k from new!!

[Parts-King]

Toyota don't have an oil of their own for one specific reason, it is not required! If it was required they would have one and that is not the case at this moment in time. With all the hoo harr about the 2AD engine, I'm sure the top engineers would specify a new oil if needed, it is clearly not needed, the spec is 5W30 Premium Fuel Efficient (PFE) TGMO 5W 30 API CF; ACEA A5/B5 C2 semi synthetic

I am an old cynic, to me, the fully synthetics might be better in certain circumstances for certain cars BUT in the back of my mind I am always thinking about the marketing. We as consumers are always pushed to the higher spec product, its better for our health, lifestyle, bla bla bla, it's also better for the bottom line profit of the company promoting it too. If people want to spend more than is required, then by all means do it, it's your money. I am not convinced one little bit by the marketing, the manufacturer does NOT require a fully synthetic oil, they require the spec above and that is good enough for me until such time as they change their minds. I shall keep advising my customers of the correct grade required by Toyota and not by the marketing department of huge oil companies

Kingo

[CharlieFarlie]

Martin I understand completely what You are saying.. A new engine is expected to burn a little oil and this oil burning will decrease as the pistons and rings run in.....

I used to have the engines in the race bikes refreshed at the end of each racing season and that is exactly what used to happen. In fact We used to book onto a track day so We could pootle round and get the running in procedure done and out of the way....

But My engine has not followed the script ! 1st 5000 miles Not a drop ! The here We go again burning IMHO more than before !

Once again I have spoken with Toyota just this morning and they assure Me that if the engine is burning the Fully synthetic oil that I have in the sump then there IS a problem........

Their opinion is that changing the oil will make no difference..

I had genuinely hoped They would say otherwise and that a change of oil would cure this issue which frankly is really peeing Me off now...

Buts lets for a minute suppose They are wrong and all these cars that have had engine replacements have done so simply because the wrong oil has been used ?

Perhaps if They had drained all the cars that are presented with oil consumption issues and filled them with something else the problems would have gone away and saved Toyota hundreds of thousands of pounds ?

My car is booked in for its next test on the 6th feb.. Do I change the oil or simply go through the procedure as recommended by Toyota.

I greatly appreciate Everyone's help here and I really do mean that.. But if I'm honest I am more confused than ever ! For that reason I will leave it as it has been arranged. They will test and then We will see what Toyota decide to do.

[shcm]

Toyota don't have an oil of their own for one specific reason, it is not required! If it was required they would have one and that is not the case at this moment in time. With all the hoo harr about the 2AD engine, I'm sure the top engineers would specify a new oil if needed,

Somebody posting some sense. That is my view as well. Clearly they have some confidence somewhere that the engine can tolerate oil to that spec, i.e. the design is such that it is fairly tolerant.

As a design engineer, having tight specifications very often adds additional expense and you avoid it as much as you can. Lots of tight specs can indicate a poor design philosophy.

[CharlieFarlie]

Toyota don't have an oil of their own for one specific reason, it is not required! If it was required they would have one and that is not the case at this moment in time. With all the hoo harr about the 2AD engine, I'm sure the top engineers would specify a new oil if needed, it is clearly not needed, the spec is 5W30 Premium Fuel Efficient (PFE) TGMO 5W 30 API CF; ACEA A5/B5 C2 semi synthetic I am an old cynic, to me, the fully synthetics might be better in certain circumstances for certain cars BUT in the back of my mind I am always thinking about the marketing. We as consumers are always pushed to the higher spec product, its better for our health, lifestyle, bla bla bla, it's also better for the bottom line profit of the company promoting it too. If people want to spend more than is required, then by all means do it, it's your money. I am not convinced one little bit by the marketing, the manufacturer does NOT require a fully synthetic oil, they require the spec above and that is good enough for me until such time as they change their minds. I shall keep advising my customers of the correct grade required by Toyota and not by the marketing department of huge oil companies Kingo

John. My reason for using the Castrol GTX Magnatec 5w30 fully synthetic oil was based on a simple set of facts..

Firstly..

I had it in the garage. In fact I still have 20 litres of the !Removed! stuff. It was on offer at Asda and I had three Fords on the drive. All of which it is an absolute requirement to fill with 5w30 fully synthetic oil.(None of the Fords by the way burnt the oil)

Secondly.

I came onto the Forum and asked if this particular Brand,Type,And viscosity of engine oil was suitable for the Toyota 2AD engine and was told YES it was..

Thirdly.

I asked the Service department at Dunfirmline if again the Brand,Type,And viscosity was correct and They absolutely said Yes....

I did not follow marketing hype and the oil was bought in quantity as I expected to use it and it was £10 for each 4 litre container..

As for believing all the Producers say about the quality's of their products well not in My case. But I will all ways choose to use the best I can get Me grubby paws on even if it exceeds the requirements (Which My chosen oil does) rather than something cheaper which does not..

[dervdave]

Toyota don't have an oil of their own for one specific reason, it is not required! If it was required they would have one and that is not the case at this moment in time. With all the hoo harr about the 2AD engine, I'm sure the top engineers would specify a new oil if needed, it is clearly not needed,

I agree the problem with these engines hasn`t come about because of which oil is in it.

[dervdave]

I did not follow marketing hype and the oil was bought in quantity as I expected to use it and it was £10 for each 4 litre container..

Its the same oil the main dealer used in my Jag. gord knows how much I paid for it ! :o

It`ll not come in wrong.

[Parts-King]

As for believing all the Producers say about the quality's of their products well not in My case. But I will all ways choose to use the best I can get Me grubby paws on even if it exceeds the requirements (Which My chosen oil does) rather than something cheaper which does not..

My statement wasnt to get at anybody in particular Charlie. I understand why people buy a higher spec, you may well be able to get it at a bargain price, my point is that a higher spec oil might exceed what is required BUT it is not a requirement, and the higher spec MAY have a different effect on the engine. If it required a higher spec, then I have no doubt they would change the spec for this engine. The spec issued by Toyota is perfectly acceptable, there is no need to change it any more often, so that will do for me, until advised otherwise :D:

Kingo